I have said this before but the bible never said Judas died when his intestines fell out.He probably fell off some rocks or something similar,had a serious injury where his intestines were hanging outside his body,felt like he was cursed by God,and shortly after the accident hanged himself.Seems like a perfectly logical theory.

You could get a lot more mileage out of books like the 'Dune' series. At least with those, one isn't coereced into a Suspension of Disbelief on peril of Really Bad Things Will Happen To You If You Don't.

And isn't it amazing how prophets often meet violent, premature ends at the hands of those following older prophecies? For all their repudiations of evolution, they themselves evolve quite perceptibly.

One might even say "predictably", too.

One is always safer to observe, "Yanno, there's never much of anything _really_ new under the sun. It's all just marketing."


-Kerry O.

The way this religion is written it's impossible to "deny" Christ.

We have absolutely nothing that came directly from him. All we have is hearsay from clearly untrustworthy mortal men. Moreover, this very story tells us that all mortal men are sinners, thus we have no reason to even trust these mortal men.

At best you can place your faith in people like Mark, Matthew, Luke, or John (most of which just repeated Mark's rumors and weren't even consistent in their re-telling.

And then we have Paul who just took these rumors and made commentary on them whilst dredging up a lot of stuff from the Old Testament to preach in "Jesus' Name".

It's impossible to put your faith directly into Jesus, because all that exists about Jesus is undependable hearsay.

Moreover, recognizing that this hearsay is totally undependable and untrustworthy is not the same as denying the person who is being portrayed in these rumors.

So it's basically impossible to "deny" your Christ.

Also, it's just as impossible to "confess" that Jesus is God. The reason being that you can't very well "confess" to something that you have no way of knowing is true or false.

This kind of mentality is precisely the way those people back then lived. They would place the point of their sword at someone's throat and demand that they "Confess" that their GOD is the only true God.

It's like little kids fighting and demanding that the other one scream "Uncle" in order to show that they've lost.

No truly divine supreme being would behave in such an ignorant and immature way.

To believe in this mythology is to insult our creator. Because these mythology demands that the creator is immature and ignorant. Not to mention being highly hung-up on his own ego.

It boils down to where you want to put your faith. Do you wish to put your faith into the bible and that the stories are true? or do you wish to put your faith into we've been into space and even walked on the moon and that those stories are true?

There is absolutely NO WAY to "prove" either one of those. You may say well they have pictures of us in space, well i can print you pictures of me running butt naked on the moon if you wish.

Again there is ABSOLUTELY NO solid proof for either side amongst many other things of this world including history.

there is plenty of the bible directly attributed to Christ,, because someone hasnt had published biographies doesnt mean they arent worthy of being aknowledged,,,,the prophets gave their accounts of his life and his words,,,

when presented with the knowledge, one can certainly choose to REFUSE to believe it, to essentialy DENY the existence or validity of his life and his legacy

Or, one can EXAMINE the claims on their MERITS, and employ LOGIC and SKEPTICISM based on the EVIDENCE to reach one's own conclusions.

It's not without good reason that religion discourages or outright FORBIDS questioning.


-Kerry O.

You do not need any religion to live a good life as a good person. Bear in mind you will ALWAYS walk among bad and evil. It is as much a part of our lives and good is! How can walking among others lead you to personal salvation? If you are not living the life of an utter fuque up there is nothing to fear.

Man how I can see this, "Oh Allah I was a good persona and lived a good life, why are you condemning me?"

"Just becasue you were not Islamic!"

Now what kind of God is that? I would spit in that God's eye myself. I don't need any book or blind faith to tell me how to live. i choose to live a good life as best I can. But I will also do what it takes to survive! That means at times I got to get evil.

Truly. I completely agree.

I slap mosquitoes too. We have too. Like you say, there is "evil" in this world we have no choice but to deal with it. In fact, the very concept of "evil" is relative, depending on who thinks they are being treated unjustly.

It's a dog-eat-dog world. That's a fact. And if there is a Creator, then that Creator is the one who made the world the way it is. Any idea that mankind caused the world to be the way it is, is truly absurd.

Therefore the Creator is totally 100% responsible for having created "evil", not us. So tell all these egotistical Zeus-like Middle Eastern Godheads to go shove their judgmental egos up their Alpha and Omega, because they have nothing over anyone. They are just as sick and demented as any mortal human being.

Gods who hate heathens?

There's nothing righteous about that. Hitler hated everyone who disagreed with him to. It's no big deal. Any human can be that disgusting, we certainly don't need any Gods who are like that.

I actually had a conversation with a Christian and brought up the whole need of a church by Jesus's own teachings. I asked him why would I need the death of another man to absolve me of sins I never committed. Especially if I choose to live a good life and to try to walk among my fellow man with grace. In the Church's own Dogma we are supposed to be born innocent and therefore now born sinful. We are however born of a supposed act of sin. But again how does the death of another man absolve anyone of acts they knowingly commit?

I love it when people are left stunned in thought. Then I mentioned life under the ten commandments of Moses or the two commandments of Jesus. I love leaving people with questions some minister is going to have to answer. I met him before too. Interesting fellow. I am sure he knows of me and my "eccentric" views on life and God.

I am putting up the good fight for truth!

How can you put up a "good fight for truth" unless you can recognise it?

So, was your "conversation" with a Christian or a pagan?

my religion doesnt forbid or discourage questioning, it encourages the use of logic, but also the use of faith

which some think has to exclude logic to exist, but others do not

if a simple 'truth' is presented, and one chooses( because they havent used their own five limited human senses to VERIFY the information) to believe it they are still at Gods mercy and must take the path with Jesus to reach Him,,,and if they do indeed not believe in HIM to begin with, than what have they lost and why would they complain that they wont be seeing Him?

Its kind of like getting upset that some believe in the moon landing because I dont(hypothetically speaking), its the outrage and passion with which some attack the faith of others which I dont quite get

certainly, people will believe what they choose to believe, but why get upset over something one proports not to even believe in in the first place ,

actions and words are worth passionate condemnation or support,, not faith

imho

If by "religion", you mean Christianity, you should re-examine your logic.

You are soooo far of-base I wonder if you post just to see your typed words???

There's no comparison here at all.

As far as the idea that we've been to the moon goes, it makes sense to me. I was already highly educated enough by the time we did that to know that we have the technology to actually do it.

More over, if you ask me to compare whether it makes more sense that we put a man on the moon, or that the whole thing was an elaborate hoax I would say that it's actually easier to believe that we actually did it.

Finally, it's no big deal even if it turned out to be a hoax. Who cares? No on is attempting to demand that you either believe we went to the moon or some invisible jealous God will hate you and be mean to you.

I've already told you this many times. When considering ancient mythologies about all-powerful jealous gods, simply ask yourself two questions as you read the mythology.

1. Do these stories represent something that a truly all-wise supreme being would say, do, or command people to do?

2. Do these stories represent something that a brutal male-chauvinistic society would write to try to justify its behavior in the name of some Zeus-like angry godhead?

When I ask myself those two questions when reading the Bible question #1 never makes any sense, but question #2 reveals precisely what the stories sound like to me.

So I see no intellectual basis for placing any 'faith' that these stories might be true.

Now let's move on to emotional and philosophical motivations. Is there any emotional of philosophical motivation why I might wish for these stories to be true?

Well, no, there isn't. These stories make mankind out to be totally worthless idiots. They also make god out to be a totally unwise and insensitive idiot. I can offer a better solution for every problem in the Bible. This mythological God solves all his problems with methods that are crude, violent and basically utterly stupid, IMHO.

So why would I want to place my 'faith' in the idea that my creator is a crude, violent, and utterly stupid being?

These stories also demand that I'm a "purposeful and knowing sinner who is rejecting God's laws just do I can do my own thing". I know that's a falsehood. So I can see that the mythology contains lies.

Everything I've said up to this point is valid even for the Old Testament alone.

When we get to the New Testament I have even more reasons why it seems utterly senseless to place my "faith" in these stories. Even after reading these stories I see no reason to believe the Jesus was anything more than a Pantheistic Jew who learned of Mahayana Buddhism which makes perfect sense in that time period.

All of the claims that he was the "only begotten son" of Yahweh came from the authors who were writing about him. I see no evidence even in their writings that Jesus himself would ever support such a conclusion. It's all just hearsay from men who were attempting to make Jesus out to be something that he never even claimed to be.

So from my point of view, the New Testament doesn't even represent something that I would even remotely consider placing my faith in. I see absolutely no reason to believe the claims of those men. Especially the claim that God's Voice came from the sky proclaiming that Jesus is his son in whom he is well-pleased.

That's pretty much a dead give-a-way right there how desperate these men were to have their stories believed.

Finally, going back to the pure emotional or intuitive faith again. Does it even make any sense to me that the Creator of this universe would be appeased by a blood sacrifice? No, it makes absolutely no sense to me at all, in fact, that one of the "stupid" things in the Old Testament that cause me to reject it in the first place.

So there are a myriad of reasons, both intellectual, and intuitive, as to why these stories make no sense.

Furthermore, if you turn it around and ask, "Does it make sense that men would create this kind of threatening religion to support their male-chauvinistic ways and get people to support their ideas as the Word of God"

Absolutely that makes PERFECT SENSE. Especially when they were asking their readers to judge and stone sinners and heathens to death. The men who wrote these things knew that there is no all-powerful God to keep people in line, so they tried to get the masses to become "God".

The purpose and source of these mythologies is obvious to me. There's no reason to place any "faith" in anything other than to recognize the obvious truth. Men wrote these horrible things, not some supposedly all-wise god.

So I see no reason whatsoever to even want to give them any merit. We should toss them in the trash as the stories from a really crude and unwise society. Not worship these sick stories as though they are the word of some all-wise God.

A Christian actually... I party more often with Pagans!

They have more fun!

I have to also say the real sinners are people who blindly and ignorantly follow a path of deception like Islam and Catholicism. if you cannot question your faith it is not worthy! Faith must be adaptive or you get cults and fanatics and just as bad zealots!

Islam is all about conflict and revenge and "justice." That unto itself IS a sin!

Actually, the SINNERS have much more fun, but that's a whole different channel....

Perhaps you've been partying too much? I know that you are aware of the pagan influence, you yourself have posted a quite lengthy post on that subject. Maybe you're uninformed as to how many pagan concepts have crept into organized religion(s).
Here's just a few:
Trinity...
Virgin birth...
Jesus as a deity...
X-mas trees...
Human sacrifice being condoned...
Ritualistic canibalism...
Confession to a man...

Most of those are in direct contradiction of scriptures yet a lot of "religions" would teach these man-made doctrines as the "truth".

I am well aware that many times there is a difference between what someone says they are and what they actualy are, how about you?
Would you uphold the belief that someone who claims to be Christian that practices religion and lifestyle contrary to the teachings of Jesus is in fact, a Christian? Would you recognize that they are not what they claim to be? Would you believe a guy a foot shorter than you if he said he was 6 feet tall?




Now I'll address the issues of your conversation.

you said:
"I asked him why would I need the death of another man to absolve me of sins I never committed. Especially if I choose to live a good life and to try to walk among my fellow man with grace."

And you've never been directed to Romans 2? You should read that and the next time you have that "conversation", if they can't give you an answer, direct them there. That'll leave 'em stunned for sure.


you also said
"In the Church's own Dogma we are supposed to be born innocent and therefore now born sinful. We are however born of a supposed act of sin."

That first sentence is a bit confusing, I don't see how you drew your conclusion at all... Anyways, infant baptism is yet another pagan construct. Baptism is supposed to be a concious and willing ceremony, one which an infant is incapable of agreeing to, let alone understand.
And if you think sex is a "supposed act of sin", does that belief come from the Bible or some "religious" teacher? I ask because in my Bible, sexual pleasure is a gift, a wonderful gift I might add...


So do you have any questions that'll leave me stunned in thought?


*edit*
Not sure, but was "now born sinful" supposed to be "not born sinful"?
I only ask because I thought you were refering to infant baptism as is praticed by many "religions".
If it was supposed to be "not", then ignore the baptism crap and use my first response in response to that (Romans 2)...

"Man will never truly be free until the last king is stangeled with the entrails of the last priest."

I beg to differ. To questions is to suspend faith and the Bible is all-or-nothing on the topic of having an honest disagreement with your god or the articles of faith which make up 'salavation'. It is punishable by the worst
torture imaginable.

But don't take my word for it, look back in history. Read what happened to Galileo for questioning. Look at the Spanish Inquisition. Try as you might to wash these stains from religion, they just won't come out.

Let's examine religious logic with questioning now, shall we? Latter day Christianity crows about saving people like Jeffery Dahmer from hell, about how, according to some Christian sources, he is now in heaven. Yet a demonstrably good man like Gandhi, by that same faith, is buring in hell. Great Humanists of all stripes are thusly condemned.

And there's no logic to it. Why couldn't a godhead, if he want to reward the most pious of the One True Religion, make a heaven for them and let the rest spend enternity in some suburb of heaven, some benign place that called upon its inhabitants to work, solve problems, love each other and work towards a community of their own? To save Hell for the Worst of the Worst, people who murder children and prey on the weak?

But no. It HAS to be an all-or-nothing deal-- The Few, the Proud, The Uber Christians!!!! The 'Faith' will abide nothing less. No mercy for those who see things differently, NO individuality, just blind and total obedience or ELSE.

Sorry, but that 'logic' reeks of fallacious human arrogance to the nth degree and I CANNOT in my own Good Faith support such barbaric religious fiat. It is unjust and makes no sense when its details are examined critically.

BTW, such thinking about faith and salvation on the part of Mike Huckabee saw some pretty lowlife ciminals being released from jail to kill and rape again.

-Kerry O.

Hey, try being the poor kid who has to go to weekly Exorcisms because your father (born again christian and not one of the good ones) believes your emotional problems stem from demonic possession! My father was such a fuqued up religious freak he refused to admit HIS issues were causing me to have issues but it was all Satan's fault!

I have not turned away from spirituality. I have turned my back on ALL religion. Still to not learn about them and what they are is a worst sin of intentional ignorance.

And Likewise I chose not to live in the light of Islam and therefore I am condemned? I hope they understand Satan is just keeping my throne warm for me until I get back. Then who will they have to face in the afterlife? Not some guy in a red suit carrying a pitchfork. Try a very angry white boy with a penchant for knowing how to inflict in ways that are legendary! For all those Misogynists out there, there will be a daily beating at the hands of women followed by a hiding of the Pineapple (Thank's Little Nicky. I was inspired by how Satan treated Adolph Hitler!) And pedophile priests? I got a couple of Pit Fiends in mind who just ADORE man on man love. And that is not a third leg they are packing. All these priests who feel Homosexuality is not a sin in the church will find out fast that in hell, NOTHING is a sin unless I deem it so!

Abandon Hope ye who enter!


Just kidding...



Then again...

AGain, my religion, the bible I studied, gave no instruction on Dahmer or Gahndi(though Im sure religious and non religious alike have theories about where he might have ended up)

and Jesus himself was CRUCIFIED by those interpreting his actions to be against their beliefs but being that my religion doesnt worship the PEOPLE of the bible but instead Gods word and Jesus sacrifice

Id say, I have not been taught by my religion not to question, , in fact, Jesus REGULARLY answered questions himself and dont recall him personally harming anyone for asking them. It is the heart with which one seeks knowledge that is the trouble, it is nowhere suggested in my bible that seeking knowledge is wrong only that MEN did (and still continue to) persecute people for not abiding by their own customs....