The issues here are freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. White Supremacists are rightfully reviled. Groups with opposing social and political viewpoints justly assembled.

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Free discourse must be protected even if it means airing disgusting or objectionable arguments. It always ultimately leads to a discussion of pornography and hate speech.

yes,, just not a convicted one...There are plenty of laws people break on a regular basis,,,speed limits, pirating,,etc,,,,,and yes , those people are criminals for committing crimes,,,,quite simply put.
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There are checks and balances to keep the country from becoming ... overrun with criminals(LEGAL immigrants must also provide any criminal history) and certain paperwork and research MUST

When we say 'we don't want the country to be over-run with criminals' we are not really talking about 'people who have broken a law' - otherwise, we are all criminals, and the word has lost its value in designating an undesirable element of our society.

I always mentally translated the word 'criminal' to something like: 'habitual law breaker with little to no respect or consideration for the law, and especially the rights of others as protected by the laws, including property and personal safety'.

But it turns out I'm wrong:

I can relate,, and whether by your definition of criminal or the dictionaries,, there is no way to telepathically know such an individual. THere needs to be an opportunity to research and CHECK them out.

MsHarmony,

I agree with much of what you say in this thread, and I understand that some of what you say is in response....well let me just say that I know it can be difficult to talk to people whose passion exceeds the breadth of their view.



Absolutely true, and its also true that some racists try to justify their bigotry based on the mis-use of some otherwise accurate perception of a subset of a group. It is always wrong to presume (prejudge - prejudice) knowledge of someone based on their skin color.

Yet, there are trends within subcultures (which are not divided on only racial lines, but: racial, geographic, economic, and more) - and those trends have consequences for those subcultures. I once knew a group of russian-americans who were all thieves. Their individual actions were influenced by the actions of others that they associated with and identified with. Eventually many of them went to jail.



I may be repeating someone else, but low income white people are not in power. Low income white people are the ones usually the most bitter about AA, and I think they have a legitimate beef. I think this is a bit of a hiccup in our cultures history - we have been focused on racial inequality far more than class inequality.



...for middle and upper class white people.




This is the part which I wanted to respond to (specifically the word 'ambition'). There is a sick history, especially in the effort to 'justify' slavery, of beliefs like the ones you describe here. We still have groups of people nurturing this illness, and those people will jump at the chance to take certain facts out of context, or to project meaning onto those facts.

However, the problem of racial inequality these days is not just one of equal treatment and equal opportunity - my position is that it is also a consequence of (sub)cultural values. I think its ignorant to lump black people together and speak of 'the values of black people', that makes no sense. I can try to refine this to, say, 'low-income black people living in oakland', but still there are group-exceptions, like maybe a particular church of low income black people in oakland whose congregation/community is successful in teaching certain values to their youth. (And of course there are always individual exceptions).

Regarding 'ambition' - it has been my experience working with low-income youth (in certain regions, with certain backgrounds!) that the african-american youth are far, far more likely to proudly and stubbornly declare (and act on) a disinterest in education than mexican-american, white, or other youth. You are right that you will find laziness, rebelliousness, disinterest, lack of ambition, etc, amongst all groups - but in my experience these tendencies are not evenly distributed.

Anyone who thinks this is 'inherent to the race' has their head up their ***; anyone who thinks 'well, they (black people) get what they deserve, then' isn't thinking this through, or looking at the big picture.

But I disagree with the idea that lines of thought like the one I am giving here are 'nothing more than a continuation of centuries of bigotry' - there is actually some truth to the idea that a groups shared beliefs and cultural values can be a source of dis-empowerment.

I doubt there is substantial proof of this or they would have prosecuted him. What 'negotiating' power does he have that would be illegal?

I understand that there are subsets in every race which we could point to to justify some racial stereotype,, but to use that as justification for racial discrimination(as I think we agree) is absurd.

I believe there is NO reason to pre judge people based upon their skin based upon what others with like skin may have done.

I have the opposite experience,, in working near low income youth,,, of white youth and mexican youth wearing ignorance as a badge. I dont know of any official study that has been done on this , so I will chalk it up to personal experience and give equal credibility to both yours and mine.

All races , especially amongst youth, can loose hope and ambition when they dont see any real alternatives in their environment,, and I understand that. I understand that people dont starve gracefully, whatever race.

I personally don't care what farrakhan says or does. He has the right to speak and make a fool of himself whenever he pleases. I'm only posting this because you said there was no evidence of him cavorting with terrorists..


Officials to Block Qaddafi Gift to Farrakhan
By RICHARD W. STEVENSON
Published: August 28, 1996


WASHINGTON, Aug. 27— Clinton Administration officials said today that they would almost certainly reject an application from the Nation of Islam and its leader, Louis Farrakhan, to be allowed to accept a donation of more than $1 billion from Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi of Libya.

Mr. Farrakhan defended the gift today and said he would mount a vigorous fight if the Government barred it.

''We will fight for what we believe is our legal right,'' Mr. Farrakhan told a news conference in Chicago, ''and I will go across the nation stirring up not only my own people, but all those who would benefit from it.''

''We are not terrorists,'' Mr. Farrakhan said. ''We are not trying to do anything against the good of America. What we want to do is good for our people and ultimately good for our nation.''

Colonel Qaddafi pledged $1 billion to the Nation of Islam after meeting with Mr. Farrakhan in Libya in January. Mr. Farrakhan has described the pledge as a ''humanitarian'' gesture, and last week he formally asked the Office of Foreign Assets Control at the Treasury Department for the necessary permission to receive the money. The United States, which has long labeled the Qaddafi Government a supporter of terrorism, bars nearly all economic ties with Libya.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/08/28/us/officials-to-block-qaddafi-gift-to-farrakhan.html?pagewanted=1

These are not the only reasons that a low income person might abandon hope or ambition; community values and beliefs are so important.

There are parts of this conversation which hint at comparing/contrasting 'white people' (as a whole) to 'black people' (as a whole) and just for the record, I think this is useless, counterproductive, and not based in reality...however, there are smaller groupings of people for whom these comparisons may be valid or useful.

Consider a group of white teens in a particular trailer park, who use crystal meth, several of whom have alcoholic fathers, who spend their time tagging - they are participating in a micro-culture whose shared values will influence their future. This has nothing to do with suburban white people or gated-community white people, but its still a real cultural phenomena with group-identity component (and race is part of that) that can effect their futures.

In our reality, its easy to see this - how their cultural identity and values have a huge influence on their future.

If we lived in a reality where black people were a majority, made most of the money, ran most of the huge companies, and (until recently) held most of the offices of power, etc etc - it might be harder of us to see the impact of their own (white-alcoholic-trailer) culture on their future. Institutionalized racism would carry most of the blame, and we might not pay attention to other factors. But being in that alternative reality would in no way diminish the influence that white-alcoholic-trailer-culture had on the future of those white youths.

When it comes to bridging the racial gap in the middle to lower class range, I am increasingly of the opinion that community values and cultural identity pose a larger obstacle than institutionalized racism (these days).

This is not an argument against AA, as there are obviously many obstacles/issues which should be dealt with on their own terms, and institutionalized racism is still a problem.

I live alone. I struggle alone and don't have family to fall back on. I don't live in my parent's basement. I got responsibilities and a job. Sheltered? As if honey child! (this is where I am giving you you the chicken neck and the L finger!) I don't fall back behind any sense of self delusion. People succeed through effort, not being a pack of whining crybabies expecting hand outs and generosity where there is none. Everyone wants to be the victim. (oooh, snap snap!)

Now for AA being around still. Executive Orders are different from actual policy mandates. It takes a president to cancel them. I think Bush did that! I have to check. The Fed is having to go round and round in court over people still angry about AA still hovering around in Federal hiring. So don't get all happy about it still being around. Obama only changes things to give him exposure when he needs it.

Also Liberal Organizations abuse the legal system just like any one else does. The thing is they sue people over some extremely ludicrous BS. Our justice system is overworked bu crybabies who won't negotiate on both sides. On top of that our justice system is not about justice and only serves where money is involved. People's "violated rights" always boils down to how much money they can be awarded!

What about the financial loss to the folks of Ruby Ridge? Who is suing whom over the use of MILITARY force on American civilians within America proper? Oh but I am now Smooth EZ formerly known as Russel Johnson, a no account, beer drinking (all day long mind you) black man from Compton (with no education past the 10th grade because I dropped out because HS was BULL S***!) and I went to get a job at Toyota and they said I needed an MBA in business to be a manager there and they turned me down for some Peckerwood who mommy and daddy sent to college (whether or not that is true) and now that white man has my job! Where is the NAACP!

What??? This doesn't happen? REALLY????

A supremest attitude is one where a group or individual thinks they are better than other people by gratis of religion, race, or any other reason. Bugie people are ones who used to live an impoverished life and suddenly they win the lottery or something like that and they are suddenly better than everyone else acting like blue bloods when they ain't.

Hitler was out to perfect the master race. Oddly Aryans come from India. His ideals of perfection were based on blond hair, blue eyes. Black Israelis, remember them? They make the Black Panthers seem tame. in their eyes my white skin marks me for life. They think they are superior to everyone else. Elitists think they know what is best for everyone and they are above their own rules.

AA was the toy of the devil. Again writing laws on top of laws is BS! We need better enforcement. Oh but I am sheltered! Yeah! How is it one women can achieve while others can't? Well, for the same damn reasons as men!

Also illegal immigrants come from Haiti, Cuba, Mexico, China, Japan, Canada, and a host of other countries so do not assume blanket ignorance on everyone's part please!

I know this is a complex issue, and I have a lot to learn, but my gut says that freedom of speech is paramount. I am proud to live in a country where white supremacists and others with insane, despicable, a potentially dangerous beliefs have the right to peaceably assemble and to voice their views.

Farrakhan's with the Nation of Islam...which is an organization that may claim to be muslim but are far from it. we don't recognize them as muslim however some things that comes out of his mouth is truth..and we all know truth hurts.

I am not a Farakkhan fan, although I admire his intelligence. I also never said he didnt cohort with terrorists(cohort is actually not a word I would really use in casual conversation..lol). What I said was there was no proof of NEGOTIATIONS with terrorists. I was not aware that charity was considered a negotiation,,,however,,but even with that

would a terrorist ask PERMISSION from the government they were opposing to make a negotiation with a terrorist?

I didn't say he WAS a terrorist, did I? He tried to take a billion dollars from a terrorist. As far as asking for permission, I would think that anyone who wants to bring in a billion dollar contribution from a foreign government probably has to let someone know their intentions. It's not like you can bring a suitcase full of 100's through customs without some sort of declaration.

Pretty obvious, I would think.. Then again..

actually, someone else asked why he hasnt been deemed a terrorist by the government. It is very obvious that a LAW abiding person would ask permission before accepting large amounts of cash. A criminal or terrorist however, (such as a drug runnner) would most certainly NOT ask permission from the very people they were somehow seeking to destroy.

If you admire things about Farrakhan, do you have the same admiration for David Duke?

Farrakhan's Nation of Islam, David Dukes KKK. Mirror images.

I know this is a complex issue, and I have a lot to learn, but my gut says that freedom of speech is paramount. I am proud to live in a country where white supremacists and others with insane, despicable, a potentially dangerous beliefs have the right to peaceably assemble and to voice their views.