No Christianity is not built around the teachings of Jesus. Christianity is a demand that the entire biblical cannon be worshiped as the verbatim word of God. And Jesus never even remotely implied that any such thing is important. In fact, Jesus could not have condoned the New Testament because it hadn't even been written yet when he was alive, nor did he predict that it should or would be written and he certainly never mentioned anything about any Saul/Paul who would finish his teachings on his behalf.

So, no Christianity has very little to do with the actual teachings of Jesus. Moreover, the New Testament can't even be trusted to contain the teachings of Jesus since it's clearly just hearsay rumors as confessed by the very authors who wrote it.




Well this flies in the face of what you've been preaching for the past several months, because you have been totally refuting the idea of any such everlasting punishment altogether. You've been preaching that we either are given the "gift" of eternal life or we spiritually die.

Now your just trying to claim that the everlasting punishment takes place in a different place from hell is all. That's just a superficial play on labels. It doesn't change the concept at all.

So clearly you just keep changing your position every time I educate you on your doctrine.

No Christianity is not built around the teachings of Jesus. Christianity is a demand that the entire biblical cannon be worshiped as the verbatim word of God. And Jesus never even remotely implied that any such thing is important. In fact, Jesus could not have condoned the New Testament because it hadn't even been written yet when he was alive, nor did he predict that it should or would be written and he certainly never mentioned anything about any Saul/Paul who would finish his teachings on his behalf.

So, no Christianity has very little to do with the actual teachings of Jesus. Moreover, the New Testament can't even be trusted to contain the teachings of Jesus since it's clearly just hearsay rumors as confessed by the very authors who wrote it.

Well this flies in the face of what you've been preaching for the past several months, because you have been totally refuting the idea of any such everlasting punishment altogether. You've been preaching that we either are given the "gift" of eternal life or we spiritually die

This is certainly true. This is something that we know today that the ancient people could not possibly know, yet the Eastern Mystics actually guessed as much. And when modern science discovered this fact, the Eastern Mystics were confirmed in their speculations.

Note to Jeannie:

Some scientists could potentially object to your use of your term "light" here, simply because technically this refers to electromagnetic phenomenon specifically and there exists other forms of energy fields at the quantum level. However, for all practical purposes your statement still holds true as these other quantum energy fields behave identical to light in their own domain of effect. In other words, they also are produced via vibrations, reflections, and interference, just like light.

So whilst you are abstractly correct, the use of the term "light" could cause some scientists to argue your point on a technicality. However, replace the term "light" with "energy", and they would no longer have a technically to nit-pick on.

In other words, all of physical reality that we experience is nothing more than waves of energy vibrating, reflecting, and interfering. But technically there's more to it than just the electromagnetic waves. There are other kinds of "waves" too. But they are still just waves of energy. It's all just waves vibrating. That's the bottom line.

Cowboy wrote:

This refutes nothing. I've stated in the past no one will go to hell nor will their be ever lasting punishment IN HELL. Hell is destroyed in the end of times, hell, Satan, and the angels that followed after him will be cast into the lake of fire. So with hell being cast into the lake of fire obviously it can not hold anyone for it is destroyed.

No, you were refuting the very idea of everlasting punishment.

You're stance was that we either receive the gift of eternal life or we just die.

And the very purpose for your stance was to reject the idea that God is unreasonably cruel. Because even you can see that casting people into a state of everlasting punishment would be an utterly insane thing to do that could serve no good purpose.

All you're doing now is trying to claim that the label "hell" can't be used for this place of eternal punishment.

That's a mere irrelevant technicality.

The gospels clearly have Jesus supporting that humans will be cast into everlasting punishment, and he also says that there will wailing and the gnashing of teeth and this will occur in a place where flames are unquenchable.

So even if you refuse to allow this place to officially be called "hell" it certainly would be "hell" to anyone who exists in that state!

So you haven't avoided the ultimate conclusion that the biblical scriptures ultimate portray an unreasonable and unmerciful God.

And that flies in the face of other places in the Bible where it claims that the only thing that is greater than God's love is God's mercy. But casting mere non-believers into a state of everlasting punishment would not be very merciful.

So the collection of stories as a whole contradict themselves in extreme ways.

I've stated in the past no one will go to hell nor will their be ever lasting punishment IN HELL. Hell is destroyed in the end of times, hell, Satan, and the angels that followed after him will be cast into the lake of fire. So with hell being cast into the lake of fire obviously it can not hold anyone for it is destroyed.

Cowboy wrote:

What is so unreasonable and unmerciful when you've been told how to not receive this punishment? And just the fact that he has informed us of what would come of certain actions? What is so unmerciful about that?

And I know I once refuted eternal punishment, I've conceded to that though a long time ago, do not know why you bring it up again, I've learned and moved on.

But I do know for a fact this eternal punishment will not happen in hell, for hell is destroyed in the end of times. Hell is merely a holding cell for Satan until judgment time when all souls will be judged.

What is so unreasonable and unmerciful when you've been told how to not receive this punishment?

After reading through here it seems if you take away the illusion of superiority the Christians feel they have through their belief in the religion they get kinda prickly.

Christians are not more enlightened, not more blessed, not more spiritual, not more moral, etc... than those of us who do not practice the same religion.

Cowboy, my genius friend.

hell is fire. Burning fire, brimstones. lakes of fire.

If god or whoever tosses satan and his buddies in to a lake of fire, he is just pushing them into a place where they customarily live, survive, and are actually very happy and satisfied.

they don't burn to ashes and out of existence. Remember, they are in hell now, supervising the suffering souls.

If hell is cast into the lake of fire, then hell is cast into hell. I don't think anybody can do that. Can you cast a stone into the same stone? Can you cast Lake Ontario into Lake Ontario?

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Your version, Cowboy, read carefully, this has been tailor-made to your comprehension and style of argumentation:

Hell will last forever, and not diminish in a lake of fire, because the Monkees, a boy-group of the sixties in California, created by big business and not by their talent, to make big business even bigger, were found to be NOT genetically descendents of monkees. This proves, that the Darwinian epos of "Gilgameesh meets Godzilla" is a brilliant work of Egg Foo Young.

I hope you can agree with this. If not, I wish you to write down every objection you can. Then send your written objections to the Vatican, and ask the Pope to analize it.

Are you being loving if you tell your child either do as I say or I will torment you for an hour by fire? Can you not see how that's a fear tactic?

There's a term for this, and it's simple: "Spiritual Rape"

That's basically what it is.

I will be the one to decide what I do or what laws I will obey or disobey. I will take causal responsibility for my actions. I don't hold any delusions that there is a judge in the sky watching my every move.... the only judge I have is myself.

Once you take responsibility for your own thoughts and actions, you do not need a savior or a judge. You don't need a mother or father once you grow up. That includes any delusions of a father god who punishes you for disobedience.

An atheist is a person who has grown up. They will take responsibility for their actions. They will not be intimidated by preachers who speak about gods and punishment.

I believe in a spiritual universe. I define God as all that exists. That includes my own existence.

I exist, therefore I believe in God.

If you believe in Heaven, and that people who die do have the opportunity to go to Heaven, it is logical that if you believe in Hell, people who die do have the opportunity to go to Hell.

But, what is your opinion?

Shiki

So you decide what laws you abide?

If you believe you do not have to abide by one of the laws of the land will you not be punished?

I'm afraid to tell you, you will be punished for committing this crime just as a crime with God.

One doesn't get to pick and choose what laws he/she abides by or not.

Receiving some form of punishment for an action one takes is taking responsibility for that action they did.

Preachers aren't there to "intimidate, scare, or anything of such". They are there to tell us the consequences of certain actions. It's not a scare tactic, it is enlightening another.

And God isn't out to get us. God offers forgiveness for our trespasses. Out of love he knows we will make mistakes and offers forgiveness for doing as such.

I don't see where eternal punishment is logical in any case. For many reasons.

First off, what would be the purpose of it? It could be a "lesson" since it supposedly never ends. At best it could be seen as some sort of "revenge" that God is having toward supposedly "disobedient" souls. However, based on what the Christians claim a person can be sent to hell (or everlasting punishment) for merely not believing in the writings of the ancient Hebrews. That, IMHO, would be an extreme injustice and thus it would be unrighteous.

Secondly, how would God benefit from have created such a situation? Unless God is actually pleased to torture people what would be his purpose in torturing souls for eternity? Why not just un-create them. Let them cease to exist. There would be no good purpose for God in torturing souls for eternity. Unless this God is some sort of sick sadist that would enjoy the thought of people being endlessly tortured day in and day out without rest for all of eternity.

Third, this supposedly doesn't merely happen to a few really bad people, but according to these scriptures it would be the fate of the vast majority of souls, and only very few would make it into heaven.

Fourth, what kind of a heaven would that even be? What about parents who had a really sweet daughter who was a very compassionate humanitarian, dedicating her entire life to helping other people, and even fighting to protect the rights of animals, and to protect the environment of mother Earth, yet she rejected Christianity as an absurd myth.

So these parents have to spend their eternity in heaven knowing that their sweet daughter was condemned to eternal punishment just because she couldn't believe in the Hebrew stories?

No, that makes absolutely no logical sense to me at all.

Finally, if you want to speak about logic. I would suggest that if there exists a conscious supreme being who has these sorts of ultimatums and demands obedience of his directives, then he should make himself known to every individual in no uncertain term. This way these people would then make their informed choice of whether or not they wish to comply.

This idea that is all has to be based on the blind faith of believing in totally illogical stories is not the least bit logical. In fact, as far as I'm concerned this is proof positive that it is indeed nothing more than a man-made superstitious brainwashing scheme.

There are extremely logical spiritual concepts offered by various philosophies within the Eastern Mystical view of life. And none of them have ever felt the need to invent any concept of everlasting punishment for non-believers.

This concept of everlasting punishment just implies to me that the Hebrew account of "god" cannot possibly be true. Add to that the gazillion of other inconsistencies and absurdities in their fables and there's nothing there even worthy of consideration.

And I'm going to be condemned to hell for that?

That's just adds to the absurdities and unrighteousness of these tales.

Even I would not like to see someone like Hitler tortured for all of eternity. Even I would would have the compassion to simply put him out of his own misery by causing him to cease to exist.

With god "all things are possible", therefore it cannot be logically argued that God could not do this thing. The very existence of everlasting punishment would need to be a CHOICE for a God who can supposedly do anything it wants without any limitations.

I personally don't believe that any all-wise, all-righteous God who's mercy is supposed to exceed his love would create such a dastardly fate for human souls (or any living conscious beings for that matter).

This flies in the very face of being all-wise, all-righteous, and all-merciful. The very notion of everlasting punishment is a blatant contradiction to the very character traits of what this God is supposed to be like.

So the concept of hell (or everlasting punishment) itself spits in the very face of what this God is supposed to be like.

The story is inconsistent with respect to the persona they have created for their God. And thus the biblical picture of God has no more merit than the Greek Mythology of Zeus. Or even less merit. At least Zeus was allowed to be mean if he wanted to be. No one ever claimed that Zeus was all-merciful, all-loving, or totally righteous. Zeus could be mean to someone just because he felt like it and that would not violate the myths. But the same cannot hold for the biblical God who is supposed to be all-merciful, all-loving, or totally righteous.

That's my opinion.

First off, what would be the purpose of it? It could be a "lesson" since it supposedly never ends. At best it could be seen as some sort of "revenge" that God is having toward supposedly "disobedient" souls. However, based on what the Christians claim a person can be sent to hell (or everlasting punishment) for merely not believing in the writings of the ancient Hebrews. That, IMHO, would be an extreme injustice and thus it would be unrighteous.

Secondly, how would God benefit from have created such a situation? Unless God is actually pleased to torture people what would be his purpose in torturing souls for eternity? Why not just un-create them. Let them cease to exist. There would be no good purpose for God in torturing souls for eternity. Unless this God is some sort of sick sadist that would enjoy the thought of people being endlessly tortured day in and day out without rest for all of eternity.

Cowboy wrote:

So you decide what laws you abide? If you believe you do not have to abide by one of the laws of the land will you not be punished? I'm afraid to tell you, you will be punished for committing this crime just as a crime with God. One doesn't get to pick and choose what laws he/she abides by or not.

Receiving some form of punishment for an action one takes is taking responsibility for that action they did. Preachers aren't there to "intimidate, scare, or anything of such". They are there to tell us the consequences of certain actions. It's not a scare tactic, it is enlightening another.

And God isn't out to get us. God offers forgiveness for our trespasses. Out of love he knows we will make mistakes and offers forgiveness for doing as such.

Yes, everybody does actually.




As I said above:
I will take causal responsibility for my actions.




That is not your concern.



Yes one does.



No, taking responsibility is being willing to suffer the consequences. These are causal consequences. They have nothing to do with god or punishment.



Preachers can only guess what any consequence might be. All they can say for certain, all anyone can say for certain are that there are consequences for your actions. These are causal consequences. These are the laws of cause and effect. This is action and reaction. It is automatic. It has nothing to do with god personally.




I don't think god is out to get us. Forgiveness only comes when we forgive ourselves and learn our lesson and make changes.

Yes, everybody does actually.

Yes one does.

No, taking responsibility is being willing to suffer the consequences. These are causal consequences. They have nothing to do with god or punishment.