Kliesto....We are dealing with a culture and time quite different from

todays setting.

Lots of brutality etc., was not uncommon back then.

Either the Isrealites would have been overtaken and wiped out,

or the caanonites would have been....which one called on God ?.


But since the Isrealites called on God to help them, God did.

But the Caanonites could have also called on God and turned to God

too, but they didn't.


Remember the city of Nineveh?

Remember , no matter how far gone they were, that when they

repented, God spared them?

God would have spared the Caanonites too... .

Not to argue or anything, just this part of your post struck me funny. I don't understand it. You say it's irrelevant if they have sex, but totally relevant if they have kids. Mind explaining how the two are different from one another? People do still have to have sex to have kids, don't they? Less they are artifically impregnated or whatever, but that's a different subject all together. So mind elaborating on exactly what you ment here, so I can have a better understanding on your reasoning?

None of that justifies God having his people kill them.

You say that these Canaanites nauseated God.

If that were the case then God should have done away with them on his own. Why bother corrupting his good people by having them murder the Canaanites for him in a bloody war?

That's no excuse. God could have dealt with the Canaanites in his own time and in his own way, there's no need for the Hebrews to have ever even known that the Canaanites had ever existed.

You say, "God gave the Canaanites over 400 years to get right."

That's absurd. That implies that God was no omniscient and had no clue whether they would change or not. Moreover, 400 years isn't very long for a God who is supposed to have infinite patience.

Besides, how stupid would God need to be to not realize that the Canaanites would continue to bring up their children by teaching them the standard behaviors of the culture?

You're basically asking me to believe that God is totally naive and stupid.

If God wanted to do away with this culture the easy way would have simply been to make them all sterile. Then they would no longer have babies and God would have had no reason to continually hand them BRAND NEW SOULS to corrupt!

If God had been continuing to do that for 400 years he couldn't have been a very wise God.

If he had made them sterile they'd all have been gone within a single generation and he'd be done with them. He couldn't have even needed to kill them in any way but natural causes.

And he most certainly wouldn't have had to GO AGAINST his own commandments and desires that his people do not kill.

There's just no condoning it. There is absolutely no excuse for a God to have to have his favored people doing his dirty work.

He had 400 years to deal with the Canaanites!

All that's saying is that he had PLENTY of time to deal with them long before he lead his favored people to the Promised Land.

~~~~~~

Therefore it makes no sense in terms of any all-wise God.

It can only be a made-up story of a culture (the Hebrews) pretending that some God instructed them to kill another society and steal their land because it was "promised" to them.

I have no doubt that they did this, and that's why Israel to this very day has never been peaceful. It's basically stolen land. Stolen in the name of a "God". When in truth, there was no god associated with this thievery. It was just men trying to justify their evil deeds in the name of a "God".

People still do it today. The world trade center, suicide bombings, etc. It's all done in the "name" of this same fictitious God.

You can't expect to continue to support Christianity and try to get these other Abrahamic religions to give up their "God".

If you want to bring this stuff to a close you need to recognize that the whole shebang is fiction. We won't have peace in this world until the Abrahamic religions are all put on the shelf next to Greek Mythology, and that means ALL OF THEM. Not just some of them.

To receive mercy, forgiveness, or even love. One must first wish to receive it, one must accept it. If one doesn't wish to receive it or accept it, how can one expect to get anything of such? So, no still no contradiction.

For instance, say someone misses out on the kingdom of God. Do they have the right to blame God for this? No, absolutely not. They had a lifetime to repent from the action(s) that kept them from the kingdom of God, they had a lifetime to search for God's mercy. If one doesn't seek something, how can one expect to get it?

Sure Cowboy.

1. It's quite possible to have sex without producing babies.

2. It's not possible to have babies without having sex (or artificial insemination)

That's how they are different from one another.

WHICH IS BETTER:

TO

ASK GOD QUESTIONS

OR


TO QUESTION GOD......

No, just very very very patient and hopeful for the human race.



You say this like they did a favor for God. They did this through earning their gift. Gifts aren't given in vein for no reason. They are rewards for our lives and what we do in it. This was entirely for the Hebrews, getting them somewhere they needed to be. And the Canaanites again were not "murdered". They were judged. They did not have good grounds with God, so therefore they were judged to death. In the times the old covenant held power, times of the old "testament", people were judged on Earth by their peers for their disobedience. This was done because the word was just that, God's word. It wasn't possible for the word to carry out the judgment. That is why it was made flesh in the new covenant eg., Jesus. That is why Jesus is the judge of us all. Jesus always has been, just now he can carry the judgments out on his own.

God could not have just stepped in, and "waved

the wand" as

you stated, Abra......if God had done this, God would have

been going against His Word.


God would have been intruding and interferring with man's

freedom of choice ( free will).....

to either obey or disobey God.

Except we're not questioning God, we're questioning what MAN says about God. Big difference.

THAT is WHY You need to find out for yourself

what God says.


Ask God.....

Then

Listen to God.

Not man.


See Kliesto...here is the KEY.....

God WAITS for us to Come to Him and ASK.

OTHERWISE, God's hands are tied....

simply because

GOD CANNOT AND WILL NOT INTRUDE UPON MAN'S FREE WILL!!!!!

No, Cowboy, that would neither be patient nor hopeful. On the contrary if God had a society that nauseated him that much and he continued to place new souls into their babies so they could raise their babies to believe and behave as they did, then God would have been the fool of fools.

There is nothing wise nor patient about being a fool.

There's no justification for a God who does such foolish things.

If people are going to claim that their make-believe God is "wise" then they need to write wise stories about such a God. Clearly the biblical stories are not wise, and therefore they cannot be the stories of any "wise" God. Thus they must necessarily be nothing more than fables made up by very unwise men.



No, again Cowboy, such a God would be foolish. He commanded these people to not kill, and if that's what he wanted them to be like he had no business directing them to kill a bunch of heathens.

There's absolutely no excuse for such ignorance Cowboy.

Besides, your explanation is contradictory. On the one hand you claim that this action wouldn't be doing a favor for God, yet simultaneously you claim that people need to EARN their gifts from God by doing God favors.

It's utterly absurd for a supposedly all-wise all-powerful God who is supposedly all about LOVE to command people not to kill, and then expect them to kill an entire society. The reason for the killings is entirely moot.

In fact, if you can excuse this killing, then all you're basically saying is that killing can indeed be excused under special circumstance (i.e. if it can be justified in the name of God)

And that's precisely what the Crusades and "Witch"-burnings were all about. Excusing killing in the name of God.

Even Hitler excused his killing of the Jews in the name of this same religion. And rightfully so. Because clearly from this very story that we are talking about it, this God obviously condones the killing of heathens, therefore killing heathens is perfectly acceptable. It's what you do if you want to EARN favor with this God.

Jesus himself taught that till heaven and earth pass not one jot nor one tittle shall pass from law, and the law is that the biblical God commands us to kill heathens. So even Jesus supports the LAWS of this God according to these scriptures.

So once you agree that God condones the killing of heathens you're basically supporting the Hitlers of the world.

These people who worship the Bible as the "word of God" cannot comprehend what you are saying Keisto.

They simply can't comprehend that the Bible is not "word of God".

It's simply beyond their ability to comprehend. They have convinced themselves that the Bible is the word of God and they can't understand that it was actually written by an ignorant society that were just using an idea of a "God" to support their nasty behaviors.

God supports male chauvinism?

Who would believe that other than people who believe the Hebrews?

God commands people to mass murder other cultures and even participates in their wars by crumbling the walls of a city?

Who would believe that other than people who believe the Hebrews?

God can't forgive anyone unless they accept that he had his son nailed to a pole to pay for their sins?

Who would believe that other than people who believe the Hebrews?

It's not about believing in any God for them Kleisto. It's about believing the mortal men. The Hebrews!

They worship an ancient crude and rude society and they can't even imagine a God beyond that extremely limited and demented picture.

And some of them actually thrive on the gore of these stories and think that bloody crucifixions are "beautiful".

That should tell you something very important right there.

Wow, think you made a good point here :). Think we should go arrest some judges for sentencing someone to the death penalty and of course the one's that carried out the execution. Thanks for opening my eyes bro :). Guess, it'll be the entire government we have to arrest though. Quite a bit of the government system condones the execution of criminals of certain criteria. Man, think we just made this world a utopia :D. Criminals now won't have any reason to not kill someone, mass murder a group of people, or anything else a long those lines. What's a few years in prison? Cause obviously if you don't condone sentencing someone to death for a crime, you wouldn't possibly condone life in prison. Life in prison would be more inhumane then just executing them. Thanks bro, we are on our way to making this world a utopia :).

Man, it's just simply beyond your ability to comprehend. You have convinced yourself that the bible does not contain the word of God and can't comprehend it may have been written by man, but was inspired by God.

I made an absolutely powerful point Cowboy, sorry you were unable to comprehend it.

Your analogy here is utterly inappropriate.

When have you ever seen a judge ask common people on the street to kill anyone?

Moreover, when you compare God to mortal judges and governments you're reducing God to being as powerless and inept as mere mortal humans.

You seem to have totally missed the point of this whole scenario.

In the scenario were were discussing, we were talking about a God who is CREATING SOULS and handing them over to this society in the form of living babies!

How does this compare with a mortal judge or government? It doesn't.

There's no comparison at all. Your analogy doesn't even come close to representing the situation of an all-powerful creator.

I never once suggested that the creator did not have the right to deal with the Canaanites. On the contrary I offered that he should have removed their ability to procreate immediately and refused to create any new souls for them. Either have their babies stillborn, because God refuses to instill them with a LIVING SOUL, or just not allow them to get pregnant at all. Make them sterile.

Having his chosen people do HIS DIRTY WORK for him is inexcusable.

Comparing this with a mortal judge or human governments is absurd. There no comparison at all.

Mortal judges and human governments don't create living souls, and they can't do things magically.

If with God "all things are possible", then this God could have just make the Canaanite completely disappear if he wanted to. He wouldn't even need to resort to using physical lightening bolts or anything.

This is why we can know that these stories are false, because everything this God does is a lame as solutions that mortal men can come up with (i.e. Actual wars)

So your analogies are pathetic. When you use them all you do is demand that God is as helpless, inept, and as stupid as mortal men.

IMHO, it's a contradiction to suggest that a supposedly "all-wise" God would create woman as an afterthought from the rib of a man.

It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would allow a fallen angel to corrupt his creation.

It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would would support male chauvinism.

It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would would instruct people not to kill, and then command them to mass murder an entire other culture.

It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would condemn the Canaanites for sacrificing their babies to "False Gods" and then at a later time scream out to himself "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Anyone who is sacrificing their babies to false gods knows not what they are doing.

It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would flood out sinners yet spare some sinners if all sin is equal.

It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would be appeased by blood sacrifices.

I could go on and on and on Cowboy.

These stories are simply in blatant contradiction with the very notion of a supposedly "all-wise" God. And therefore they must be false.

It's as plain as day.

These fables shoot themselves in the foot at ever turn.

So, yes, if I am supposed to vote on whether I believe these stories are the made up absurdities of men, or the actual behavior of a supposedly "all-wise" God, then I vote that they are most likely the made-up absurdities of men.

That's my vote.

Absolutely.

I would need to believe God is as absurd as these stories in order to believe that these stories actually represent a God.

I see no reason to believe that the creator of this universe would be so pathetic, petty, and unwise.

So yes, I see every reason to discount them as nothing more than man-made fables (poorly written ones at that), and I see no reason whatsoever to support them as the actual inspired word of any supposedly "all-wise" God. These stories simply aren't "wise" IMHO.

Period.

And for what purpose?

Just to support religious bigotry?

To support the very NEGATIVE idea that all men and women are sinners who are at odds with our creator and in dire need of repentance?

To support the ignorant idea that punishment is condoned by God as a valid and wise means of dealing with "bad people"?

To support an idea that a supposedly loving all-wise God would actually support an extremely ignorant idea that everlasting punishment for sinners who refuse to cower down to religious bigotry is a just and righteous fate?

Get real.

I'm not going to support any of those ignorant superstitions. They are just downright ignorant and IMHO, no genuinely all-wise being would ever support such ignorance.

The sooner we get past these ancient ignorant superstitions the sooner we can begin to move toward actual sanity.

Even a pure atheistic view of life would be far more sane that this biblical nonsense.

What in the world are you talking about? You speak as if God and this world are two entirely different. This world is just as much spiritual as it is physical. God and this world aren't separate, some people of this world and God are separate yes but choice of the person. But all in all God is in this world just as much as you or I. He's not up on a cloud in the sky on a mountain called Olympus rofl.



lol yeah. You think the judge is whom will carry out the execution when they give someone the death penalty? You think the judge is whom will carry out that judgment? No, they pass this job on to someone else.



Again, you're separating spiritual things from physical things. They are one in the same. You are just as much a spirit as you are a physical human being. Your spirit is your "life force". When someone passes away on Earth, their spirit leaves their body, thus the body has no more life. If someone(s) were created without a soul, they would just be a lifeless corpse. Why what would be the purpose in that?



You either been watching to many movies or reading to many books my friend.



Why should God hand everything over on a silver plate? Do you just automatically deserve everything you ever will need or desire? Or do you feel you should have to work for what you got? That's all God was doing with this particular scenario.
1. Was carrying out a judgment on a lost group of people, lost as in not in the direction of God
2. Rewarding his faithful people with what they need.

That is the Biblical story of God Cowboy. This is the God who can turn someone like Lot's wife instantly into a pillar of salt for disobeying him remember?

It most certainly is a story of a Zeus-like Godhead upon a cloud who can do whatever he wants whenever he wants, like parting the waters for Moses, or crumbling the walls at Jerico, etc, etc, etc.

Yes, the biblical picture of God is indeed a Zeus-like God who sits on a throne and calls the shots.

If you'd rather think of God in terms of pantheism I'd suggest looking into one of the pantheistic religions instead of constantly arguing for the biblical picture of a Zeus-like "Father image" of a personified egotistical jealous God.




And you have still reduced God to being as inept as mere mortal humans.




Again, if you want to support pantheism then please do so.

That's NOT the biblical picture. Remember in the Biblical picture God can impregnate a virgin and magically have an "only begotten son".

So once again, make up your mind. Are you going to support the Zeus-like image of a judgmental personified God portrayed in the Bible? Or are you prepared to move over to the pantheistic philosophies?




So what are you saying here?

Are you renouncing the omnipotence of the Biblical God?



Your response to this makes no sense at all.

I never suggested that God should hand anything to anyone on a silver platter. On the contrary I offered various ways that God could have dealt with the Canaanites directly.

There would be no reason for an omnipotent God to have his faithful people do his dirty work.

All you can do here is renounce the omnipotence of the Biblical God, but then you've got a God that's no longer all-powerful.

This has absolutely nothing at all to do with handing anyone anything on a silver platter.

You're just try to side-track from the real issues at hand.

Besides, if you have a God who is rewarding one group of people and condemning another group, then you're back on your Cloud with a Zeus-like God directing and INTERVENING in the affairs of men.

In fact, this God supposedly crumbing the walls at Jericho so his favored people could easily win the war. Here you have God actually participating in the war and taking away the "Free Will" of the other side to defend themselves fairly.

So it can't be made to work and any appeal to an ideal that this God needs to respect people's free will is nonsense.

It's an unworkable fable. Period.

Man, you been watching comedy today? Cause you are just absolutely hilarious.



1. IMHO, it's a contradiction to suggest that a supposedly "all-wise" God would create woman as an afterthought from the rib of a man.
---

How is that a contradiction? Men do have one less rib then women. Do you really think at that day and age, they counted the ribs to point this out? Do you think they really investigated it that deeply to see men have one less rib then man? And it wasn't an afterthought, it's not like God created man and sat there thinking, hmmm, what to do. This man seems awfully lonely, what in the world could I do to fix that. There is a process to creating anything and everything. When making a sandwich, you get the bread out, put some mayo on the bread, then place the meat on the sandwich. You gonna tell me the meat was an after thought?

2. It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would allow a fallen angel to corrupt his creation.
---

How so? Man chose to listen to Satan in the garden of Eden, thus getting them kicked out. What other possible way would God have made so people could earn their way back into the paradise? What other way would indefinitely prove they would be obedient to God our father?

3. It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would would support male chauvinism.
---

Again how so? You know that saying to many chiefs and not enough Indians? Without a form of structure people would and do just run around like chickens with their heads cut off. Doesn't make males greater or more important to God. So he made the man the head of the family, whoohoo. If he would have made the females the head of the family, people would talk about female chauvinism.

4. It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would would instruct people not to kill, and then command them to mass murder an entire other culture.
---

Again, it was a judgment. And God owns all on this Earth and he gave that area to his people. So the Canninites were then trespassing. How else would you have done it since your so great and all knowing?

5. It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would condemn the Canaanites for sacrificing their babies to "False Gods" and then at a later time scream out to himself "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Anyone who is sacrificing their babies to false gods knows not what they are doing.
---

Man, you are really out there today. Jesus didn't scream out to himself. God and Jesus are two separate being, two separate entities. They are one in how they feel for the world, they are one in their mission for the world, they are one in their goals, they work as one in carrying out these things. They are one in their thoughts, their feelings, and their mindsets. But nevertheless two separate entities with separate jobs in their goals. At that time Jesus was flesh and blood, he was the same as you or I. He was not the judge at that time, and is why Jesus asked forgiveness for them from God as God was the one judging.

6. It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would flood out sinners yet spare some sinners if all sin is equal.
---

Who said he spared any sinners? A person that sins occasionally from time to time isn't in the "sinners" category. God has compassion and knows we screw up from time to time. It's about where one's heart and intentions are. If one sins continuously without a thought of their disobedience not seeking forgiveness of their trespasses, they are not forgiven and are a "sinner". If one seeks forgiveness and repents, they WERE a sinner but no longer would be. For they were forgiven of these sins and repented from doing so again.

7. It's a contradiction to suggest that an "all-wise" God would be appeased by blood sacrifices
---

It's not the "blood" that appeased God in exacts. Protein is needed for brain development and functions. Protein is an extremely needed nutrition. Protein can only be found in meat "blood". That is why it was a great sacrifice, because these people needed it so greatly to maintain the physical strength needed to live. They didn't have vehicles to drive, nor stores to just walk down an isle to get food. They had to physically hunt and gather their food needing strength. And protein is a great nutrition for muscle/strength building, and so again is very needed especially at that day and age.

No I'm not. And this is what I'm talking about with having God hand people something on a silver platter. Why shouldn't these people have had to earn their keep? Life is a gift from God. If one isn't being obedient to God, why should one receive the gift of life? And why should God again, be the one that has to do everything? Why couldn't God just direct a certain people to take out these disobedient people as he did with this?



No one was doing any dirty work for God lol. They were earning their reward. They were fighting for the land given to them by God. Wasn't anything that gained anything for God. Was only rewarding to his people.



Who said God couldn't "intervene" if that's what you wish to call it? Heck, if someone asked God for something and it was given, with your way of thinking that would be intervening. And God has specifically told us, ask and ye shall receive. The only way it would be the "intervening" area is if God took the free will of someone away and made they like a puppet.



How is crumbling walls taking away anyone's free will?