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| Topic: Are you sure? | |
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Not only is that untrue, but it's laughably so. 1) Did Samson confess that Jesus is "The Christ"? No, he died before Jesus was born, but he is mentioned as having been saved. Saved through knowledge that he was sinful and needed salvation and faith that God would grant him that salvation. 2) Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. 3) You made that up. Well, if you'd like to talk about things that are laughable, I'd be more than happy to oblige. 1) Did Samson confess that Jesus is "The Christ"? No, he died before Jesus was born, but he is mentioned as having been saved. Saved through knowledge that he was sinful and needed salvation and faith that God would grant him that salvation. All you're saying here is that the crucifixion of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb of God wasn't necessarily because the God of the Old Testament could already forgive sins? 2) Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. I'll leave you and Cowboy have that one out since you two appear to disagree on this point. Moreover, if Jesus actually was the God of the Old Testament, then he could have simply taught HIS moral values the first time round in the Old Testament, and he wouldn't have had any need to come and changes all HIS laws. 3) You made that up. So I made up the idea that the Old Testament represents the "Word of God" and thus the "Laws of God"? 
Well, if that's the case then where to Christians get the idea that homosexuality is a sin (include Paul as a "Christian"), and why do they bother with the Ten Commandments at all if they didn't come from God? 
I think today's modern so-called "Christians" are so confused about what their religion is supposed to be about that this is why we have a myriad of different ideas on the topic. In fact this is precisely why Protestantism has so many diverging denominations. No two protesting Protestant can agree on much of anything. ================================================ 2) Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. I'll leave you and Cowboy have that one out since you two appear to disagree on this point. ================================================ I disagree on no such matter. Jesus specifically says "The father and I are one." ------------------------------------ =============================================== All you're saying here is that the crucifixion of Jesus as the sacrificial lamb of God wasn't necessarily because the God of the Old Testament could already forgive sins? =============================================== In the times of the old testiment people sacrificed things they possessed for forgiveness eg., livestock, worthy objects, ect. Sacrificing is how we show our father that we are remorseful for doing sinful actions. Otherwise people could just say vein words "oh father forgive me, oh forgive me, i'm soooo soooooooo sorry" ------------------------------------------- ================================================= Moreover, if Jesus actually was the God of the Old Testament, then he could have simply taught HIS moral values the first time round in the Old Testament, and he wouldn't have had any need to come and changes all HIS laws. ================================================== Nothing was changed. The old testament was FULFILLED. If you'll notice both the old testament and new testament have references of an end of that law. |
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================================================ 2) Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. I'll leave you and Cowboy have that one out since you two appear to disagree on this point. ================================================ I disagree on no such matter. Jesus specifically says "The father and I are one." ------------------------------------ Oh but you did. You were arguing that these very words do not mean that Jesus was claiming to be God, and you gave specific examples of how we are all "one" with our Earthy fathers if we have the same "goals" and purpose in our hearts. 
Moreover, if Jesus was God, then who was the voice that Matthew refers to speaking from the sky? "This is my son in whom I'm well pleased". In fact, a while back you and I had a discussion where I was pointing out the total contradictions of Jesus supposedly being the same as God. That's when you were arguing that he's not. Now that you want to appear to be in alignment with other Christians you change your tune. If Jesus was the God of the Old Testament, (or to be more precise), if the God of the Old Testament became Jesus then he's a bigger fool than anyone can imagine. The God of the Old Testament (or more precisely the AUTHORS of the Old Testament wrote that), God instructed people to seek out heathens and kill them. They also basically defined a "heathen" as anyone who disagrees with the LAWS of their writings. Well, if God inspired those commands and directives, and then came to Earth to be among the very people he had instructed to behave in this manner, then what could he expect but to be crucified? He came and renounced his very own words and teachings. He committed blaspheme by his own rules and standards. Anyone who assisted in his crucifixion was only obeying HIS very commandments and directives. So the God you people are asking everyone to worship is a fool. He's a complete idiot. Moreover, he attempts to solve all his problems using violent means akin to behavior you'd expect to see exhibited by a barroom drunkard. And then he's emotionally distraught after the fact and often sorry for his immature behavior. He's a very mentally and emotionally unstable God. He's also a confessed loser. If he's at 'war' with a fallen angels over who can 'win' more souls, then the fallen angel clearly has him beaten BIG TIME. The Great Flood should have been the end of the game. Clearly Satan had won over the vast majority of souls on planet Earth. But this God couldn't handle losing so he picked up a few promising pieces (that even Christians demand had to have been sinners!) and flush the rest of the sinners over to Satan's side of the poker table. Then starting out afresh with his handful of sinners he tried to start a new game. His act of 'self-sacrifice' in this war can only be seen as an act of extreme desperation. The all-wise, all-powerful God is powerless and unable to come up with a wise solution to beat the demonic angel, all he can do is resort to more violence by having himself butchered on a pole. And even then he confesses that this will only save a few, because only few will make it into the kingdom of God. I mean, if you read this as a fairytale you need to weep for this poor God. 
He's got more problems that he can handle, and can't even handle them with finesse or wisdom. He couldn't even deliver a pristine piece of real estate as his "Promised Land". Even then he had to have his people murder every man, woman, and child on the property in order to live there.
Where does this God actually do something INTELLIGENT, WISE, or POWERFUL? It's a fairytale of a loser God all the way. At best he'll squish the head of the demonic angel at the end to get his "revenge". But is "revenge" the mark or this God? I thought mercy, love and forgiveness, were suppose to be the character traits of this God, not bloody revenge that could serve no useful purpose but to satisfy his jealous EGO. Where's the LOVE in this entire story? It's a fable of a jealous God who loses the vast majority of souls he creates and then as his "prize" he gets to squish the head of the demon who beat him.
What a LOSER! What are we supposed to be worshiping here again? An all-powerful, all-wise, loving, merciful, forgiving God? WHERE? Where in this fairytale do we even remotely see any signs of any such God?
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Moreover, if Jesus was God, then who was the voice that Matthew refers to speaking from the sky? "This is my son in whom I'm well pleased". In fact, a while back you and I had a discussion where I was pointing out the total contradictions of Jesus supposedly being the same as God. That's when you were arguing that he's not. Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Colossians 1:15-21 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Two beings: The LORD, the King of Israel and His Redeemer, the LORD of hosts proceeds to speak using the words "I" and "me". Not "we" and "us", but "I" and "me". God the Father stands outside of the universe, while Jesus created and works within the universe. God the father spoke of Jesus the son. Jesus prayed to God the father. After 40 years of studying the bible, you still get school by people half your age and with 1/20 of your claimed experience.
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The LORD, the King of Israel That says it all right there. It's a cultural myth. In fact, John has a revelation of Jerusalem being made up like a bride for God in the end days.
This mythology is so culturally dependent that it can't possibly be related to anything truly cosmic. The people who wrote these stories had the mentality of pre-school children and couldn't think beyond their own backyard. |
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this message is for arcamedees. there is no deed or series of deeds, only belief/obedience and unbelief/disobedience first off, the QUOTE button is your friend...
Secondly, I know this is hard for you to understand, but try to follow me here... Believing in something or obeying someone is a DEED. Look it up. You have a finite life in which you will do DEEDS, like believing in things and obeying God and such. And somehow, whatever one does in a finite life merits an infinite reward or punishment? Yeah, that seems fair. 
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im not living in fear, just reverence. im not asking you why neither. im making the statement that it is impossible for an atheist to ever be sure that there isnt a God. this is something you want to be sure about because by the time you realize that there is, it may be too late. why, that's just silly... Kinda reminds me of the Flying Spaghetti Monster theory....lol |
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i often wonder, how can an atheist be so sure that there is no god, that they are willing to jeopardize eternity for a mere 70-100 years of life. its kinda funny because you can be certain that there is a God if you truly know him, but you can never really be certain that there is not if you dont know him. What's interesting is that today's atheists aren't atheists in the traditional sense. Friedrich Nietzsche understood what atheism meant, but today's atheists comfort themselves with false ideas and spend their time thinking about how terrible religion. By this reasoning 'modern' atheists are then just like the religious... Comfort from man made ideas and falsness created by man. 
not uh! |
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i often wonder, how can an atheist be so sure that there is no god, that they are willing to jeopardize eternity for a mere 70-100 years of life. its kinda funny because you can be certain that there is a God if you truly know him, but you can never really be certain that there is not if you dont know him. I see no reason to believe that a person's belief is going to have anything at all to do with their eternal fate. That kind of rhetoric only stems from the Abrahamic Religions with their supposed jealous egotistical God who hates anyone who refuses to love him.
Who would want to worship such an ignorant selfish God for eternity anyway? Even if that mythology were true your best bet would be to tell that God to go jump in his lake of fire because he's clearly not worthy of worship. Unless, of course, you'd be willing to worship a demon just to save your butt from death. Personally I would gladly choose death over becoming the mindless slave to an evil demon like the biblical God. Our father hates no one. He only loves. That is why he offers eternal life. If he didn't love you or someone else, would he still offer the eternal life? I think no, but he does. Heaven is merely a gift. Gifts are generally earned in one way or other. Not "bought" but earned through love. umm...If one has to earn a "gift", it's not a gift. It's payment for services rendered. |
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its funny but also sad that when i read the remarks that the athiests post, i can feel a sense of anger behind their words. why so angry guys? im trying not to laugh here but i cant help picturing you guys with a scrunched up face while you are typing. listen up close, i dont hate or dislike any of you because you dont believe. believe it or not but i have more compasion for people like you because you are truly blinded. who doesnt have compasion on a blind man? im not trying to convert anyone. i simply state the truth as the holy ghost has taught me and i dont speak on things that i dont fully understand. its your choice to believe or not. if you dont believe, i dont love you any less and neither does God. he loves you just as much as he loves me. this is what is so amazing about him.
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By this reasoning 'modern' atheists are then just like the religious... Comfort from man made ideas and falsness created by man.
That's rich, coming from a man who created his own "religion" using pieces of other religions and claims to have personally met God. I 'created' what? 
You have met god also. Every human you meet... God is there also. |
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Our father hates no one. He only loves. That is why he offers eternal life. If he didn't love you or someone else, would he still offer the eternal life? I think no, but he does. Heaven is merely a gift. Gifts are generally earned in one way or other. Not "bought" but earned through love. But it's impossible to earn this supposed gift through "love". According to the Christians the only way to achieve this gift is to convert to Christianity. First, confess that Jesus is the "The Christ", then acknowledge that he was the Only Begotten Son of the God of the Old Testament, and THEN confess that the entire Old Testament must necessarily be the "Word of God" and thus represent the LAWS of God. What does any of that CRAP have to do with "LOVE"? I can tell you right now, that it has absolutely nothing at all to do with Love. All that crap has to do with is Christian bigotry. Trying to hold the ignorant ways of a sick demented male-chauvinistic and homophoic society over the heads of modern people. That has absolutely nothing at all to do with "Love". Christians use Jesus to spread hatred and religious bigotry, and the mere fact that they pretend to speak of things like "Love" only shows just how horribly blinded they truly are. Christianity is only a title given to us because of atheists and other beliefs. There's no "conversion" necessary. The only things necessary are accepting Jesus Christ as your sacrifice for your sins. You do this by the way you live. For if you believe in him "accepting his sacrifice" you would follow the teachings that he gave. That is the ONLY thing necessary to gaining salvation. Jesus is the light that leads our way to the father. And it has everything to do with love. The greatest display of the greatest love is laying your life down for someone else. Weather that's literal or symbolic. Jesus LITERALLY laid his life down for us so that we can share in the glory of God. All you have to do is sybolically lay your life down for our father in return. Live your life for others including our father and not for just you. Of course you'll have to live for yourself eg., going to work, meeting a woman, building a family, ect. But through your actions of how you live your life is how you'd be laying your life down for the father. =================================== Christians use Jesus to spread hatred and religious bigotry, and the mere fact that they pretend to speak of things like "Love" only shows just how horribly blinded they truly are. ==================================== Christians spread no hatred or religious bigotry. Christianity spreads equality, love, compassion, and so much more. And here's a simple form of how it spreads as such. Equality = We ALL fall short in the glory of God. Thus no one is better then another, we are all equal in this boat of life. Love = Offering eternal life. Everything you would ever want or need at just a whim of asking for it. Compassion = Offering forgiveness of sins and trespasses you may have done. There is but only one unforgivable sin, and that is denying the lord thy God. ALL other sins are forgiveable if you seek the forgiveness. Kudos for thinking that. Your naivete is rather cute. Kudos for being that way yourself. However, that is certainly not how most christians present their religion. |
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The LORD, the King of Israel That says it all right there. It's a cultural myth. In fact, John has a revelation of Jerusalem being made up like a bride for God in the end days.
This mythology is so culturally dependent that it can't possibly be related to anything truly cosmic. The people who wrote these stories had the mentality of pre-school children and couldn't think beyond their own backyard. And that's different from most people now?? |
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Edited by
AdventureBegins
on
Wed 10/27/10 08:18 PM
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'I disagree on no such matter. Jesus specifically says "The father and I are one."'
The truth is in these small words. (though some of the book be false). Yet you can also claim this and be speaking truth. For god stands with each of us. (though in so doing his glory is greater than mine - I can stand only with me) |
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its funny but also sad that when i read the remarks that the athiests post, i can feel a sense of anger behind their words. why so angry guys? im trying not to laugh here but i cant help picturing you guys with a scrunched up face while you are typing. listen up close, i dont hate or dislike any of you because you dont believe. believe it or not but i have more compasion for people like you because you are truly blinded. who doesnt have compasion on a blind man? im not trying to convert anyone. i simply state the truth as the holy ghost has taught me and i dont speak on things that i dont fully understand. its your choice to believe or not. if you dont believe, i dont love you any less and neither does God. he loves you just as much as he loves me. this is what is so amazing about him. My, but how condecending. And you wonder why we get angry... Look kid, I'm sure you're a real nice guy and I'm glad you found something that makes you happy but I'm guessing you don't actually debate anything because you can't. If you want to preach unto the masses, I believe there's a place for that. I suggest you go find it. Staying here will only cause you pain. Ask Cowboy how happy he is with his rate of conversions so far... And I've got a lot of respect for him. He at least swings back, so to speak. |
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i often wonder, how can an atheist be so sure that there is no god, that they are willing to jeopardize eternity for a mere 70-100 years of life. its kinda funny because you can be certain that there is a God if you truly know him, but you can never really be certain that there is not if you dont know him. I see no reason to believe that a person's belief is going to have anything at all to do with their eternal fate. That kind of rhetoric only stems from the Abrahamic Religions with their supposed jealous egotistical God who hates anyone who refuses to love him.
Who would want to worship such an ignorant selfish God for eternity anyway? Even if that mythology were true your best bet would be to tell that God to go jump in his lake of fire because he's clearly not worthy of worship. Unless, of course, you'd be willing to worship a demon just to save your butt from death. Personally I would gladly choose death over becoming the mindless slave to an evil demon like the biblical God. Our father hates no one. He only loves. That is why he offers eternal life. If he didn't love you or someone else, would he still offer the eternal life? I think no, but he does. Heaven is merely a gift. Gifts are generally earned in one way or other. Not "bought" but earned through love. umm...If one has to earn a "gift", it's not a gift. It's payment for services rendered. Yes if the reasoning of doing the services is in working towards getting the gift. Those things you did that were suppose to be nice and loving have then turned to selfishness. But if the obedience is done not in working towards the gift but just lovingly done, then that loving thing of which you did was done in a great dead. Do you do sweet things to your spouse in hopes of getting rewarded? Or do you do those sweet loving things just to show your love for her and make her feel special? It's all about where your heart is in the given action. |
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Our father hates no one. He only loves. That is why he offers eternal life. If he didn't love you or someone else, would he still offer the eternal life? I think no, but he does. Heaven is merely a gift. Gifts are generally earned in one way or other. Not "bought" but earned through love. But it's impossible to earn this supposed gift through "love". According to the Christians the only way to achieve this gift is to convert to Christianity. First, confess that Jesus is the "The Christ", then acknowledge that he was the Only Begotten Son of the God of the Old Testament, and THEN confess that the entire Old Testament must necessarily be the "Word of God" and thus represent the LAWS of God. What does any of that CRAP have to do with "LOVE"? I can tell you right now, that it has absolutely nothing at all to do with Love. All that crap has to do with is Christian bigotry. Trying to hold the ignorant ways of a sick demented male-chauvinistic and homophoic society over the heads of modern people. That has absolutely nothing at all to do with "Love". Christians use Jesus to spread hatred and religious bigotry, and the mere fact that they pretend to speak of things like "Love" only shows just how horribly blinded they truly are. Christianity is only a title given to us because of atheists and other beliefs. There's no "conversion" necessary. The only things necessary are accepting Jesus Christ as your sacrifice for your sins. You do this by the way you live. For if you believe in him "accepting his sacrifice" you would follow the teachings that he gave. That is the ONLY thing necessary to gaining salvation. Jesus is the light that leads our way to the father. And it has everything to do with love. The greatest display of the greatest love is laying your life down for someone else. Weather that's literal or symbolic. Jesus LITERALLY laid his life down for us so that we can share in the glory of God. All you have to do is sybolically lay your life down for our father in return. Live your life for others including our father and not for just you. Of course you'll have to live for yourself eg., going to work, meeting a woman, building a family, ect. But through your actions of how you live your life is how you'd be laying your life down for the father. =================================== Christians use Jesus to spread hatred and religious bigotry, and the mere fact that they pretend to speak of things like "Love" only shows just how horribly blinded they truly are. ==================================== Christians spread no hatred or religious bigotry. Christianity spreads equality, love, compassion, and so much more. And here's a simple form of how it spreads as such. Equality = We ALL fall short in the glory of God. Thus no one is better then another, we are all equal in this boat of life. Love = Offering eternal life. Everything you would ever want or need at just a whim of asking for it. Compassion = Offering forgiveness of sins and trespasses you may have done. There is but only one unforgivable sin, and that is denying the lord thy God. ALL other sins are forgiveable if you seek the forgiveness. Kudos for thinking that. Your naivete is rather cute. Kudos for being that way yourself. However, that is certainly not how most christians present their religion. That's their failures. Our father teaches us to be as previously mentioned. |
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i often wonder, how can an atheist be so sure that there is no god, that they are willing to jeopardize eternity for a mere 70-100 years of life. its kinda funny because you can be certain that there is a God if you truly know him, but you can never really be certain that there is not if you dont know him. Wisely stated. 
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Compassion = Offering forgiveness of sins and trespasses you may have done. There is but only one unforgivable sin, and that is denying the lord thy God. ALL other sins are forgiveable if you seek the forgiveness. That should be a dead give-a-way right there for you! Only the Abrahamic Religions have such a hateful egotistical God who condemns everyone who refuses to "believe" in him.
And don't forget that's the same God of Judaism, Islam, Catholicism and Christianity. But since all those religions have diverged into grossly different beliefs, then only ONE of them (if any) can hold the original truth, all the others will necessarily be condemned. So you're betting on Jesus because you like that 'version' of God better than the others.
Well, if you can expand your mind just a tad, then recognize that Wiccans, Buddhists, and others are simply betting on even better versions of God. So clearly God is a gambling game. We're all betting. The atheists are just betting that there is no game.
I'm betting that God is actually wiser, and more loving than myself, thus I choose Pantheism and variations of Wicca and Faery Lore. You're betting on the ancient male-chauvinistic Hebrews. So we're all gamblers and we're all betting on the "God who plays hide and seek". We just all lay our bets down differently. You're hoping against hope that you've got your chips on the right number. I'm happy with my chips right where they are. I trust the Goddess, She's nicer than me, and that place here in the top running for God. Why would I bother to bet on a God who isn't even as wise or loving as myself? That would be silly. Of course, I don't really "need" to bet on my vision of God because if She's real then we're all "saved", or more precisely no one was ever truly lost. 
When you stop and think about it, you're actually betting that God's a loser. That's where you've placed your bet. |
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Edited by
CeriseRose
on
Wed 10/27/10 09:03 PM
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So, because you choose to live your life in fear then you have to ask ME why? The fear that Christians have toward God is "reverence and respect". The fear that a blasphemer has is "fright" and often "anxiety". fear [feer] n (plural fears) 1. feeling of anxiety: an unpleasant feeling of anxiety or apprehension caused by the presence or anticipation of danger [example: "showed no signs of fear"] 2. frightening thought: an idea, thought, or other entity that causes feelings of fear [example: "irrational fears"] 3. reverence: respect or awe for somebody or something [example: "the fear of God"] 4. worry: a concern about something that threatens to bring bad news or results (often used in the plural) [example: "fears for their safe return"] v (past and past participle feared, present participle fear·ing, 3rd person present singular fears) 1. vti be afraid: to be frightened of somebody or something or about taking action "She fears going to the dentist." 2. vt feel reverence for somebody or something: to show respect for or be in awe of somebody or something "fear God" 3. vt express regretfully: to be sorry to say something (formal) "I fear that you have not been successful on this occasion." [ Old English fǣr "calamity, danger," fǣran "frighten" < Indo-European, "to try"] Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. |
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i often wonder, how can an atheist be so sure that there is no god, that they are willing to jeopardize eternity for a mere 70-100 years of life. its kinda funny because you can be certain that there is a God if you truly know him, but you can never really be certain that there is not if you dont know him. How can you be sure that the God you know is the same God that others also claim to know? How do know that the eternity your God offers is not one of servitude and oppression? What does your God say is the price of a ticket to eternity? (like requirements or pre-requisites) Do you know God on an interactive level - or is the communication just one way (him to you)? Just wondering because Abraham seemed to have a good repore with his God - heck, Abraham even questioned God's judgement conserning Sodom and even persuaded him to lower his expectations. Is that the kind of relationship you have with your God? Is that how well you know him? |
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