Topic: A Message to Women From a Man: You Are Not "Crazy"
no photo
Sat 11/19/11 10:36 AM

i wish i had the desire to read all of this.
i'm guessing it has to do with women being overemotional and men telling them this?
i think it's true a lot of times actually.
now as far as the title,
why does it matter if it's a male or female telling you you're not crazy?
a lot of people are.



flowerforyou flowerforyou

I completely agree. Its true a lot of times for women, and its also true a lot of times for men.

We find both men and women that have reality issues, that argue irrationally, that are in denial, that say absurd, unfair, wrong, and crazy things that are emotionally motivated.

I see a problem when there is a pattern of invalidating someones experience or expression by saying 'they are crazy'.. but I also see a problem with people who habitually say things that are false, harmful, non-constructive...people who say crazy things.

The idea that its 'okay' to casually dismiss a womens effort to communicate her ideas is a real and concerning issue, interwoven with other aspects of sexism in our culture.







navygirl's photo
Sat 11/19/11 03:23 PM
Actually I get the opposite response from men. They think I am a cold hearted person and that I don't care. They can't figure out why I am not more nuturing; why I don't cry when someone close to me dies; why I don't get upset when they don't call, etc. I find it interesting that men are saying that they want a women to be more like them and then get upset when I do behave like them.

msharmony's photo
Sat 11/19/11 06:54 PM

so, what is the manO (condensed) version of that article ???


some people are over sensitive about being called oversensitive, and I am sensitive to their feelings,,

basically what I read into it,,lol

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Sat 11/19/11 07:08 PM
I am familiar with the film gaslight, and yes I agree that some men tend to accuse women of being "crazy" in a manipulatice fashion - it's a power thing

it's hard for a man to admit to a woman that he is wrong, and

some men will just take any opportunity to accuse a woman of being crazy to maintain an "upper hand" any opportunity to shut her down -even if there is no reason...just to have the upper hand

even if there is no personal relationship - I had this happen at work recently. I almost bumped into a coworker - a man I barely know at all - I did not see him because I was looking the other way trying to find a friend. he accused me of "losing it" because I did not know he was there - I will most likely continue to avoid him due to that comment/reaction

why could he not just accept that I did not see him??? as I was looking for another male friend of mine - what an ego maniac!!!slaphead

I have also seen men in the workplace systematically set women up who do a better job than they do for reasons of power & control

fortunately I have met men who are not like this, but if I meet a man who does these things I take it as a huge red flag

Seakolony's photo
Sat 11/19/11 07:21 PM
Edited by Seakolony on Sat 11/19/11 07:23 PM

This was an interesting article. I'd like to hear what others think.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yashar-hedayat/a-message-to-women-from-a_1_b_958859.html

A Message to Women From a Man: You Are Not "Crazy"
Posted: 9/12/11 04:34 PM ET

You're so sensitive. You're so emotional. You're defensive. You're overreacting. Calm down. Relax. Stop freaking out! You're crazy! I was just joking, don't you have a sense of humor? You're so dramatic. Just get over it already!

Sound familiar?

If you're a woman, it probably does.

Do you ever hear any of these comments from your spouse, partner, boss, friends, colleagues, or relatives after you have expressed frustration, sadness, or anger about something they have done or said?

When someone says these things to you, it's not an example of inconsiderate behavior. When your spouse shows up half an hour late to dinner without calling -- that's inconsiderate behavior. A remark intended to shut you down like, "Calm down, you're overreacting," after you just addressed someone else's bad behavior, is emotional manipulation, pure and simple.

And this is the sort of emotional manipulation that feeds an epidemic in our country, an epidemic that defines women as crazy, irrational, overly sensitive, unhinged. This epidemic helps fuel the idea that women need only the slightest provocation to unleash their (crazy) emotions. It's patently false and unfair.

I think it's time to separate inconsiderate behavior from emotional manipulation, and we need to use a word not found in our normal vocabulary.

I want to introduce a helpful term to identify these reactions: gaslighting.

Gaslighting is a term often used by mental health professionals (I am not one) to describe manipulative behavior used to confuse people into thinking their reactions are so far off base that they're crazy.

The term comes from the 1944 MGM film, Gaslight, starring Ingrid Bergman. Bergman's husband in the film, played by Charles Boyer, wants to get his hands on her jewelry. He realizes he can accomplish this by having her certified as insane and hauled off to a mental institution. To pull of this task, he intentionally sets the gaslights in their home to flicker off and on, and every time Bergman's character reacts to it, he tells her she's just seeing things. In this setting, a gaslighter is someone who presents false information to alter the victim's perception of him or herself.

Today, when the term is referenced, it's usually because the perpetrator says things like, "You're so stupid," or "No one will ever want you," to the victim. This is an intentional, pre-meditated form of gaslighting, much like the actions of Charles Boyer's character in Gaslight, where he strategically plots to confuse Ingrid Bergman's character into believing herself unhinged.

The form of gaslighting I'm addressing is not always pre-mediated or intentional, which makes it worse, because it means all of us, especially women, have dealt with it at one time or another.

Those who engage in gaslighting create a reaction -- whether it's anger, frustration, sadness -- in the person they are dealing with. Then, when that person reacts, the gaslighter makes them feel uncomfortable and insecure by behaving as if their feelings aren't rational or normal.

My friend Anna (all names changed to protect privacy) is married to a man who feels it necessary to make random and unprompted comments about her weight. Whenever she gets upset or frustrated with his insensitive comments, he responds in the same, defeating way, "You're so sensitive. I'm just joking."

My friend Abbie works for a man who finds a way, almost daily, to unnecessarily shoot down her performance and her work product. Comments like, "Can't you do something right?" or "Why did I hire you?" are regular occurrences for her. Her boss has no problem firing people (he does it regularly), so you wouldn't know from these comments that Abbie has worked for him for six years. But every time she stands up for herself and says, "It doesn't help me when you say these things," she gets the same reaction: "Relax; you're overreacting."

Abbie thinks her boss is just being a jerk in these moments, but the truth is, he is making those comments to manipulate her into thinking her reactions are out of whack. And it's exactly that kind manipulation that has left her feeling guilty about being sensitive, and as a result, she has not left her job.

But gaslighting can be as simple as someone smiling and saying something like, "You're so sensitive," to somebody else. Such a comment may seem innocuous enough, but in that moment, the speaker is making a judgment about how someone else should feel.

While dealing with gaslighting isn't a universal truth for women, we all certainly know plenty of women who encounter it at work, home, or in personal relationships.

And the act of gaslighting does not simply affect women who are not quite sure of themselves. Even vocal, confident, assertive women are vulnerable to gaslighting.

Why?

Because women bare the brunt of our neurosis. It is much easier for us to place our emotional burdens on the shoulders of our wives, our female friends, our girlfriends, our female employees, our female colleagues, than for us to impose them on the shoulders of men.

It's a whole lot easier to emotionally manipulate someone who has been conditioned by our society to accept it. We continue to burden women because they don't refuse our burdens as easily. It's the ultimate cowardice.

Whether gaslighting is conscious or not, it produces the same result: It renders some women emotionally mute.

These women aren't able to clearly express to their spouses that what is said or done to them is hurtful. They can't tell their boss that his behavior is disrespectful and prevents them from doing their best work. They can't tell their parents that, when they are being critical, they are doing more harm than good.

When these women receive any sort of push back to their reactions, they often brush it off by saying, "Forget it, it's okay."

That "forget it" isn't just about dismissing a thought, it is about self-dismissal. It's heartbreaking.

No wonder some women are unconsciously passive aggressive when expressing anger, sadness, or frustration. For years, they have been subjected to so much gaslighting that they can no longer express themselves in a way that feels authentic to them.

They say, "I'm sorry," before giving their opinion. In an email or text message, they place a smiley face next to a serious question or concern, thereby reducing the impact of having to express their true feelings.

You know how it looks: "You're late :)"

These are the same women who stay in relationships they don't belong in, who don't follow their dreams, who withdraw from the kind of life they want to live.

Since I have embarked on this feminist self-exploration in my life and in the lives of the women I know, this concept of women as "crazy" has really emerged as a major issue in society at large and an equally major frustration for the women in my life, in general.

From the way women are portrayed on reality shows, to how we condition boys and girls to see women, we have come to accept the idea that women are unbalanced, irrational individuals, especially in times of anger and frustration.

Just the other day, on a flight from San Francisco to Los Angeles, a flight attendant who had come to recognize me from my many trips asked me what I did for a living. When I told her that I write mainly about women, she immediately laughed and asked, "Oh, about how crazy we are?"

Her gut reaction to my work made me really depressed. While she made her response in jest, her question nonetheless makes visible a pattern of sexist commentary that travels through all facets of society on how men view women, which also greatly impacts how women may view themselves.

As far as I am concerned, the epidemic of gaslighting is part of the struggle against the obstacles of inequality that women constantly face. Acts of gaslighting steal their most powerful tool: their voice. This is something we do to women every day, in many different ways.

I don't think this idea that women are "crazy," is based in some sort of massive conspiracy. Rather, I believe it's connected to the slow and steady drumbeat of women being undermined and dismissed, on a daily basis. And gaslighting is one of many reasons why we are dealing with this public construction of women as "crazy."

I recognize that I've been guilty of gaslighting my women friends in the past (but never my male friends--surprise, surprise). It's shameful, but I'm glad I realized that I did it on occasion and put a stop to it.

While I take total responsibility for my actions, I do believe that I, along with many men, am a byproduct of our conditioning. It's about the general insight our conditioning gives us into admitting fault and exposing any emotion.

When we are discouraged in our youth and early adulthood from expressing emotion, it causes many of us to remain steadfast in our refusal to express regret when we see someone in pain from our actions.

When I was writing this piece, I was reminded of one of my favorite Gloria Steinem quotes, "The first problem for all of us, men and women, is not to learn, but to unlearn."

So for many of us, it's first about unlearning how to flicker those gaslights and learning how to acknowledge and understand the feelings, opinions, and positions of the women in our lives.

But isn't the issue of gaslighting ultimately about whether we are conditioned to believe that women's opinions don't hold as much weight as ours? That what women have to say, what they feel, isn't quite as legitimate?

I dealt with this most of my life from my parental units, and when I stood up, walked away, and decided not to participate in their critical behaviours( or to be tolerant and indulge their behaviour). I became disowned by most of my famlial connection on my mother's and stepfather's sides of the family. As a result of my actions, my life remains happier and less dramatic. I do not regret my decisions to walk away. My quality of life improved tenfold, when I stood up and took it back, empowering myself. Each day gets better. No one will ever play my emotions again. Emotions are natural for women, and they are entitled to feeling the whole spectrum of emotions.

PacificStar48's photo
Sat 11/19/11 07:40 PM
Edited by PacificStar48 on Sat 11/19/11 07:42 PM
Quote Seacolony ...."I dealt with this most of my life from my parental units, and when I stood up, walked away, and decided not to participate in their critical behaviours( or to be tolerant and indulge their behaviour). I became disowned by most of my famlial connection on my mother's and stepfather's sides of the family. As a result of my actions, my life remains happier and less dramatic. I do not regret my decisions to walk away. My quality of life improved tenfold, when I stood up and took it back, empowering myself. Each day gets better. No one will ever play my emotions again. Emotions are natural for women, and they are entitled to feeling the whole spectrum of emotions.


Sometimes facing facts about a toxic family and moving on with one you choose is eons better. Makes me think of the saying you get your family and pick your friends. What I have found a lot of times it is your friends, true friends, are the ones that come through way before "family".

msharmony's photo
Sat 11/19/11 08:00 PM
Edited by msharmony on Sat 11/19/11 08:00 PM
my family has always been my friends. I always count on them for truth, good or bad, including letting me know when I am overreacting (or underreacting for that matter)

I just dont take that leap from that opinion to one that I must therefore be crazy,, so perhaps its why I am unaffected by such comments

no photo
Sat 11/19/11 08:19 PM


i wish i had the desire to read all of this.
i'm guessing it has to do with women being overemotional and men telling them this?
i think it's true a lot of times actually.
now as far as the title,
why does it matter if it's a male or female telling you you're not crazy?
a lot of people are.



flowerforyou flowerforyou

I completely agree. Its true a lot of times for women, and its also true a lot of times for men.

We find both men and women that have reality issues, that argue irrationally, that are in denial, that say absurd, unfair, wrong, and crazy things that are emotionally motivated.

I see a problem when there is a pattern of invalidating someones experience or expression by saying 'they are crazy'.. but I also see a problem with people who habitually say things that are false, harmful, non-constructive...people who say crazy things.

The idea that its 'okay' to casually dismiss a womens effort to communicate her ideas is a real and concerning issue, interwoven with other aspects of sexism in our culture.









yes I can see this not being just a "male" issue but also a power issue in a more genral sense

wherever there's an "agenda" if u can't beat 'em - accuse 'em of being crazynoway

no photo
Sat 11/19/11 08:20 PM

my family has always been my friends. I always count on them for truth, good or bad, including letting me know when I am overreacting (or underreacting for that matter)

I just dont take that leap from that opinion to one that I must therefore be crazy,, so perhaps its why I am unaffected by such comments


good comment

I love my fam because they are the "fam"

but some are also my friends as well as fam - those are truly treasures

no photo
Sat 11/19/11 08:44 PM
Hey mano,,the condensed version,,,men give women excuses for their behavior and put it back on them, or belittle them as a means to over-look their rejections to seeing it their fault!,,Pretty much...

Then,,one must realize that no shoe fits everyone,,,as has been said in this post,,women do this as well, to men?

So breaking everything down here, MANY OF US, have underlined issues that offend other's, EVEN if the truth of its subject IS correct, SOME of us "CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"...

As to women in general being called names that make THEM seen odd or to be looked at as odd through some words men have used to describe them,(nuts, crazy, not all there, simple-minded, dumb, stupid, insane, OH,,sorry,,I guess you get it..lol)
Personally I THINK,,that old school men used these terms at ANY time, THEY FELT THIS WAY,,,because THEY(MEN) had NO IDEA WHAT THEIR LADY WAS MAD ABOUT?,,SO they simplified that thinking (BECAUSE MEN ARE NOT STUPID,-LOL) and so women back then didn't speak UP,,so the guys all got by with that. NOW, you have guys growing of all ages who STILL have those old school ways and expressions all being heard as THEY GREW,,(Uncle's, GRAND DADS, BROTHERS,) all keeping that ideology alive and intact,,in their common expressions about their wives or others?
Bottom-line is....it all depends on that person,,and what they were taught to believe and say?
To me ANY WORDS used to describe someone else,,should NEVER be a word that when said,,,MAKES IT SOUNDS LIKE THEIR A LOWER GRADE OF PERSON THAN YOU!
MANY WOMEN NOW, think its OK,,or COOL to be called a Bitccch, and MANY NOW refer to each other with calling them THAT!
Or a sluuuuuuuuut,,,,and that same goes for that slang word..
Again, personally,,THATS WRONG IN MY THOUGHTS...
I mean PLEASE FOLKS,,,how in the hell can I THINK and SAY I love a person in one phrase of speech, then in my next phrase,call them a name which replies to a dog,,or a person who sleeps with EVERYONE?
I guess maybe THATS the old school in me,,But,,thats my ways..

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Sat 11/19/11 08:52 PM
I do not know any women who want to be called biotches or crazy or sluts

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Sat 11/19/11 09:27 PM

I do not know any women who want to be called biotches or crazy or sluts
Really?,,wow,,,and I thought I was of older thoughts,,lol.
There isn't anyone I have been around,,just HEARING THEM TALK,,who hasn't made those words SEEM like a pleasant passing?
When I have heard them used..its almost like YOU GO GIRL!
When I hear a woman tell another non-salient,,your such a sluuuut!
or Hey, I'm a sluuuuuut, OK?,,,
Its very spoken in the public places I frequent,,truck-stops and fast food joints?
And it JUMPS OUT at me everytime I hear it mentioned,,as I don't like them said in bad ways or FUN ways?
Its kind-of like the N-word,,there is NO TIME for it to be used in my mind? Yet many use IT like its just a saying,,of COOL!
But it degrades in my mind,,,no-matter its use..

navygirl's photo
Sun 11/20/11 01:27 AM

my family has always been my friends. I always count on them for truth, good or bad, including letting me know when I am overreacting (or underreacting for that matter)

I just dont take that leap from that opinion to one that I must therefore be crazy,, so perhaps its why I am unaffected by such comments


Totally agree. I have found from my own experience that family and friends will give my a totally unbiased opinion compared to someone that I am dating or being in a relationship with.

Seakolony's photo
Sun 11/20/11 04:36 AM

my family has always been my friends. I always count on them for truth, good or bad, including letting me know when I am overreacting (or underreacting for that matter)

I just dont take that leap from that opinion to one that I must therefore be crazy,, so perhaps its why I am unaffected by such comments

This is a great comment MSHARMONY, because here you show this difference between constructual criticism and constant criticism meant to tear down a prson's self-esteem.

And it does happen to both men and women alike, constructual criticism and constant criticism that tears at their self-esteem.

navygirl's photo
Mon 11/21/11 01:50 PM


my family has always been my friends. I always count on them for truth, good or bad, including letting me know when I am overreacting (or underreacting for that matter)

I just dont take that leap from that opinion to one that I must therefore be crazy,, so perhaps its why I am unaffected by such comments

This is a great comment MSHARMONY, because here you show this difference between constructual criticism and constant criticism meant to tear down a prson's self-esteem.

And it does happen to both men and women alike, constructual criticism and constant criticism that tears at their self-esteem.


And sometimes there is a fine line between constructual and constant criticism. I have always found family and friends to be fair in that department but not a boyfriend. They are usually the critical type. I often wonder if they did this just to make themselves either feel better about themself or they wanted to feel superior to me?

livenlaughbaby's photo
Thu 11/24/11 04:08 AM
Great article. It's presently changing my life.

actionlynx's photo
Thu 11/24/11 05:26 AM
Honestly, I have seen men be the targets of gas-lighting much more often than the article recognizes. In fact, I've seen it happen right here on Mingle2. I wish I could direct all of you to the evidence to support my claim, but that would violate Forum rules. So I hope all of you will just recognize it when you see it.

A big to-do was once made in a thread regarding my confidence issues. Well, it's time that people just accept the fact that not every person's brain is wired the same. It can literally be physically impossible for another person to think the same way you do. That's when people start calling each other crazy. It's unintentional, and gaslighting is only a side-effect. But I think this is the most common version of gaslighting, the one we all experience regardless of gender.

For instance, there are 50 genes in the human body which cause a person to be born with ADHD. These genes cause the brain to grow and develop atypically. Because the brain is physically abnormal, the chemistry is also altered. This can even affect how hormones are processed by the body, causing some people to have exaggerated behavior such as mood swings. Presently, the only hope for a "cure" lies in stem cell research. Current treatments generally focus on ways to boost levels of dopamine so the patient does not seek a dopamine boost through impulsive behavior - sort of like an adrenaline junkie looking for a "rush".

Over the last few decades, a lot of research has been done regarding the biological differences of men and women too. I think we can all agree than men and women are also wired differently. In fact, even their brains may be physically different. That doesn't mean that one gender is smarter than the other, but it may mean that one is prone to greater emotional extremes. Or it may mean that the methods of reasoning or perspective are influenced by separate set of biological factors. It's all debatable at this point, but I digress.

The point is that men and women typically do not understand each other. They may never understand each other, and this could be because of biological differences between the two genders. In the heat of the moment, many of us are bound to lose sight of this. In frustration, we will dub each other "crazy" just because we can't understand each other.

Logic and emotion are like oil and vinegar: they never mix unless you learn to emulsify. Anyone who knows what I mean recognizes that emulsification is a slow, steady, exhaustive process which cannot be rushed. There is no quick fix. Emulsification can only be achieved by taking one's time. In today's society, where instant gratification is the order of the day, no one wants to invest the proper amount of time to develop real synthesis in relationships. We just dump all the metaphorical oil in at once. When it finally separates, so do we, be it divorce, estrangement or ostracism.

So I guess the good news is that we can all get along. The problem is getting everyone to slow down and be willing to take time to fight their own ignorance. If we all did this, then such articles might not be necessary.

RainbowTrout's photo
Thu 11/24/11 05:40 AM
:smile:

krupa's photo
Thu 11/24/11 05:44 AM
This is all well and good except for the fact that some chicks really are freaking mental/emotional basket cases.

Though in all honesty, I screw with more dudes heads than chicks. (they are too sensitive). Yesterday, a hose came loose and was blastinhg water all over the bottling room at work. My new helper came running out to me with eyes wide as saucers. I took one look and said "WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO?"

10 minutes later, it was fixed and I was laughing and I explained our company policy of "Whenever something goes wrong....blame the new guy"

krupa's photo
Thu 11/24/11 05:49 AM

I do not know any women who want to be called biotches or crazy or sluts


Oh yeah? Maybe the guy just ain't saying it right. I use those words as terms of affection and my lovey b!tch is cool with it.

:)