too many tangents to respond to so I will stick with AFfirmative Action,,,

what part of stopping employers 'from discriminating against any employee or applicant for employment because of race, skin color, religion, gender, or national origin' is so offensive or unfair to you?

what part of the already present inequality caused by years of segregation and racial discrimination is truly even debatable?

If our country had been EQUAL from the beginning, I could take the opposition seriously.

But when people IGNORE the HUGE HEAD STARTS our history has allowed them in the STATES, to complain about actions being made to equal the playing field and then have the GALL to call those who were denied the equal opportunities and resources 'crybabies', I wince at the hypocrisy.

Philadelphia Inquirer quoted Farrakhan saying, “White people are potential humans ... they haven’t evolved yet.” Farrakhan is a white hating, America hating, and Christian hating racist promoted by Trinity United Church of Christ! Statement of a bigot.

Louis told the crowd that the “wheel” ship would one day destroy the white man and bring Blacks into power. Another bigoted statement.

In February, 1996, Louis did a five-week tour of the world’s most despotic nations. In Iran, he was reported to have said “You can quote me: God will destroy America by the hands of Muslims…. God will not give Japan or Europe the honor of bringing down the United States; this is an honor God will bestow upon Muslims.”He is not only a nut case but also a TRAITOR/TERRORIST to the nation that provided him the opportunity to live in regal splendor on his 77-acre country estate in addition to two posh Chicago homes! Therefore, he is also an ingrate.

Pastor Wright accompanied Farrakhan on his trek to visit Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi and other Muslim middle east terrorists and Dr. Wright candidly said, “When [Obama’s] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli…with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell.” Well, I think all Obama’s financial support should dry up quicker than that! In 1996, Louis also visited with Yasser Arafat, master terrorist, Saddam Hussein, terrorist monster and other terrorist renegades. Obvious TRAITOR/TERRORIST, and the visiting party illegally sought to negotiate with foreign powers

Why hasn't Farrakhan been tried as a terrorist????

has he organized or trained others to cause harm to americans?...

He met with and attempted illegal negotiations with known terrorists.

I doubt there is substantial proof of this or they would have prosecuted him. What 'negotiating' power does he have that would be illegal?

to avoid the round and round I looked up the definition of terrorism (domestic) according to the USDOJ

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/presley.htm

The United States Department of Justice defines domestic terrorism as:

The unlawful use of force or violence, committed by a group(s) of two or more individuals, against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.(4)


this would most likely not include someone like Farrakhan who uses his SPEECH to express religious opinions and separatist preferences

I think it is difficult for those to understand why minorities are having a hard time advancing unless you have spent many years working next to them.Despite all these programs to advance minorities they never seem to make any progress.I have worked with people from Mexico,South africa,Thailand,Vietnam,Laos,Somalia,Afghanistan,Ukraine,Prague,Uzbukestan,and many other countries.I have noticed similarities in work habits from the countries these people come from.

Russia,Ukraine-Hard workers.Always on time.Never sick.Never complains.

Vietnam,laos and other Asian countries-Anti social,not the hardest workers but dependable,never complains,dedicated to their work.

Somalian-Hard workers but not the most realiable.Not the most social people either.

How come we never ever hear anyone complaining from these groups of people?There is a very large Asian population in this country that is discriminated just as much as the Mexicans and blacks(probably even more as many don't speak english)yet I have never heard any protesting,lawsuits or other problems coming from these people.You wonder why you never see any homeless Asians?It's because they work hard and don't break the law.They sure the hell don't need AA either.


Hispanics-If they immigrated from Mexico they are dependable hard workers.If they were born in America they are typically unreliable,and often complain.

African americans.In my opinion some of the worst workers.The older ones do just fine.The younger ones are a diaster.Often late or don't shop up at all.Taking 20 minute breaks when you should be taking 10.Many times only doing the minimum amount of work.Not being team players or helping others with out asking.


I have also noticed anytime the company posts new job openings that pay considerably more money the minorities never apply.It is always white people.They just want to be stuck with that job.I remember many times jobs offering after work classes to advance your career or learning new trades.Once again the immigrants are never there.Even if you had a company had 100 immigrants and told everyone that if you come to this class after work you will get a extra dollar a hour from now on for your hourly wage I doubt if you would get 20 people to show up.If you told that to 100 white people everyone would show up.Minorities just seem to never take that extra step to do more work then they are required to do.They are always happy just doing the bare minimum.


I would also like to point out that you have hundreds of programs to help,support,and advance women and minorities in every way possible.You don't have any support programs for the White male!There is nothing out there.If your a white male struggling,hurting,or need assistance where are you going to go?It seems to me if you are going to erase skin color and say everyone is equal yet offer hundreds of programs to blacks and minorities and kick the white male to the curb you have problems.


I also agree that AA is total bulls**t.Martin luther king said he dreamed of a day when people would not be judged by the color of the skin but by the content of their character.AA is only judging people by the color of their skin and not the content of their character.Martin luther kings dream is dead.

Hey guys,
i realize this is a touchy subject, but lets please not turn it into a race war. There are some valid points here, but there are also, a few insulting posts. Please help us avoid pulling the thread, by following the forum rules.

Thanks,
Mark

having a hard time advancing or having a hard time being GIVEN The opportunity to advance

AA at the hiring level isnt about what other minorities have done or dont do,, it is about assessing POTENTIAL employees without discriminating against their race(because of such broad stereotypes that alot of non minorities hold before they even KNOW a minority)

I will make several points and then I suppose I should end my participation because, as an african american woman,, this has become VERY offensive and seems like some are unwilling to research or learn the facts instead of repeating unsupported OPINIONS based upon exceptions to the norm....


1. lazy young people are rampant in ALL races

2. Immigrants must come here with a SUPPORT system already in place,,,ie,, they are here on a work visa with an employer already in place,, or they come here SPONSORED by someone with the money to assist them,,,,


minorities born in THIS country do not have that support IN PLACE ahead of time,,they have to EARN (and be given a fair opportunity to earn) it

3. the advancement of those already in power is a given,, preferences are built in because of people being in the majority that lessen a NEED for special programs,,,although those programs do exist in the form of exlusive networks and economic status...

its like a person with use of both legs complaining that they havent been given special ramps upon which to travel,,,


4. It is JUST the type of mentality ingrained in this country for centuries,,that minorities in america are somehow inferior,,,inferior in ambition, inferior in capablity , inferior in intelligence, that makes AA a necessity. When over NINETY percent of those in charge of hiring employees are Non minority, that personal attitude cant be kept out of the hiring process unless it is MANDATED to be.


5. AA was in place before it referred to minorities, by way of exclusive networks, by way of financial status/power, by way of assumption of innocence and intelligence and ability, but those who benefited from the unspoken version of AA and those who oppose AA(usually without truly educating themself on what it is) never tend to aknowledge that fact or its significance to why we are where we are in needing policies in place for others.


6. I have worked and been schooled amongst non minorities just as often if not more than non minorities have had to work or be schooled around minorities,,, and trust me that neither group in america is any more or less lazy or hard working than the other. But one group has a much larger network of connections and status to boost their odds...

case in point: all these claims that an employer explicitly tells a potential employee NOT only that they didnt get the job,, but WHY,,

and not only that they didnt get the job

and WHY

but who DID get the job,,,

I have NEVER in my life had that much explanation given behind me not receiving a position, makes me think there is some SPECIAL network there that makes people feel so INCLINED to explain their decision in such 'illegal' detail

I think everyone brought up some good points here.I am certainly not against anyone working and becoming successful no matter who you are.I also know every company out there has one goal in mind.Making money.In the end it is not going to matter what color you skin is.What really matters is if you "have the skills to pay the bills".I know no company is going to turn down a person who has shown he can make that company a lot of money with his skills.This was always the case in my profession(welding)where you had to demonstrate you could weld in various positions through a welding test.Needless to say you were hired if you could pass the test regardless of your skin color as few people could do all positions well.

I think schools need to emphasize a great deal on the success,inventions,and business of the minorities and how they got to where they are now instead of always portraying them as someone who is always getting the short end of the stick.I know when I was in Michigan at the Henry ford museum they had many signs explaining the early inventions of African americans.One of them was the invention of the automatic railroad coupler.One of the most important inventions in railroading history.That man went from a labor to multi millionaire overnight.There are thousands of stories like these never told in the schools.Even today in the modern media minorities are always portrayed as someone who is always at the bottom.This just isn't true.Millons have become rich,successful,and just as important as anyone else in America.Why the media can't do a segment on rags to riches of successful immigrants is beyond me.

I support hard work and ambition too. We do not live in a world where skin color doesnt matter,,not when SO many applicants are available for any one job opening. I too would love to see more positive portrayals of minorities ,,,,

anyway,, Im off to the gym,, a bit of steam to work off,,,,have a peaceful evening,,,

The issues here are freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. White Supremacists are rightfully reviled. Groups with opposing social and political viewpoints justly assembled.

This leads ultimately to the crucial part of the argument.

Limitations on freedom of speech. Specifically, hate speech. It has long been held (thank you Wilhelm Von Humbolt - On the Limits of State Action) that there are good reasons to have some minimal limitations on free speech - particularly on not yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater - a "harm principle" - in which incitement to immediate violence may be restricted. Physical harm NOT merely psychological distress. There are always differing opinions and these differences will always cause psychological distress but that is not the same as inciting violence. Free discourse must be protected even if it means airing disgusting or objectionable arguments. It always ultimately leads to a discussion of pornography and hate speech.

It is a slippery slope - yes. One of the most difficult and contentious subjects. Much has and will continue to be written and read on this subject. But one can begin here...."Schooled in Hate"

http://www.adl.org/sih/sih-intro1.asp

and here...

"Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy - Freedom of Speech"

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freedom-speech/

Let the ranting go on!

Its 2010 and people are still arguing about race...

As long as there are extreme militants on either side, yes.
Farrakhan can get away with and be admired for his hate mongering while others are hated and condemned.

This topic started out as an Illegal Immigrant topic.

Would you call me a criminal, since I jaywalk on a regular basis?

I'm not comparing jaywalking to illegal border crossing - I'm questioning the literal use of the word 'criminal'.

I consider immigration laws to be UNEQUALLY applied and enforced and definitely oppose ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. To me, its the same as someone entering my home unknown to me and without giving me any opportunity to confirm who they are and laying claim to it because ancestors MAY have once lived there and been unlawfully kicked out, or laying claim because they had kept spotless a room I never happened to enter or clean myself.

It just seems quite ridiculous.

Freedom of speech, is a right I understand but a complex one which , although it has my support, I wouldnt exactly FIGHT for in EVERY situation.

you jaywalk!

yes,, just not a convicted one....lol
Im a criminal too, I occasionally receive music or movies without paying. There are plenty of laws people break on a regular basis,,,speed limits, pirating,,etc,,,,,and yes , those people are criminals for committing crimes,,,,quite simply put.

but the issue for me is this,,, equitable application of the law. You jaywalk,,,and how many jaywalkers are in jail, what does the law(police in this situation) usually DO with jaywalkers,,,not very much. I would guess that its considered a misdemeanor. Misdemeanors are not crimes considered to have large social impact.

we have borders and border checks for a reason,, people in THIS country pay taxes to sustain it, we are citizens and that does actually imply a DIRECT connection to the land that supercedes any other type of connection. There are checks and balances to keep the country from becoming financially overburdened(LEGAL immigrants must prove financial resources) or overrun with criminals(LEGAL immigrants must also provide any criminal history) and certain paperwork and research MUST Be done in order to do those things. That is why we have immigration laws and procedures. ANd when people work their BEHINDS off to follow those procedures and then others are given permission to IGNORE them,, it kind of frustrates me.

MsHarmony,

I agree with much of what you say in this thread, and I understand that some of what you say is in response....well let me just say that I know it can be difficult to talk to people whose passion exceeds the breadth of their view.



Absolutely true, and its also true that some racists try to justify their bigotry based on the mis-use of some otherwise accurate perception of a subset of a group. It is always wrong to presume (prejudge - prejudice) knowledge of someone based on their skin color.

Yet, there are trends within subcultures (which are not divided on only racial lines, but: racial, geographic, economic, and more) - and those trends have consequences for those subcultures. I once knew a group of russian-americans who were all thieves. Their individual actions were influenced by the actions of others that they associated with and identified with. Eventually many of them went to jail.



I may be repeating someone else, but low income white people are not in power. Low income white people are the ones usually the most bitter about AA, and I think they have a legitimate beef. I think this is a bit of a hiccup in our cultures history - we have been focused on racial inequality far more than class inequality.



...for middle and upper class white people.




This is the part which I wanted to respond to (specifically the word 'ambition'). There is a sick history, especially in the effort to 'justify' slavery, of beliefs like the ones you describe here. We still have groups of people nurturing this illness, and those people will jump at the chance to take certain facts out of context, or to project meaning onto those facts.

However, the problem of racial inequality these days is not just one of equal treatment and equal opportunity - my position is that it is also a consequence of (sub)cultural values. I think its ignorant to lump black people together and speak of 'the values of black people', that makes no sense. I can try to refine this to, say, 'low-income black people living in oakland', but still there are group-exceptions, like maybe a particular church of low income black people in oakland whose congregation/community is successful in teaching certain values to their youth. (And of course there are always individual exceptions).

Regarding 'ambition' - it has been my experience working with low-income youth (in certain regions, with certain backgrounds!) that the african-american youth are far, far more likely to proudly and stubbornly declare (and act on) a disinterest in education than mexican-american, white, or other youth. You are right that you will find laziness, rebelliousness, disinterest, lack of ambition, etc, amongst all groups - but in my experience these tendencies are not evenly distributed.

Anyone who thinks this is 'inherent to the race' has their head up their ***; anyone who thinks 'well, they (black people) get what they deserve, then' isn't thinking this through, or looking at the big picture.

But I disagree with the idea that lines of thought like the one I am giving here are 'nothing more than a continuation of centuries of bigotry' - there is actually some truth to the idea that a groups shared beliefs and cultural values can be a source of dis-empowerment.

This assumes that people are rational; people are not rational. Personal preferences and biases play a huge role in several stages of the hiring process.