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| Topic: Humans, Humans we have gone through enough | |
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wow,, ask and ye shall receive huh...?...lol
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I disagree. A prayer would be to simply ask God to forgiven them. Explaining to God WHY he should forgive them, is giving God instructions what constitutes valid reasons for forgiving people. That's more than just a request, that's a justification for the forgiveness. generally when people ask for forgiveness they give the reason why I guess nobody trusts God to do the right thing on his own. 
Strange indeed. well he was nailed to a cross when he asked From what I have been told, God the Father is a real hard a ss. He is the one who wanted to just destroy the earth and all the humans on it and start over until Jesus came alone and volunteered to pay the price for all the sinfulness. I've also been told that if you don't have Jesus as your spokes person from this pissed off creator called Jehovah, you are out of luck. Thereby that is where people get the idea that only Jesus can get you into paradise. If you come on your own you won't get in. But there are other places to go in the universe besides that exclusive club, and I'm not talking about Hell. Souls are free to go anywhere they want. Heaven or Jehovah's Paradise is not the only place. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Sun 05/29/11 03:28 PM
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Actually, I think Funches makes some really good points on here...makes us think as Christians . I hope he ressurrects his old thread ...the one where we see christ from the unbelievers point of view. Really thought that was an interesting thread, Funches. 
you will have to email me the next time you notice one of these 'points' thanx Meaning....Funches makes some good points in showing us how things appear from the" unbeliever's point of view"..... thus proving christians the opportunity to provide some real answers from the biblical "point of view". Instead of just debating.
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I believe Jesus is the Son of God and my Lord and Savior. To say He should not have done xxx is to say I know what God should have done better. but didn't God also create Muslims .. so when you critize Muslims and suggest that perhaps they disappear aren't you also critizing what God has done Nope - Because Muhammad created the Muslim faith of his own Free Will. no it was God that created the Muslim faith and use the angel gabriel ( The holy spirit) to deliver it to Mohammad but either way God still created the Muslims...and you are critizing God for doing so Nope - Muhammad created the Muslim faith as Jesus created the Christian faith. God didn't create either. The question is: Do you believe Jesus was right or Muhammad was right. You discard Jesus. I discard Muhammad. Therefore to you God was not with Jesus. And to me God was not with Muhammad. Simple... |
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I've been following the conversation between Funches and MyLifeToday about criticizing Jesus. What I find ironic is that no one seems to recognize that the biblical stories themselves actually have Jesus criticizing God when he calls out with his final breath, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" How is this criticism of God? Well, it's criticism in two ways. First, Jesus is assuming that God would not have known enough on his own to recognize when people are truly guilty and when they are merely acting in ignorance. Clearly Jesus felt that ignorance is not sufficient reason for condemning anyone, yet at the same time he obviously felt that God would condemn people without sufficient reason. Otherwise, why even bother pleading with God to forgive people and explaining to God the reasoning behind the request (i.e. "For they know not what they do". Secondly, this is Jesus basically trying to convince God of doing something that he believes that God would not automatically do on his own. That's basically a criticism of how God would normally handle things. ~~~~ I personally have no problem with any of this because I don't accept the New Testament to be the infallible word of God. On the contrary as far as I'm concerned it is so utterly riddled with contradictions and absurdities that it can't possibly be the thoughts and intentions of any God. Either Jesus (or whoever this story was modeled after) never said half the things that are attributed to him, or the story is entirely fabricated fiction. Moreover, the bottom line for me is that any so-called Christian, who would have Jesus himself judging people for not believing in something have no scriptural support for their claims. Sure, they can root through the scriptures dragging out verses that might appear to support this claim when taken out of context. However, in the context of the WHOLE STORY none of those claims have any merit, because in the end, with his dying breath, Jesus renounced the judging of people who know not what they do. Therefore the hardcore proselytizers who try to make Jesus out to be the hardcore condemner like the original biblical God are clearly in ERROR. Even Jesus with his dying breath renounced any such unwarranted condemnations. So if we are to "believe" theses stories we must accept that Jesus himself criticized the unwarranted behavior of God the Father. Clearly Jesus was a rebellious son who did not agree with his father, in these stories. So even if we're going to believe these stories we must recognize Jesus to be the rebellious son, and not merely a son who would blindly do the will of the Father without complaining about and criticizing the typical expected behavior of the "The Father". In fact, I hold that it's Jesus rebellion against the original God of Abraham that actually attracts most Christians to Christianity. Jesus stood up to God, and everyone loves Jesus for this. 
Jesus forgave them. That was what His cry was. He wasn't chastising God. He was letting God know that He was forgiving them for what they were doing to Him. He was forgiving them as a man who was being tortured. I have never held the belief that Jesus condemns those that have never known Him. I have said that quite a few times. And this passage of His forgiving those that were persecuting Him at the time only supports this idea. |
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mylifetoday wrote:
I have never held the belief that Jesus condemns those that have never known Him. I have said that quite a few times. And this passage of His forgiving those that were persecuting Him at the time only supports this idea. Well, if the entire organized religion took your view Christianity wouldn't get the bad rap that it currently gets. It gets a bad rap because there are many hardcore proselytizers and preachers who do claim that a person will be condemn if they refuse to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. And without a doubt there are indeed verses within the scriptures that can be used to support that view. There are verses in the Bible easily loan themselves to supporting extremely religious bigots. In fact, those hardcore religious bigots would actually renounce your views as being incorrect. They would simply say that you are wrong and they would produce verses that support their position. When you response with verses the contradict their claims they ignore those verses and refuse to acknowledge them. Either that or they argue with really lame arguments as to why they don't agree with your interpretations of those verses. They love to use Jesus for spreading hatred toward all heathens and they won't tolerate anything that spoils their evil pastime.
But yes, I agree with you. Arguments can indeed be made for a rational and just Jesus. It's truly unfortunately that the religion actually loans its support to the hardcore proselytizers of religious bigotry. That's a sad but unfortunate truth. Some people just love to use Jesus as an excuse to spread religious bigotry and hatred toward non-believers. And that ruins it for the good Christians. |
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Edited by
greeneyeman
on
Sun 05/29/11 11:22 PM
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Now that I think about it
Jesus came back after his missing years to show a different idealogy of how to react or work on problems. For example turn a cheek from a confrontation then the old testament eye for eye, tooth for tooth. For his ways he was eventually killed. Now let us look at Buddha The location he was raised and lived all his life was primarily practiced Hinduism and Shamanism He then contemplated deep leaving his luxurious life, family, to meditate on the most difficult philosophical questions we still ask today. eventually he became enlightened and created a new movement called Buddhism The movement became popular and many joined. The only difference Hinduism didn't persecute him for his beliefs. He was lucky to be able to advocate a different thinking without dying for it. I am talking in historical reference and not the magical perspective of how most people see it when reading their bible. Which has me thinking that Jesus could have done it perhaps differently to advocate his belief system living a long life just like Buddha did. He could have avoided the whole death sentence and truly have created Christianity in a positive light leaving Judaism on its own. Of course Christians do not believe this to be true for they stubbornly believe Jesus had to die and the Jewish nomads made sure to write in the importance of this. Are you sure they weren't vampires blood thirsty for deaths??? lol Anyway, yes Jesus could have done it differently if he would have altered his strategy on how to influence his people to think differently in common morals. This is just food for thought! |
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Edited by
greeneyeman
on
Sun 05/29/11 11:28 PM
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Which means that Jesus never thought he would die for his new idea on a new movement for if he was in the lands where hinduism and buddhism was practiced in his missing years he certainly have seen a different religious practice. This means he thought he movement like Buddha did would be peaceful in every aspect. He should have thought that the Romans as of the Jews have a violent history and such a movement can prove fatal in which it did.
Again I am aware Christians do not believe it to be true for they absolute believe Jesus had to die. |
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I think Buddha did not face the same adversity because he was seen as a man and made no claim to be otherwise,, his individuality was less of a threat to those in power and more that of another individual who believed himself to be 'enlightened' with fairly clieche, and generic advice for just 'getting along'
Jesus came, the begotten son of God, which caused adversity from his birth. HE performed miracles through God, which caused adversity in his life, and he preached getting back to God, which caused a threat to the WORLDLY powers that be. He could have hidden or lied about any of that, to keep peace and avoid his end, but I am glad he never hid his relation to God or his purpose from God. |
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That is only true for those that believed Jesus was the son of a God or the God. And it is only true if one believes he did those actual supernatural events like many Christians believe. People like me don't believe he was a son of the God, but just a human being. No more and no less just like Buddha was.
But you have to also contemplate on his missing years. What did he do? Where did he go? What did he learn? This is not recorded in the bible or elsewhere. Some say he went to Egypt. Others say as far as India. If he did go to India he certainly saw different religious practices. Namely both Hinduism and Buddhism. Can it be possible that he took the ideas from these religions? Why not? Afterall if you cross reference both Buddhas experiences in the Tipitika which is 3 x bigger in volume then the Bible you will see that many of his stories are identical to the stories of Jesus. And Buddism existed for over 500 years before Christianity ever existed. |
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It is possible that many ideas, from Jesus and Buddha, came from the same place. I dont think it necessary that one got it from the other though.
I believe that murder is wrong. I got that from my upbringing. Someone in another century might write this same conclusion someday, without ever having known or met me,, simply because it is true, not because either of us 'own' or 'initiated' the truth. |
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Yes it is possible for the religion existed a bit longer before Christianity evolved, but also it is possible that Jesus just thought of it on his own also. He then came back after long contemplations on how to be an example and hope others will follow it.
Anything is possible. Just imagine how much has not been written in the history of Jesus and what could have been. Of course this is just for those that believe he even existed also. Some believe he never existed. It does have you contemplating though. At least it does for me occasionally. I have bought a book written by historians that reevaluate the history of many events. One of them is titled "Christianity without the Crucifixion". How would it have faired if this happened? Would the world be better off or worse? Some say better and have their reasons and others claim it is impossible! I will start a new thread after I am done reading these stories. It is a big book! Title - The Collected "What If" edited by Robert Cowley. It is just a big book of eminent historians that got together to discuss the issues. I wish I knew where their forum is located. I think it would have been educational and more entertaining. lol |
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Greeneyeman wrote:
He should have thought that the Romans as of the Jews have a violent history and such a movement can prove fatal in which it did. Jesus had no clue he was going to be crucified. On the contrary the Roman Pilate exonerated him. Thus proving that Jesus himself did not claim to be anything special. It was the angry religious zealots, the Jewish Pharisees that incited the mob to have Jesus crucified for blaspheme. Moreover, it was their actual religion that made their dastardly deed possible. Had it not been for a "God" who had commanded men to murder heathens in the first place, the Pharisees would have never had the power to incite the mob into doing such dastardly things in the name of "God". This is one huge reason why the religion makes no sense to me. The whole thing would have only been possible due to the dastardly "God" it was based on in the first place. Take away that "God" and there would have been no religious support for killing people in the name of God. Let's not forget this was a time when people were stoning people to death in the name of "God". Jesus came along and blasphemed himself by renouncing the very directives of this "God". If that's not blaspheme I don't know what is. There was nothing in the prophecies that suggested that any messiah was going to CHANGE the RULES or LAWS of God. On the contrary, even the Old Testament had God's "Word" supposedly standing for all of eternity. ~~~~ I was just reading about a math professor who teaches at a Christian college, and he was arguing that "Christianity" doesn't truly conflict with "science". Who cares? Whether it conflicts with science or not is a moot point. It conflicts with sanity. It's a blatant contradiction in terms. In order to believe in this religion a person quite literally needs to believe that God changes him mind, and creates dastardly situations like having his very own son "crucified" for blaspheme. What truly amazes me is why anyone would actually want to believe in these stories. It seems to me that a person truly has no choice at all but to believe that this God is truly either extremely powerless and, or downright ignorant. There's simply no excuse for the behavior of this God. A God who can only "forgive" mankind, if they are willing to nail his son (or himself) to a pole? How can anyone seriously even consider such a religion? Seriously? It's totally beyond my comprehension why anyone would even give this religion a serious mention. Forget about science. This religion shoots itself in it's own foot from the beginning to the end. All it does is attempt to condemn anyone who refuses to support its ignorance. 
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christianity =All it does is attempt to condemn anyone who refuses to support its ignorance.
anti religion = All it does is attempt to belittle the intelligence of anyone who refuses to refuse it,,, and the human behavior continues |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Mon 05/30/11 01:35 AM
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God could not have stepped out of heaven
Himself ,in All His Power and Glory ,without first being born in the flesh.... otherwise His Power would have burned us up to smitherings. Also ,God would have been going against His Word , had He Intruded into the "god of this world's" territory. That is why Jesus had to born ..in order to dwell among mankind... this way God was not going against his Word. God, in order to dwell among mankind, had to first BECOME man. Yet He was still fully God as well as fully man . If God had just wiped man's sin nature away.... let's say with the Mighty Sweep of His Hand ( without going thru His Son Jesus}, God still would have been INTRUDING upon man's free will. Think about this. And for the same reason is why God allows us Willingly to Choose , whether or not to believe and accept what Jesus did on that cross. Even though Jesus has already paid the price of our sins in full.... and offers us His free gift of grace, we still have to RECEIVE the free gift of Grace. But in order to receive the gift, one first has to BELIEVE that there actually IS a gift given...just waiting there for us to claim. God can't and won't force his free gift of grace upon us. Either. Otherwise again, God would be going against man's free will. |
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christianity =All it does is attempt to condemn anyone who refuses to support its ignorance. anti religion = All it does is attempt to belittle the intelligence of anyone who refuses to refuse it,,, and the human behavior continues Yes it does. It is the thought process of where I go with the thread "common sense". We each have a different interpretation of what common sense is to us. We have become a complicated species haven't we! Some claim Christianity is the only way to go. You have fundamentalists to more easier going believers of this faith. You have atheists who ultimately claim their is no god. Then you have the other 100,000 + religions and denominations each with their own claim of knowing. And then you have me......who simply says "I don't know"...anything is possible! ha ha have to laugh now...but yes we have it all that is for sure. One thing we cannot take away from the minds of humans is we have imagination and that has taken us a long ways. |
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abracadabra writes -
It was the angry religious zealots, the Jewish Pharisees that incited the mob to have Jesus crucified for blaspheme. Question: What do you think the reason was that the Jewish Parisees find it appropiate to crucify or kill Jesus? |
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Edited by
greeneyeman
on
Mon 05/30/11 01:49 AM
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God could not have stepped out of heaven Himself ,without first being born in the flesh.... otherwise His Power would have burned us up to smitherings. Also ,God would have been going against His Word , had He Intruded into the "god of this world's" territory. God, in order to dwell among mankind, had to first BECOME man. If God had just wiped man's sin nature away, without going thru His Son Jesus.... He would have been INTRUDING upon man's free will. Think about this. This is why we still need to willingly believe and accept what Jesus did on that cross. Even though the price is paid in full..we still have to receive the free gift. God can't and won't force it upon us. My morning glory the one who claims to preach about the high and mighty glorious god that will save us all if we believe in him. To have a genuine faithful relationship with him. I think it would be easier for me if he was actually a she that looks like Halle Berry! ha ha yet you mention God could not have stepped out of heaven without first being in flesh or he would have burned to ashes! Reminds me of a vampire who cannot step out into the sun or he will burn and die! Nevertheless think of the logic about what you say and preach directly from your personal bible. If a god all powerful, king of gods, the ultimate creator of everything could not step out of heaven without burning to ashes then you are mentioning he is not all powerful and creator of everything unless he did that onto himself these special rules to not interfere with free will. but the logic of not having the ability to step onto earth if desired would mean he has lost powers as a god. God in most human minds is all powerful, all wise, all creation meaning he can do as he wishes if desired. I know you will say I don't understand like usual, because god transformed himself to a mortal flesh and was Jesus walking on earth. Now for me this is mythology all over again, but I like how Zeus occassionally visited earth to chat with one of his sons or daughters. Even though he preferred to land on Greek soil, which by the way is a beautiful country to visit, he could have stepped foot in the Middle East. And why go through all the commotion in the first place as our magician abracadabra mentions. Just imagine if a god did show himself how fast the world will believe in one religion. Wouldn't that just be the ultimate solution. For me it would be, but I guess we humans prefer the competition and the different idealogies of what we think a relationship is with a god or goddess. When you preach it is not about religion and it is about relationship ...just remember that many people on this earth have a relation with their own personal view of a god that is not christian. Are they bad to practice it if they offer love, compassion, and understandings they deem right? I think they are no different then the next man....Can you accept that notion or do you still feel it is never to late for them to change to the TRUE GOD which you interpret as the right direction. Do you understand MorningGlory or are you already quickly flipping pages in that bible trying to figure out how to answer this message in your limited time? lol |
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if it got you where you wanted to go it was the right direction
if it didnt , it wasnt but you wont know until you get there, and some will have chosen the right directions, and some will not,,,, |
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Edited by
greeneyeman
on
Mon 05/30/11 01:43 AM
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Perhaps there is no direction.
Perhaps everyone regardless of belief is going the right direction. What happens after our life is the interpertation of either someone who dictated it on text or in their own words and one chooses to follow the guidance or belief in the figmentation of their own minds of what we want to believe. It is just more honest to say we don't know, yet for most people this is bothersome because they want answers now in the lifetime they are living. Then it is hard to understand why people with no faith can live a good life as of someone without faith can live a life of superstitions as they would put it. It is a conversation that can go on for another 5000 years. Will scientists know more then? Will Theologists know more then? Perhaps a simple innocent farmer will have the answers we seek on those hard questions. In the end it is our imaginations that has gotten us here were we are now. |
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