Nothing.

But what does that have to do with anything?

Who's asking you to not live a life full of love?

Are you only living your life full of live because of your faith in Christianity?

I'm living my life full of love without any need for Christianity.

So I don't see what that even has to do with Christianity?

The only reason that you might view me as "less than a loving person" is simply because I voice views about the Hebrew writings that you don't particularly like.

Well, gee whiz. You support those writings as being the "Word of God" and, IMHO, those writings contain messages and ideas that I personally see as being detrimental to society and humanity in general.

So from my perspective there is nothing 'loving' about going around trying to convince people that those ideas came from "God".

On the contrary I feel that it's more loving to show them why those writings are most likely not from any God.

I truly believe that humanity would be far better off if everyone converted to Buddhism. Although I'm certainly not trying to get anyone to do that. But I do sincerely believe that it would be a positive thing if the Abrahamic religoins were abaondoned by everyone as being nothing more than Zeus-like myths.

Not just the Christians, but the Muslims and Jews too!

So yes, I feel that exposing myths for what they are is a positive loving thing. It will help us to finally come out of the dark ages.

No because then it wouldn't be "love". Love can not be forced, love has to be willingly given and or received. What are you talking about? You really go out in left field with some of your comments.



Again, way out in left field. I have never once said anything along any lines of you being loving or not. I do not know you, I could not make such a judgement, nor would it be my place to do as such.



Yeah I can see where you would get the idea. I mean the scriptures only teach us to take care of others before us, to give the shirts off our backs for others, to not judge others, to love others endlessly no matter who they are or how they may act.

No, that's not true.

The overall story teaches us of a God who feels that punishment is a valid way to deal with problem children.

It also teaches us of a God who cannot forgive people unless someone has suffered for their disobedience.

It also teaches us of a God who supports inequality in relationships in terms of gender.

If this God is an example, of "divine supreme wisdom", then these stories are teaching us that the greatest wisdom of all is to solve your problems using violence and punishments.

I totally disagree with that message, and I see nothing "loving" or "wise" in such a message.

How these stories might claim we should behave is a moot point if the God of the stories is setting poor examples of "Divine Wisdom", because in-the-end that is the ultimate message that truly comes through.

No it doesn't. In this world, death is the final outcome of life. Our God offers eternal life, not damnation. Jesus taught on how to achieve eternal life, he taught of the glory of Heaven.



Not true. Jesus wasn't a "sacrifice" for God the father. Jesus fulfilled the first covenant which required blood sacrifice and gave us a new which did not require as such. Yeah Jesus took your place in the grave, but not as a blood "sacrifice" to God, it was just that. He took your place.

First off, everyone doesn't agree with your interpretations of things anyway. So I'm not really concerned with your personal interpretations. I speak out against how the religion affects the bulk of humanity. And based on how I personally see it.

I've told you many times that I'm not interested in Cowboyainity. I have no clue what that even entails.

~~~~

Secondly, what you just said here about Jesus doesn't help one iota.

You're claiming that Jesus "died spiritually" to take my place because spiritual death is somehow what I naturally "deserve"

As far as I'm concerned that situation right there is an extremely negative thing.

Why should I deserve spiritual death?

What did I ever do to deserve such a horrible fate if there is indeed a spiritual essence to reality?

I certainly see no reason to place my faith in the idea that I somehow deserve spiritual death in a spiritual universe.

That's truly absurd, IMHO.

I have never done anything in my entire life that would warrant such a harsh "punishment" if reality truly is spiritual.

So for this religion to even imply that I would deserve such a fate, simply has no merit. And it most certainty isn't an idea that I would care to believe on faith.

Moreover, if the punishment that Jesus supposedly "took my place" for was a punishment of spiritual death, then clearly Jesus could not have possibly taken my place because according to this religion Jesus didn't die spiritually. He only "died" momentarily for 3 days and then he was spiritually resurrected. Supposedly he will live for all of eternity.

Thus these stories makes no sense claiming that he "took my punishment for me" when the punishment being referred to is spiritual death. This is why I claim that these are necessarily fables Cowboy. They simply make no sense at all.

~~~~

Also, as you surely know by now. I already have a perfectly sound explanation for who Jesus was and how these superstitious rumors got started about him being a demigod who was supposedly born of a virgin, etc.

~~~~

I ask you seriously Cowboy; which makes more sense to place your faith in?

The idea that Jesus was a demigod born of a virgin who died to take your place in spiritual death which you naturally deserve?

Or the idea that Jesus was a misunderstood mortal man who actually taught against the immoral practices of the Torah and was crucified for his religious rebellion, only to become the victim of religious rumors that used his story to nail him right back onto the very fables the he himself rejected?

Personally if I'm going to place my faith in something I would much prefer the latter to be true. So that's where I'd spend my faith.

No way am I going to waist my faith believing that I deserve spiritual death in order to support what appears to me to be totally outrageous superstitious rumors.

That would be a total waste of my faith, IMHO.

I deserve spiritual death in a spiritual universe?

And I'm supposed to believe that on faith?

I don't think so.

~~~~

Never said you deserve it in particular. "Death" is not a punishment put on each individual person for the individual things they may have done or may not have done. Death is a punishment put on the entire human race after our fall from the garden of Eden.

Matthew 12:40

40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Acts 2:31

31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.



Jesus wasn't a "demigod". Jesus is our God. Here's a couple examples.

Luke 4:12

12And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God

Deuteronomy 30:6

6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.



He spent 3 days in hell as shown above, he did die physically and spiritually for us all.

Well there's your God with supposedly "Divine Wisdom" solving his problems with "punishments" again.



And of course I would need to deserve spiritual death in this religion Cowboy.

If I didn't deserve it then the creator would be totally unrighteous inflicting me with that fate as a "punishment".

~~~~

And yes Cowboy I'm listening to you in depth.

You're trying to justify this by somehow suggesting that this "punishment" was placed on all of humanity rather than individuals, etc.

Hey, fine. I you wish to believe that on pure faith for your own needs to believe in this religion, more power to you.

It doesn't impress me. The idea of all of humanity being 'punished' with spiritual death if they fail to accept Jesus Christ as their "savior" isn't going to help as far as I'm concerned.

Like I say, if you care to place your faith in such things please feel free. But trying to "argue" that I should accept those things is a total waste of your time I can assure you of that.

You should especially know that it's a total waste of time posting verses from scriptures that I have clearly stated I see as total superstitious rumors.

Why should I believe those superstitious rumors?



I'm sure he wasn't. But these stories claim that he was born of a mortal woman who was impregnated by a God. Back in those days, that was a common myth and such beings are defined to be 'demigods'.

I disagree that Jesus was our "God". I personally believe that the person who gave rise to the Jesus myths was indeed a mortal man just like you and me.




Again, why should I believe in such superstitious rumors?

Just because someone wrote stories like this doesn't make them true Cowboy.

And besides, why would Jesus need to go to hell to take our place? I thought you didn't believe in hell for humans?

With all due respect, you simply aren't consistent in your claims concerning this religion.

You reject the idea of hell for humans and the idea that people will be sent to "everlasting punishment" because you don't want to get into defending a God who would be so cruel. So you try to do away with hell for humans by proclaiming that we won't be sent to hell, but instead we'll just simply die if we don't make it to heaven.

Now you have Jesus going to hell to take our punishment for us.

From my perspective you're just grasping at anything you can find in the moment to try to support these myths without really paying a lot of attention to a larger coherent picture.

You're just not convincing, IMHO.

I see no reason to place my faith in a God who would condemn all of humanity to hell, or even simply spiritual death, and threaten to send them there if they merely don't believe in a particular ancient religion from a male-chauvinistic culture that claims to speak for God.

I'm sorry, but that whole scenario is simply outrageous, IMHO.

Truly, Cowboy. I'm not trying to be difficult. I sincerely believe that this ancient religion has absolutely no more merit than Greek mythology.

I'm sorry if you find my conclusions to be less than respectable.

I can't help that.

For one, death isn't a "punishment" put on individual people. Heaven is EARNED, through faith and actions. Eternal life is EARNED through faith and actions. Death is the automatic end of the world now that we have been kicked from the Garden of Eden.



I don't rightly care if it impresses you or not, I'm not here to impress you. I'm here to discuss religious beliefs.



I don't argue with you if you should accept them or not. That's entirely up to you.



Know ye not that ye are Gods and children of the most high? You are only mortal if you choose to be, Jesus offers eternal life, he wishes for us to accept him and be born again. You're still thinking of God in a fantasy form of mindset. We are made in God's image, we are children of God.



Nobody said you should, only you can answer that question. Why do you take it like that? Doesn't matter to me if you believe it or not, we're here having a discussion on different religious beliefs. If you do not wish to believe my beliefs, that is fine. Not trying to change anyone's mind, just discussing the topics at hand. Are you trying to change other peoples mind and that is why you think they are trying to do the same?



Hell was not MADE for us. And people will not remain in Hell as Hell is destroyed in the end of times. I am consistent in my claims, you just like to nic pic things taking them out of context to use them against the one you're discussing with. Hell is a holding place for Satan and his minions. That is why it is thrown into the Lake of Fire come the end of times, this is known as the second death.



The only reward for sin is death. Hell is thrown into the lake of fire come the end of times and is destroyed itself. So how could someone be sent to Hell when Hell is destroyed?



Again you act as if I'm preaching. Dude lol, I'm merely discussing. I couldn't care less if I don't convince you, the only one that could convince you is yourself. And you've already convinced yourself the Christian faith is nothing but a bunch of fables. So there would be nothing more I could ever even possibly do if I wanted to.

Again, you aren't being consistent in your excuses for these stories, you had just said:



The entire human race is nothing more than a conglomeration of individual people Cowboy.

You have a very weird way of looking at things. You even talk about addressing a forum but not the individuals who make up that forum. That makes absolutely no sense at all.

The kinds of utterly nonsensical things you have to come up with in an effort to support these fables is unbelievable.




Well, for someone who isn't here to impress me you sure do quote enough of my posts and address enough of my the points that I personally make.

Obviously you're out to try to impress someone. Otherwise why even bother to respond to my posts at all?



You specifically quote and address the points I personally make, arguing against them.

If you can't see that this is 'arguing' then I question your understanding of the concept.

I most certainly do 'argue' against your claims, because you are addressing them to the FORUM, of which I am a member.

So at least I'm not in denial of what's going on here.



I'm familiar with the mythology and rumors Cowboy. I personally don't believe they have verbatim merit.

If I were going to accept these fables at face value as the verbatim truth I would have no choice but to accept everything they say.

It is my position that these writings are not worthy of being believed on pure faith alone, nor do they have any rational merit.

So why you continually repeat the stories to me is beyond me. You may as well be reciting Greek Mythology as far as I'm concerned.



Christianity is infamous for it's proselytizing and evangelizing nature.

Yes, I do post my views to expose these myths to others.

You, yourself are extremely inconsistent in your claims. When you first came onto these forums you proclaimed that you are a "Servant of God" who is out to "Spread the Word". You also stated that you were out to "Save" people because you care about them and love them.

At one point you even proclaimed to be in continuous TWO-WAY communication with God himself. You have proclaimed in the past that you know that your faith-based beliefs are true, etc.

Lately you have been trying to claim that you are merely here to discuss religious ideas. You also claim that you aren't 'arguing' with me.

In spite of your constantly changing positions, I have never ceased to see you as a relentless proselytizer of the religion.

Today you claim, "Doesn't matter to me if you believe it or not,... Not trying to change anyone's mind".

How does that fit in with your original stance that you are a Servant of God working to Spread His Word, and that you care what people believe because you love them?

You've sure changed considerably over time.



If that's true then there would make no sense for Jesus to go to hell to take the place of humans.

So I still don't see where your position makes any sense.



My point was simply to ask what sense it makes for Jesus to have gone to hell to "take our place" if you claim that's not where we'd end up anyway.

Nothing you've said here has justified your inconsistency.




You're right that you could never convince me even if you wanted to. That's one point I will agree with you on.

However you are indeed wrong when you say that you aren't preaching.

Look at what you've just said:


That's preaching.

You didn't say, "I personally believe that the only reward for sin is death".

I don't truly care what you believe Cowboy.

I just explain why I don't buy into these ancient fables.

As far as I'm concerned they are one culture's attempt at building a political system based on a religion making out like it represents the word of a God.

Religion was a central theme in social politics in those days.

You state, "The only reward for sin is death" like as if I should believe that.

Nope, that's your faith-based belief not mine.

That's the foundation of your religious fears. You have evidently convinced yourself (have been convinced by this religion) that you are indeed a sinner, you deserve death, and the only way out is to join the religion and support it to the hilt.

And because of your extreme determination to do precisely that, I can't help but believe that you have been totally terrified by this idea that you wouldn't dare consider that the religion might potentially be false, because that would threaten the status of your salvation. And that would be horrible! You'd then be cast into spiritual death, and this is clearly something that you don't even want to remotely consider. Better cling to having been 'saved'.

Like you have said in a previous post. "What have you got to lose?" From your perspective Christianity (or the biblical religion) is the only religion that is really holding out a threat to you. Cover that single base, and if you're wrong it's not sweat. If the religion turns out to be true, you've got the base covered.

So from your perspective you can't go wrong.

I, on the other hand, do not fear these ancient religious threats of a mean bully God that I need to be 'saved' from. So that's a base that I truly have no desire to 'cover' at all.

If it turns out to be true, it would be so thoroughly disgusting that at that point I wouldn't even care if I was cast into a pit of hell.

If we were created by such an insensitive bully God like that, then I really don't even want to know about it. And I could certainly never respect such a demonic entity.

I'd have to pretend to like such a bully God in an effort to appease its wrath.

And what good would that do? Surely this God would recognize my pretense.

So Christianity has nothing to offer me in any case.

I'd have to pretend to believe in it just to try to appease its bully God.

It's just a totally worthless religion for me.

A mother was preparing pancakes for her sons, Kevin, 5, and Ryan, 3. The boys began to argue over who would get the first pancake. Their mother saw the opportunity for a moral lesson. "If Jesus were sitting here, He would say 'Let my brother have the first pancake, I can
wait'". Kevin turned to his younger brother & said, "Ryan, you be Jesus!"



MY POINT? people can consume the same information and come away with totally different perceptions of what it means,,,

sometimes balance and common sense have to come into play, obviously EVERYONE cant be the 'first' to offer, but many would take such information and infer that everyone should attempt to be first

balance requires that sometimes we can be first and sometimes we can give the grace of being first to someone else, neither being any less 'christian' than the other


there is so much information in the bible, I doubt there will be absolute agreement about how to apply ALL of it ALL of the time,,,,

Funny joke.

What would Jesus vote on regarding using torture on suspects?
I wonder if Jesus would hit his children if he had any.

Who knows, he did turn tables over. And he didnt oppose excommunication of adults, but i dont think excommunication would work with children. He drove the moneychangers out of the temple with a whip.

So who knows how he would handle the discipline of children. Perhaps that is why he wasnt a parent, to avoid being in that position. Or why he wasnt a soldier, to avoid having to make a decision about such things. His only kingdom was Heaven, as opposed to christian who must live for the kingdom of Heaven while living in the world.

There is also the issue of everything not being so black and white. Interestingly, Jesus didnt speak too much to the raising of children besides to 'raise them up' in the way we wish them to go. There is a different dynamic between child and parent, than there is between adult and adult, or adult and child, or government and citizenry. All these dynamics are covered in the Bible but we get into trouble when we blanketly apply what applies in one case to what should apply in ALL cases.


...but Im going on,,,

my answer is basically that I dont know what Jesus would do as a parent anymore than I know what he would do as a soldier, because neither were intended to be his purpose apparently.

The common belief about Jesus,as the son of God, is that he is kind and loving. Christians depict him in pictures teaching children, rescuing lambs, healing people, etc.

I can't picture him spanking a child, or condoning water-boarding or torture.

I picture him as a gentile kind soul. More like the flower children of the 60's.

But then, that's just the impression I get from most Christian ministers and Jesus followers.

Perhaps behind the scenes he is the cult leader who brainwashes children to disown their parents.

If he had lived in this day and age, perhaps there would have been a Jesus sex scandal or maybe he and his followers would go off to some jungle and form a commune.

I think he was gentle AND just. I picture him as wise and immortal, without the mortal fears and flaws of men and with much more 'power' than men as well.

I dont picture him as soldier material, because I dont picture him with the same concerns as mortal men to 'protect' his physical body. Or the same need to use 'physical' means to do so.

I dont picture him as a parent because that would require a partner and take away the focus on his purpose as the Christ.

He was no pushover, and I dont think parents need to be either. Sometimes, simply 'talking' doesnt work.

No wonder he can afford to turn his other cheek to his enemies.

They can't get close enough to slap it when he's wielding a whip.



He forgot to tell his disciples! "Turn your other cheek, but be sure to have your whip in hand when you do that".

as I say a million times,, its never so black and white

or absolute,,,,

I could sure use him in my protest against the central bankers and Zionism.

They are the money changers today.

Jesus and Mary Magdalene

Mary Magdalene was said to be a prostitute

It was said that they got married

Again, you're not listening.

Cowboy,


Then I said




Abbra, Weather you obey the law or not doesn't change your life span one bit. A person who does their best to disobey God will more then likely live the same life span as he would have with obeying God. The punishment given to us from God is on the ENTIRE world's population. Because of our fall from the garden of Eden, we have been punished with death, we no longer live for eternity. That is why Jesus offers eternal life. Through Jesus one may achieve eternal life once again.



I'm out to impress no one. I do this so people don't have your confusing words that they read last. Then leave with that confusion.



This is what I mean by your twisting of words to use them against the on you're discussing with. I am not inconsistent one bit.

I am indeed a servant of God, who has given his life to spread the word. This much is true. I never said I was out to save anyone, that is beyond my power. That is between the person and God, Jesus saves not me.



I'm nothing special there. Everyone does. Again, why else would someone have that belief or hold it if they thought there was some form of way it could be false? Why would one waste the time, faith, and energy practising something they thought isn't absolute?



Please, next time you respond, reread what you're responding to. The quote below this is what you were responding to.



Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire, along with Satan, his minions, and everyone who did not receive the grace of God.



No that's not preaching. EVERYTHING posted in this forum is an "I believe". This is a religion forum for sharing BELIEFS. So no, the words "I believe" do not have to start the response, as again EVERYTHING posted in this forum is an "I believe". So please, keep your hatred to yourself my friend, sit back, and enjoy the diverse community here.

So you accuse me of 'hatred' because I see you as preaching?

Especially after the fact that you came onto these forums originally proclaiming that you are a 'Servant of God who's purpose it is to spread his word'?

Why should you view any of that as 'hatred' on my part?

I personally think you are just trying to make me look bad because I refuse to accept or support your views.

You say,


Well, fine.

So you believe that some God has punished all of humanity for their supposed fall from grace. You believe that Jesus is the son of that God and that everyone who does not accept him as such will be condemned to spiritual death. You believe that the only wages of sin is death, and that somehow disbelief that Jesus was "The Christ" amounts to "sin".

I personally don't believe any of that.

I believe that the Old Testament is basically a take-off from Greek mythological ideas of a male Godhead who requires blood sacrifices to be appeased.

I believe that the stories about a man named Jesus are nothing more than superstitious rumors potentially sparked by the life of an actual mortal man who basically rejected the Old Testament just as I do, and was crucified for his views.

There is no 'hatred' in any of that.

I give total respect to the historical figure (presumably named Jesus) who may have sparked these superstitious rumors. It's the rumors themselves that I reject on many rational grounds.

There is no 'hatred' in any of that.

On the contrary, I have great respect for anyone who stood up against the immoral teachings of the Torah. That religion basically had people judging each other and stoning each other to death in the name of God. It also had people judging others to be blasphemers and heathens and killing them as well. In fact, the only thing that allowed the Pharisees to incite a mob to support their crucifixion of Jesus was indeed the teachings of the Torah itself. That's where they got the religious authority to murder blasphemers in the name of God in the first place.

~~~~~

From my point of view any God who would direct people to murder heathens who blasphemy "His Word", and then send his only begotten son into that same crowed to blasphemy "His Word" would need to be a truly confused entity.

Since I find it impossible to believe that an all-wise entity would do such an utterly foolish thing, I conclude that these stories, as proclaimed in the New Testament, cannot possibly be true.

Again, there is no 'hatred' in any of that.

I'm simply rejecting stories that I see as being totally nonsensical.

~~~~~

I actually "save" Jesus, from this incredibly unbelievable scenario and elevate him to the status of having been a very wise mortal man who actually rejected to these immortal behaviors and teachings.

So where is there any 'hatred' in any of that?

You call it 'hatred' simply because you would prefer to believe in those stories.

You call it 'hatred' simply because you are frustrated that you can't get me to agree with your belief and support of these stories.

But I simply see no reason to give them my support.

I do not care to support what I see as superstitious rumors about a God who would condemn all of humanity to spiritual death for what I consider to be trivial things.

~~~~

Not meant to argue with your "beliefs", but simply to once again explain why I do not believe in these stories allow me to say the following:

It makes absolutely no sense to me that some supposedly all-wise God would condemn all of humanity to spiritual death as a punishment for having disobeyed him, only to later send his 'only begotten son' as an offering to 'save' humanity from his very own condemnation of them.

At the very least this would represent a very unstable God who can't even decide how he wants to deal with his creation.

I realize that you'll no doubt have your 'apologetic excuses' for how you think this could potentially make some kind of sense. And that's fine. But I can assure you up front that your excuses are not going to make any sense to me. They never have in the past, and I see no reason to believe that they will start to make any sense in the future. I've heard most of these apologetic arguments already from standard religious sources. They fail to impress me or solve any of the issues that I have with these ancient stories.

No 'hatred' involved with any of that.

~~~~

If you're going to continually perceive my refusal to accept your beliefs as some form of 'hatred' aimed toward you, or toward the religion that you would like to believe in, then please quit reading my posts and responding to my views.

There is no hatred aimed toward you personally.

Hatred aimed toward the religion? Possibly in some capacity without a doubt. I do confess to having a very great dislike of the relentless proselytizing of the religion being preached to people as almost emotional harassment, or emotional terrorism if they refuse to join, agree with, and support the religion.

That's the topic of this very thread, "Aggressive Spiritual Predators".

Yes, I view that kind of behavior to be quite negative and detrimental to society. I 'hate' it in the same way that I 'hate' something like cancer. Such relentless religious proselytizing is, IMHO, a cancer on society.

I also find it to be particularly distasteful when it is done in an underhanded way. Like under the pretense that a person is merely 'discussing their spiritual beliefs' when in fact, they are proselytizing to the hilt without any consideration at all for the other person's beliefs.

Honest preachers who constantly harass people are bad enough. Dishonest preachers are the epitome of hypocrisy. There is no 'low' to which they will not stoop to continue their proselyting harassment toward 'non-believers' of their religion.

And when it becomes that low, it deserves to be 'hated'.

Nothing good can come of deception. If a spirituality cannot be put forth with total open honesty then it has become corrupt and has nothing but rotten fruit to bear.

Just my own personal view on that.

No 'hatred' intended. Especially if the shoe doesn't fit.