unsound thinking due to lack of looking for the wrong things and not seeing. Not seeing the trees for the forrest. Because of unsound thinking..... the nominal church claim we go to heaven right away....making the resurrection a lie.....and the free gift of eternal life non effect by teaching we have an immortal soul. You thinking is blinded in the oppisite by looking to support your unbelief instead of giving yourself a fair shake at understanding. I mean none of this as insult...but with concern of you having the truth proven of the faith. But even if it does not come, God will open the books to you in mercy in the second resurrection. Peace!

There is much of the plan of salvation you lack and most Christians lack it also. They learn the words but don't understand the causes and effects.

The blood has the breath of God himself in it. No other thing on Earth is Holy enough to pay the sin penalty. The penalty of sin (not obeying the law-commandments) is death (Spirit). Only by the sheding of blood unto death pays the debt. Christ (logos-God) laid down his eternal life and became fully human as we and tempted as we. He laid down life to cover all because it is eternal. But the remissin of sin comes from the sheding of blood to death and Christ has not died yet. He died sinless and did not have a death debt to the law. So he died in our place with an eternal life laid down...which covers all. Now by his life eternal regained he will give to us also of the eternal and we shall be like hime of those that are his. Yes! He had to die!, Yes it was planned and performed.

God (logos) became fully in the flesh and was mere mortal man. Then without sin he died and regained his former estate and going to hell (grave) and rising now has the keys to the grave.....life again eternal.....

In case you ask! animals were not able to remove sin for all time. Only up to that sheding......why....in them was the life from God and the animals were innocent as was Christ. A temporary redeeming being not immortality involved.

Scolars are confused to this day as to why Cains gift was not looked upon with the favor of Able's....no sheding of blood (animals) and they may never understand it.

The more one learns in a true form the things of the Bible the more it all is a perfection and a proof of its own true word of God. The problem is that most all are blinded. The more you know the more perfection it is......This I do affirm to all with caring!

Just because you think it's a good story doesn't mean everyone will.

I give it two thumbs down.

The problem I have with the story is that the creator is supposed to be infinitely wise, yet this story does not reflect infinite wisdom IMHO. On the contrary, if it were a movie script and I were a movie producer I wouldn't even be interested in it. That's how bad it is from my point of view.

I don't even have infinite wisdom and I could created a far better senario for creating and raising souls than this scenario.

Now you might say, "Oh but you can't say that because you don't know the whole plan". But that's baloney. This God is supposed to be all-powerful, and all-wise. Therefore there can be no limitations if there were limitations then it would be a lie that with God all things are possible.

So given unlimited possiblities, I can certainly create a better scenario for creating, teaching, and raising pet souls.

I'm not impressed with a God who, at one point, has to drown off his entire creation, and at another point has to sacrifice his only begotten son.

Moreover, you claim that this had all been pre-planned. If so, then why two different methods of dealing with sin? If the salavation sacrifice where in the plan that should have taken place instead of the flood the first time.

I'm sorry CYCLOPS, but your claim of perfection just doesn't wash. There's nothing perfect about this story. It's a mish-mash of violent and desperate "fixes" that never seem to even work.

And why hasn't this all-wise God ever come up with something truly wise?

I'm sorry but having people brutally beaten and nailed to a pole, just doesn't fall under the heading of a "wise solution" in my mind. There's just no way. If you think that's wise, then I'd hate to see what you call stupid.

I leave you people to your own.

I post no further on this subject.

Cyclops!

exactly how do you murder someone without killing them .....not sure even God can pull that one off.....but it does pose an interesting question ....maybe it only applies to cats ...you can murder a cat and it will have 8 more lives, but that only works on TV

also since it was Jesus mission to die... was Jesus murdered or was he killed ....or did he use the incident to help him commit suicide and martydom

if Adam and Eve did not know about good and evil and killed someone would it be murder or would it become murder only after they took from the fruit....either way you look at it they killed

this also prose another interesting question...if Adam and Eve were in the garden unknowingly committing evil because they lack the knowledge of good and evil wouldn't that mean they were already sinners and condemn to go to Hell before they took from the fruit

Since you asked I will reply.

To kill is one form and murder is another from of killing. If a man attacks you to take your life, to defend you would kill him. He was attacking you to take from you, he was trying to murder you. It is two sides of a coin. Not the life/death coin. Once again: a man waits for his wife to come home to murder her, she then kills him. Murder is a certain state of killing.....motive!

The Romans killed Jesus. The Jewish leaders murdered him using the Romans as the meathod of killing. Christ did come to die for us. But he did not kill himself by his own hand. He just knew the outcome due to the evil of the people. If a man goes to war and knows he has no chance, he will go and those who kill him are in control but odds are certain he will die. He died for others home.

Adam and eve: If they did not know good and evil....there would be no motive for killing or murder. As to the second part of your question on Adam and Eve. If a toddler took a piece of candy innocently.....it would be innoncent. The knowledge of good and evil was not given so they could not sin for two reasons: innocence! and the law was yet to be given. Sin is transgression of the law....no law - no crime. When they ate the fruit....they knew the law and therefore sinned unto death.

Your efforts are misguided....use less time to come up with such things and use most of the time studing and MUCH will be answered as you learn.

to kill is to take a life...doesn't matter what the reason was...the end result was that you kill someone

this is why God said "Thou shalt not kill" and why Jesus taught to turn the other cheek ..because you are not supposed to kill "period" unless God himself command you to do so...

to do otherwise or to make excuses why it's ok to kill actually proves the point of this thread...because "to kill" is the knowledge of good and evil which was granted to you by Satan

murder is to kill
as apple is to fruit

example,, If I murder I have killed AND If I eat an apple I have eaten fruit

BUT it does not follow that

If I kill, I have murdered, and if I eat fruit I have eaten an apple

once again a bad analogy....where in The Ten Commandments does God states "Thou Shalt Not Eat Fruit"

if there were such a commandment then we would have to debate whether it's a sin to eat a tomato since some classify the tomato as being a fruit and others classify the tomato as being a vegetable

This is why God said "Thou Shalt Not Kill" ..which means do not intentionly take a life...to knowingly try and find ways to circumvent around his commands ..is the prelude to disobedience

Christain loopholes, the stuff that witch burnings are made up.

There are even modern day preachers who would have all gays sentenced to death, because they claim that in the Old Testament God commands us to kill homosexuals. And of course, Jesus did not come to change the laws one jot nor one tittle, so there you go! A perfectly legitimate excuse to murder anyone who is guilty of same-gender love in the name of God.

Christian loopholes.

It's a very DANGEROUS mythology to put your faith in, and/or SUPPORT!

oh but incorrect, yes the old testament does tell us to stone them. But Jesus fulfilled the old testament and gave us the new testament. The old testament no longer applies to us, only what is in the new testament.

Now before anyone points it out, yes the 10 commandments were in the old testament, BUT if you follow the teachings of Jesus he will teach us not to do the same as was in the 10 commandments.

So why did "God" change? (From the old to the new testament it is a completely different God, new rules etc.)

God didn't "change". Everything works in phases. The day, the seasons, EVERYTHING. In the beginning there wasn't many people on the earth, but the starting phase ended when the world grew to a larger population. With a larger population you would have more people saying they are doing something to another cause of a punishment for whatever but it not be true, this would become more prone with a larger population. So that phase end and started phase two, giving Jesus to us so who ever believes in him shall live forever.

and it's not a completely different God from old testament to the new.... can you give some examples to go with this statement?

He did indeed change. The God of the old testament was a tyrant. (stoning children burning witches, killing pagans and heretics etc.) and then Jesus came along and "preached" love and kindness in the Zen Buddhist fashion. This is not the same god, or else this god had a change of heart, or else he is just pretending to be 'nice' to gain followers. It was the old time religion made new to gain followers and put many religious sects under the roof and power of the Roman Empire.

The Empire lives today, and there are efforts underway as we speak to find a way to create a one world government worshiping under one God.

Its all politics. Its not really about God at all.

sometimes God has mercy. AS Jesus (in understanding the harshness of our hearts) set aside an ALTERNATIVE for those who wished to set aside their wives,,,,,,The old testament laws were given to Gods people who were under the rule of God and therefore disobeying certain rules was similar to treason and met with capital punishment. After Jesus came, we were all given the opportunity to be 'chosen' and the laws evolved to show mercy

I am glad they did, I dont know that I could live up to all of the original laws of Israel....and now I dont have to be an Isrealite to be chosen

my analogy did not mention the ten commandments,,,so it was sound
The commandment is to not MURDER, which is but one type of killing

As msharmony said, the Old Testament laws were specifically for the Israelites. But you have to appreciate some of the laws as they pertained to health. What to eat, what not to touch, to clean things with water. If you pay attention, you will notice that "unclean" food was acceptable to give to those who would eat it, and if an Israelite was ever traveling or visiting another's home they were supposed to accept whatever food was offered to them, even if it violated their law.

Jesus made a distinction between man's law and God's law. He acknowledged that Moses granted permission for couples to get divorced, but in no way did he endorse divorce.

Jesus was also angry with the church and Pharasise(sp) as they were becoming greedy and more about flesh and self than God and others. These are the same people who wanted Jesus punished for healing on the Sabath.

So, contrary to what keeps being said, Jesus did not preach against Gods law, he preached against man's law. And I do not see where God has changed.

So, where does that leave God?
Did He write those laws or did a mortal man write those laws?
Did god enforce the laws or did man?


Maybe a little bit of both...

"Did He write those laws or did a mortal man write those laws?"

God wrote those laws using a man, because sin separates the world from God, God works through people rather then showing his face and doing things.

It is the same God we have today, he did NOT change. The only thing that "changed" was that people are no longer judged for their sins on earth eg., stoning, hand for a hand, ect. We will be judged by Jesus when he returns.