Msharmony,

It may be the case that some people only use one of many meanings that a term has. You're implying that there is some meaning behind the term "slavery" which makes biblical slavery moral. You've supported this claim by pointing out that some slavery is entered into voluntarily; further, that some slavery is a willful exchange between work performed and sustenance(room and board/meals). All else aside, I'll grant that argument. I mean I would be more than willing to agree that voluntarily entering into a set of conditions like indentured servitude is not necessarily immoral. Determining the moral 'quality' of the conditions under which the humans must live requires an examination of those conditions.

You must recognize, however, as Di has already argued, that the term "indentured servant" is and has been incorrectly, perhaps even purposefully used to describe sets of conditions which clearly are immoral - dehumanizing.

The point is that just because there are several different kinds of slavery, some of which may not be necesarily immoral, does not mean that biblical slavery was moral.

likewise, the point that just because there are several kinds of slavery, some of which were immoral, does not make biblical slavery IMMORAL

Right.

That is why we looked at what the Bible says, and have confirmed that the conditions clearly described in the Bible are not moral conditions. There are clear cases of immorality and involuntary. There are clear mandates of life long servitude, and physical abuse - to near death being commanded or condoned through either God himself, through Moses, or through Paul who wrote like 80% of the NT.

The cases which may not be immoral do not justify, nor make the ones that are immoral just go away. One must deal with that when defending biblical slavery, because those ARE the cases brought into question. Those cases are not dealt with by continuing to focus upon semantics which do not describe those cases.

I'm truly sorry to hear that the God in your religious folklore is so helpless and there is nothing more he can do to communicate with the objects of his creation.

Your God has my deepest sympathies.

If your God would like a cup of wisdom, my door is always open.

I have a ton of suggestions that he could really benefit from, and I don't charge for the consultation.

I'm always glad to help whenever possible.

Tell him to drop by and have a cup of tea with me. He'll be so glad he did.

oh, of course, there are CASES from one extreme through the other, there are instructions from several sources about dealing with several specific situations and there are other instructions dealing with specific NATIONS and others dealing in general

its not an easy book to read or decipher or everyone would probably be saints,,,but interpretation is left to each person and each persons heart, at the end of the day

the bible spoke about adultery(as spider) mentioned although I would be hard pressed to believe this is something that was FAVORED as much as it was a significant issue that was arising , and he could have just said do not leave your spouse EVER but he made a provision to deal with that cultures propensity

the bible spoke about incest, but later forbid it

the bible spoke about slavery, but later Jesus(who is the reason behind CHRISTIANITY) gave the 'most significant' order which was to love others as ourselves

God commanded bloodshed and war , at times, as well, but those were specific nations and specific situations that I dont confuse with condoning any and all war

so yea, there were harsh times, different times, and different harsh cultures during biblical times

there was no public welfare, or grants, or federal assistance, so people had other ways of settling debts and providing when 'jobs' were scarce, including 'consentual' slavery


my feeling about it is that it EVOLVED from the beginning of the bible to the time of Christ and after , a great lesson about how we can also evolve which could not happen without having something to evolve from ,,,,,,

Just for the sake of the thread topic I thought I'd re-post the original OP by Dragoness:

thanx, I re-iterate my opinion that values and morals, regardless of where they come from, are a part of the human adapting to cultures

therefore, values and morals have as much or as little affect on being 'genuine' if they come from religious doctrine or family or social culture

I dont have any problem with being both genuine and having personal values which I stay true to

God isn't helpless and again it isn't his job to communicate with you. He opened the door at some point in your life, he showed himself to you. It is not his fault that you turned away and still to this day. There are plenty of people even in this forum that tries to show you god. You willingly turn away at every chance you get. So it is not God's fault that YOU do not believe. You're trying to use a scapegoat. And also God isn't helpless. It doesn't necessarily benefit God by us worshiping him. This is all for US. OUR blessings, OUR gifts, love gave to US.

We weren't created to be pets, to benefit God, to be toys, or anything of such. We are god's CREATION. Everything is for US. Worshiping God isn't for the benefit of God. Worshiping and praising God is just for that, to show our gratitude and love to our heavenly father for the love he gives to us.

I'm sorry Cowboy, but it's only your version of "God" that I reject. Just like you reject Zeus.

You're right, there are plenty of people even in this forum that have shown me God. Most of them have been Witches. A few have been pagans of other sorts. And of course there have been wise sages who have offered me the Eastern Mystical picture of God as well. As far as I can see Paganism is far closer to God that your egotistical picture of God could ever be.



That's contrary to what you biblical fables claim. They claim that your God is a jealous God who lusts to be worshiped and becomes jealous when he's not on center stage. It's all about HIM and his lust to be worshiped and obeyed.

Nothing in your picture is for US. Except perhaps if you believe that Jesus was the sacrificial lamb sent by God to pay for our sins, but you've rejected that notion. From what you've told me, the whole crucifixion was just a misfortune aside, when your God's real purpose was to simply try to communicate with us better than he had previously through the Torah.

And evidently your theory may very well be correct, because if you believe the entire cannon that you call the "Gospels", then Jesus' mission to communicate with us was indeed cut short since he had to then come back as a ghost to convert Saul in to Paul to finish saying what he evidently never had a chance to finishing saying.

Your poor God has all kinds of problems communicating with humans. He can't even make an appearance in person without getting nailed to a pole.

Like I say, have him drop by for a cup of tea, I have much to offer him that would save him a whole lot of headaches. He should have never instructed people to kill heathens in the first place. He can hardly blame them for having nailed him to a pole when he basically commandment them to kill anyone who disagrees with his original writings in the Torah.

What was he thinking?

Just have him drop by for tea. It can't hurt.

Tell him the Moon Goddess drops by for tea all the time, and She truly does have infinite wisdom. Tell him to drop the "macho act" and listen to what the women have to say for once. It'll do him good. Ask any Wiccan, they'll tell you that their Goddess doesn't have anywhere near the problems that the Hebrew male-chauvinistic God has.

If your God could just open his mind a little tiny bit he could learn a lot. He really needs to get over his jealous problems.

The Bible never condoned adultry. It spoke against it, allowing a spouse to leave on those conditions. The Bible does not speak against. nor forbid slavery.

Do you not find that to be a problem?

Simply put, the Bible forbid many things, including things that people already were doing... slavery is not one of those things.

my mistake, I was meaning to post about divorce, not adultery. Divorce is not favored, but a 'condoned' activity BECAUSE of the conditions of mens hearts(men=mankind)

in my opinion, the bible did not need to condemn slavery, as it was(amongst many things) ALSO a form of welfare or assistance at that time to help those who were not able to sustain their own

the bible showed an evolution of man in the flesh and the spirit, from where they came (GENESIS) to where they would end up (REVELATIONS) and everything in between, but as the lessons evolved, so did the culture, even if it wasnt at the IMMEDIATE pace we would expect or demand of our modern culture

I suppose working under conditions of freedom, was not a better(moral) option which would meet the same goal, without immoral conditions???

define freedom, I am not free(contractually) from the hours of 9-5, I am under the policies and rules of my employer

their terms were consistent and around the clock, but there is still a submission of any idea of personal FREEDOM when someone is employing you or has 'bought' you to perform a job

No, it's not slavery, it's far less heinous. If God opposes the relatively minor sin of breaking a marital contract, how much more must God oppose slavery? You automatically assume that God must support slavery, based on the fact that God never commanded his followers to not own slaves. But you are assuming that, God actually did command his followers to not own slaves.



How can you obey the bolded commandment, while you own unwilling slaves?

How brave you are to taunt a religion that preaches peace. I would absolutely love to see you taunt some Muslims in this way.

I have done that... Their 'book' has been twisted in the same way as the oft quoted christian book. Some have simply placed their face into that book to see if I was right. Some (the more extreme) have threatened to do me bodily harm. Some have said that I would know when some disaster comes and god 'removes' me from mankind...

in other words they react just like christians do when a truth is pointed out that they do not like.

As I have said in another thread... EVERY major messenger of god has had their teachings 'twisted' by the manipulations of men (most about 300 years after the 'messenger' has departed the earth). EVERY SINGLE MAJOR RELIGION THAT I HAVE STUDIED HAS DONE THIS.

So Christians in these forums have threatened you with bodily harm? I find that hard to believe.

I haven't heard of anyone having to go into hiding because they drew funny cartoons of Jesus, but I'm sure you'll just gloss that over.

I want to just interject that things dont need to have been 'heard of' to have happened. I dont doubt that people proned to doing 'bad' things slip into the military and the police department and the educational department, but the nature of their propensity for wrong is not necessarily CAUSED by their being a part of the military, or the police department, or the educational department, or even because they are a 'member' of some 'religion'


people will do good and 'bad', they will be peaceful and violent, they will be honest and dishonest,,,

I dont like seeing anyones political party or religion blamed for their choice of behavior

I'm not taunting. I'm quite serious.

You think I'm joking, but I'm not. If the biblical God is real then he could use some advice.

Besides, where do you think the Muslims get the idea that it's ok to kill a blasphemist?

Islam is basically nothing more than that the biblical religion without Jesus. They worship the very same God and the very same original doctrines that you do.

Why do you think it was possible for the Pharisees to incite the mob to have Jesus crucified? Because the OLD TESTAMENT GOD commanded the people to kill heathens and blasphemists. And that's what Jesus was being accused of.

So I'm not kidding when I suggest that the Biblical God of the Christians is in dire need of some help. He's the one who instructed people to kill Jesus for all intents and purposes.

And yes, I do renounce Islam. It's the SAME RELIGION!

Besides, when Christianity was able to make the laws back in olden days they did KILL non-believers. They burnt down the temples of Pagans and everything else.

The only thing that keeps them from doing these things today is laws of secular government. Not the religion itself.

There are, in fact, Christians preacher who advocate the death penalty for gays, for example.

And they wouldn't stop there!

If they thought they could get away with it they'd enforce the murdering of heathens and blasphemists too. Why not? It would be easy to do. The Gospels have Jesus himself stating clearly that not on jot nor one tittle shall pass from law. Well, it's in the law that heathens be sought out and killed.

So Jesus wouldn't change that. He didn't come to "Change" the laws remember?

When he talks about turning the other cheek, etc, he's talking about how believers should behave to each other, not about how heathens should be treated. Heathens are heathens and the "Word of God" says that they must be sought out and KILLED.

So Jesus doesn't CHANGE this religion. People use Christianity and Jesus to spread hatred toward all non-Christians constantly away.

The only thing that keeps them from killing heathens is the secular laws of the land. Nothing from the Bible would stop them.

I do not simply post in threads... I speak this also in life outside the net... Yep. I have been threatened with bodily harm, in one case with a baseball bat.

I have even been 'ejected' from a Roman Catholic church by a priest (who used some very unchristian language... Simply because I said I needed no one to 'interceed' between me and god not even Jesus.

I have been 'shouted' our of a Baptist 'bingo' parlor... The man running it (I have no idea what they call their priests) stated that 'Jesus would want you to dig deep into your wallets and buy tickest... Which cause me to say if jesus was their he would think 'money lenders' had once again over run the temple.

Muslim extremists are more quick to resort to violence... But Christian extremists do exist.

as far a 'verbal' violence and attempted intimidation in these threads. I have been called a lier. I have been repeatedly threatened by some version of 'hell' many times...

I even got called the anti-christ once in a thread...

Truth spoken elicits either a further research by the receiver... Or that receiver gets angry and responds with idioicy.