as long as thats whats you feel, you have no problem following the books you noted as long as its by your own PERSONAL interpretation and not too literal or 'extreme'

to each their own,,
but it sounds much like the argument of those who follow the other books...

I personally don't feel any need to follow any books or teachings.

I am who I am because it's who I am. Not because I'm trying to please a deity.

It's not important to me to believe in specific legends.

Although having said that, I would indeed demand that I make my own personal interpretations and decisions about any books. Why should I allow someone else to interpret them for me? That would imply that I believe that I'm not as intelligent nor as wise as them, and it would also imply the I feel that I'm somehow incapable of comprehending writings that supposedly came from my very own creator?

Why would I assume that I wouldn't be able to understand writings from my own creator?

I've looked at the Bible in extreme depth and detail and it's my firm conclusion that the Old Testament is totally unworthy mythology. It's also my conclusion that Jesus (if he existed at all) was most likely just a mortal man who actually had a lot of the same feelings about the Torah that I have. And it's my conclusion that the entire New Testament is just religious propaganda that tries to make Jesus appear to be something that he was not.

That's my honest evaluation of those stories.

It's the Christians who try to use Jesus to pass judgments on others, not me.

good for you, but I do believe you are more intelligent than to walk through life never forming opinions of anything or anyone...

This is an area where I feel that Christians go way overboard.

I pass no "moral" judgments on anyone.

That doesn't mean that I don't form opinions about people. Especially in terms of whether or not I care to be around them. But that's not passing moral judgment on them.

Just because you don't like being around someone doesn't mean that you are passing moral judgment on them.

In fact, if you believe that to merely form an opinion like that about someone equates to morally judging them, then I can see why you could never get through life without judging practically everyone you meet.

Again, that's just "extremism". You taking a simple concept like making rational opinions and turning that into a "moral judgment" made on someone.

I don't believe in that kind of "extremism". If you take everything to that kind of extremism then sure, you'd never be able to keep from "sinning", because you will have defined everything that is innate to being human to being a "sin".

All you'd be doing is demanding that it's a sin to be a human.

you pass judgment all the time in these threads, we all do

I never pass moral judgments on anyone. If you think I do that can only be your own misunderstanding.

So to claim that I "pass judgments" all the time in these threads is false, in terms of "religious moral judgments".

Now I will look at the biblical stories and suggest that I do not believe they came from an all-wise intelligent God because I feel that the stories are neither wise nor intelligent.

But again, that's not a "moral judgment" on anyone. Especially not a moral judgment on "God", because what I'm actually saying is that it's my observation that these stories are intelligent enough to even be from a God.

Moreover, an opinion about how "intelligent" something appears to be is not a "moral" judgment. On the contrary it's a logical assessment. That's far from a "moral judgment".

Almost every reason I give for the why I feel that the biblical stories can't be from an all-wise God have to do with logical reasoning, and not "moral judgment".

I think you're confusing logical reasoning with moral judgment.

Surely you don't think that Jesus expects us to be unreasonable and refrain from assessing whether or not things things are logical or rational?

one need not have read or understood the Bible to receive Gods grace(as is evident by the fact that man preceded the Bible) but man certainly is foolish to IGNORE the resource given them, let alone refute it

And man would also be extremely foolish not to question it.

All I do is ask the tough questions, and the bible fails to provide sane answers to them.

So who's ignoring it?

In fact, Christians always say that we should read it. Well, the more I read it, the more I'm convinced that it has nothing to do with any God.

I see no reason to support something that makes no sense and defies reason, logic, and even what we actually know about the real world.

I'm sure you have no problem tossing Greek mythology aside. Why then should you have any problem with tossing Hebrew mythology aside?

And man would also be extremely foolish not to question it.

All I do is ask the tough questions, and the bible fails to provide sane answers to them.

So who's ignoring it?

In fact, Christians always say that we should read it. Well, the more I read it, the more I'm convinced that it has nothing to do with any God.

I see no reason to support something that makes no sense and defies reason, logic, and even what we actually know about the real world.

I'm sure you have no problem tossing Greek mythology aside. Why then should you have any problem with tossing Hebrew mythology aside?

Probably because Greek mythology has been taught to me as MYTHOLOGY as opposed to the bible written and upheld HISTORICALLy as a collection of several authors regarding the same historical INCIDENTS from differing viewpoints, complete with QUOTES and pretty accurate references to certain scientific, geographical, and mathematical concepts that werent officially 'DISCOVERED' until sometime later,,,,

But Greek Mythology might have elements of TRUTH to it, which still wouldnt change who my God is,,,,

I have no doubt about this at all. Had you been living in ancient Greece you would have accepted the reality of Zeus as God because that picture of God would have been taught to you as being true.

I've moved beyond that and decided to actually question these things for myself.

Otherwise you're just stuck with whatever religion you just happen to be born into.

Very true. One shouldn't take something as the truth just because they were told it was. Finding God doesn't come from someone telling you of him, it comes from your own search. I have done just as such and have found truth only lays with our father, the father of Jesus Christ.

Well, good for you!

The only problem I have with your conclusions is that when you try to convince me of them I see a myriad of holes and fallacies in what you believe to be "truth".

You're explanations don't hold up to rational analysis IMHO. And you also apparently use any excuse and twist things in any direction at any time to try to support your conclusions.

One day, you argue with me when I point out that the gospels have Jesus saying "Ye are Gods". I show where Jesus is supporting a pantheistic view of life as per my theory of who Jesus really was.

You passionately reject the notion that Jesus was actually implying that we are actual "Gods" and point out the fact that it's not even upper case in the Bible and that the term "god" used in lower case was just a reference to human judges etc.

I didn't buy into that explanation in any case since Jesus was actually stating this in response to being accused of Blaspheme any, so I held out that he necessarily had to be implying that we are also Gods, other wise it wouldn't have made any sense in the context of being a defense against a charge of blaspheme.

You rejected all of that and insisted that he did not mean that we are "Gods".

But then later when I'm pointing out the absurdity of a supposedly all-wise God stating in his Ten Commandments, things like "I am a jealous God", and "Thou shalt have no other gods before me". Because a truly all-wise, all-intelligent, perfect God wouldn't have said anything so misleading and ambiguous if what he really meant was, "I am am the only God, and there are no other Gods to worship"

You then argued that there are indeed other "Gods" as Jesus has told us that "Ye are Gods"!

So your excuses for these things aren't even consistent. You're all over the place grabbing at anything you can possibly find to try to defend against the moment. You have no legitimate consistent picture to offer.

Cowboy wrote:

Yes and I apologize for my confusion. I've learned a lot since I started discussing with you. I've learn about what you're talking, we are indeed god's. A cat can not give birth to a dog, it can only give birth to a cat. We are born humans yes, but that is where the term "born again" comes in. When one accepts Jesus as lord and savior to pick up their cross to follow Jesus they then are born again and become children of our father in heaven thus becoming gods.

Nice try Cowboy, but it fails once again.

If what you say here were true, then way back when God was giving people the Ten Commandments his jealously of other Gods would have made no sense since Jesus hadn't been invented yet.

So his communication at that time would have still been totally confusing to the people at that time and it would have led them to believe that there are indeed other Gods and that the Hebrew God is merely jealous of them.

So failure again.

Besides, this would also have represented a gross ambiguity and miscommunication on the part of Jesus himself. Because in his defense of being charged with blaspheme he said, "Ye are Gods", did not say, "Come to me and I will make you into Gods". That would have been worse blaspheme yet!

The only thing that truly makes and sense in this context would be that Jesus was indeed implying pantheism and that we are all Gods equally and that he was no exception to that truth.

Cowboy wrote:

No, you forget Jesus is the word in flesh. Jesus is the word and the word was with God in the beginning. The people before Jesus walked the earth had the knowledge of the word of God, then the word of God was made flesh and dwelt among us.

What's Wrong With Truth?

If Jesus truly was the son of God. The messiah who was prophecised to come to mankind by the Torah, then why all the pretense and games?

When accused of blaspheme why wouldn't Jesus have just spoken the TRUTH?

Why not just say, "Yes, I am the only begotten son of God. I am the messiah of prophecy. Have you not read the Torah? Do you not believe in the word of God?"

If that was indeed the TRUTH, then why doesn't Jesus just tell the TRUTH?

A God who can't even tell the truth or who has to worm his way out of having to tell to the truth by trying to pretend that he's not special would be a God who is just as deceitful and conniving as mortal men.

The mere fact that these stories have Jesus avoiding telling the TRUTH and beating about the bush should be a red flag right there.

When charged with blaspheme he shouldn't have even tried to deny the charge. He should have just confessed the truth of his divinity, (if indeed that was the truth!)

So God was jealous of the word?

And we are not to worship the word?

And we are not to put the word before God?

You have a very strange belief system my friend.

Cowboy wrote:

Jesus did tell them. He said this in place such as "Think not that I come to change the law, but to fulfill" And other different various things. They did not believe Jesus to be the prophesied messiah from the Torah. No matter what miracle he showed, they would not believe. There's only a certain amount of things one can do to make someone believe. You can't force anyone to believe, not possible.