Christianity has enjoyed a monopoly in the religion department for a quite a few years. In days gone by they were able to eliminate those who tested the religion as witches or heretics and sometimes have them killed for it. Nowadays apart from the Christian terrorists and occasional religious zealot murderer, they cannot kill individuals for believing differently.

(Of course this doesn't include the religious wars we still fight that are killing the enemies of the Christians, but that is a longer subject)

So now that the religion is being tested at each juncture, legally or in the government, politically, socially, etc .... They would prefer that we leave them to how it has been for them with their monopoly. It makes perfect sense.

This makes no sense to me Eljay. If by quantity you mean good vs. bad deeds, then you agree with my issue - as it was expressed. Are you considering 'pride' to be a bad thing? Is one wrong for being proud of doing right?

None are justified because no one is subject to what is rightfully fair?

What does that even mean?




Eljay, I believe you're taking Paul's words completely out of context. The wages of sin is spiritual death. When one gains the enlightenment of spirit they do so from avoiding to continue thinking and therefore acting in the same manner(s) which led up to the need for the enlightenment to begin with. The hope which is gained from seeking 'better' is gained from within. It requires the removal of that which blocks the 'light'. Before whatever that is can be removed, it must first be identified as blocking the light.

The value of time has nothing to do with fairness, at least not as I am considering what is to be called 'fair'. If by the above you mean if 'God' would punish man immediately for his sins then there would be no one mature enough to pro-create, then I must ask...

All sins are to be held as equally punishable in terms of the punishment itself? I suspect that this is what you're getting at, or what grounds your response here. I also believe that that is as immoral as hell. Pun intended.

I, as a loving parent, would never punish all misbehavior(s) with equal force. I certainly would not punish my children for modeling my own behavior(s). After all, they learned it from me... right?

Saturine...yes as you just said a forum is a place to express your opinion and say what you think

but to come to a place where people express their opinions and say what they think just to complain about people expressing their opinions and saying what they think is ....er...how can I say this without offending anyone .....DELUSIONAL

I think you'll find I wasn't complaining about people simply expressing their opinions. I was commenting on the topic of the debate and that it's been done to death. But I guess it's just my opinion ,that in the same way you have your right to go on and on about a debate that has been raging for longer than anyone can remember, I can criticise it. Just as you can criticise my choice to do this and yet, I have to ask what has this achieved? I haven't changed my mind and you haven't changed yours. Thus my point is made.

you know what else been done to death... people coming into a debating forum just to complain about people debating

C.S.

I'm doing quite well my friend - although at this time i could do without the governor of Massachusetts. The man is an IDIOT! He's taking my job away - or trying to.

I kind of thought that this is what you were really thinking, though I'm glad that you came out and said it in this post.

As to the O.T. I have had this discussion with Abra before, and I will pose the same question to you:

What would you have had God do that would have been an improvement on the situation?

I cannot justify, or explain WHY God says on one hand - "do not murder", then orders every man woman and child to be destroyed in another chapter. But I also cannot claim that I am knowledgable - or even as Just as God to claim that I have a "better idea" of the way things should have gone - nor do I have enough information to know why these actions might not be totally justifyable as they were! I don't lose any sleep when we imprison criminals like animals - or even put them to death as a consequece of their actions, so I view the acts of the old testament in the same way. Nor do I feel hypicritical about it. I can say that actions lead to consequences - in some cases execution - while at the same time saying abortion is wrong (for instance). I don't feel that I have to "understand" the Old Testament "logic" as it were, or justify it through my understanding of morals as I know them today. Nor do I see them as contradictory. What I see - is a lack of evidence on my part to formulate an opinion that causes me to think I know better than God! And in doing so - now question the existance of God, based on a moral standard I've justified for myself - given what little information I have to even formulate an opinion in the first place.

At least that's the stance I take on it. I only seek to understand it better - not try to devise a ways or means to think I could have improved on it.

Funches - I cannot pass up this rare opportunity to fully and whole heartedly agree with you.

When I say that the issue is one of quantity - it has nothing to do with the "amount" as it were, but the mere fact that there is an occurance. I know that you are well aware that the issue is not the severity of the sin, or even the amount of it when one stands before a rightious and just God to give account of oneself - for "all sin and fall short of the glory of God". It is for this reason - that it makes no difference if it is Mother Teresa, or Ted Bundy standing before God - without Jesus standing with them as their advocate, their place in eternity is determined by thier own decision. Either they chose to spend it with god, or without him. And one makes this decision by declaring the decision they have for Christ. On this point both you and I stand in equality with Hitler in god's eyes in the day of judgement. Now - it's not a matter of whether or not one believes this is the case, or if they even think that it is fair or just. In Christianity - it is what is! And how could it be any different? It doesn't make sense to "weigh out ones salvation" with the amount of good deeds one does vs bad deeds. Who becomes the judge? Who sets the standard? One persons good deed could be the misfortune of another. Robin Hood comes to mind here.

As to the idea of "pride" - being proud of one's accomplishments is a misnomer on what is meant when the bible chastises man for his "pride". Being confident is one thing - being prideful is quite a different matter. It is the self-centered aspect of being prideful to which I refer. not necessarily the self accomplishment aspect.



While I don't find fault with your observation of a "spiritual" death as a consequence of sin - I think one is ignoring the obvious if one holds to that idea as exclusive. All sin/all die. Period. It is the ONLY absolute we cannot disprove. Now most people would rather say that one has nothing to do with the other - but in terms of a biblical perspective, it's as clear as it can get. Naturally, we qualify the severity of this matter against time - because we are bound by it. However - God is not. Once a soul sins - it will die. Time has nothing to do with this consequence in the matters of an eternal God, but to we as humans, it means everything. If a child overdoses on drugs it's a major tragedy, but when a drug abuser dies of complications from his habit in his 70's, we don't think much of it. We actually claim they were lucky to live that long. Yet - each has suffered a consequence of their action. As simplistic as I may be appearing to make this sound - it really is nothing more than that.

So - while you can measure punishment (often misrepresenting consequence in arguments relating to christianity) by means of force (a representation of quantity) - these are Human qualities! To God - all consequences of sin ARE EQUALLY SEVER! The white lie drove the nail through Christs right wrist, while the Holicost drove the nail through his left.

Can you see the point? It's not about force or severity, or about what is just or unjust. It's about the mere fact that we even bother to do it just ONCE. No matter how small it was - or got, it drove those spikes through a man who never got it wrong.

What is so hard to see about that? Nothing is more obvious to me in life - than this. I've never seen a circumstance where I could possibly imagine someone not holding a spike in one hand and a rock in another. It holds true for everyone I've ever known. Including the dude who looks back at me in the mirror.

Eljay it's kind of funny when you think about it.The people in here complaining and starting these bogus Christian topics are getting a Christian education and not even knowing it.The more they post the more Christianity is going to seep into their brain until their heads will be filled with so many bible verses they can remember them by heart.Although it irritates me when people spread lies about Christianity it also opens the door that one day they may read something that makes them a total believer.I believe many people in this very website are on the verge of converting but just need a little more evidence.

Thomas...people post in the religion forum to debate religion ....if they post in the hobbit forum would that mean they now believe in hobbits

Funny?

Interesting choice of descriptions. Judging by the arrogance in this response, I would say that you have done one of two things, either underestimate the understanding of others, or overestimate your own - possibly even both. Thank 'Gawd' all Christians are not like that.

well, like most things, we learn more when we are willing to expose ourselves a bit more. I had a sister in law who was atheist and a wonderful person. Taught me that believing or not believing is not what makes us decent,,, wish more non believers would understand that the same is true for intelligence

it's apparent that your wonderful atheist non-believing sister-in-law didn't teach you anything about the decency of impartiality pertaining to intelligence

assumptions are unbecoming,,,,why do you assume I do not understand about impartiality?

I have been on debate teams, I often look at both sides of a situation, there is nothing lacking in my ability to be impartial, nor my ability to be decisive, two things in a long list of those included in being logical or 'inteligent'

your statement that I quoted below renders everything you just stated about yourself as being a contradiction

Actually, I for one would imagine that discussions like this one are exactly why the moderators have us all "segregated" by religion...so that nobody is discriminated against and attacked for having a discussion. At the same time, we all have access to the general religion threads, so that we can interact. Unfortunately, too many people strive to look for the differences in religions, and arguing over semantics, instead of finding the common ground. Maybe when we all start to see that pure love for fellow mankind (I think the ancient Greeks called it AGAPE. Wiccans word it as "perfect love and perfect trust.) knows no religious boundaries or semantics, there won't be any need for cyber-segregation on the basis of religion. Until then, this is one place where a small amount of segregation is a blessing.

As far as Christianity being immoral, a lot of people have been helped in their personal lives by Christianity. I, myself, do not neccessarily agree with everything that modern Christianity teaches, but I won't presume to pass judgement about the morality of an entire religious system that has proven to help so many based on an interpretation of their own religious writings.

Very true. But many like to use it as a scapegoat to defend thier own life style. One would not need to defend something he knows is right when you call something or someone immorral.

I saw where whoever spoke about chr-stianity is a dictatorship and
its laws are out dated and we would progress if we would just leave those stories be.

I question what do you think this country is? Is it really free or does money d3etermine how free you are?

Is that right and just yet the same ones who has put in the colleges all the non sence that contradicts religion are the same ones who have been taking your rights away all the time.

They the lawyers judges police ect determine who is judged and who is not..Who gets a slap on the hand and who goes to jailo aand ruins thierlives and thier families.

You bark up the wrong tree. Here is an example of man..US taking lawsa and determining what they mean whether through courts or your local police dept.


Within the last week on the east coast some young men around 17 were throwing snow balls at a trucker and cars as they went by.

The trucker called it in and a undercover cop drives by and gets hit with several snowball.

Solution what would be reasonable for any police dept. to do?

What have we lost through nonsence is lost our common sence.

They are being charged under patriot act and terrorist act.

Throwing snowball to our govt. officials constantutes throwing an airborn missille as an act of terrorism..

Can you believe that. This is what happens when we take the precepts of the scriptures and say oh outdated we will make our own new ones.

What we are heading for is anarchy to where it will be everyone for themselves because we can not trust because the almighty dollar dictates what laws we have and don't/..Shalom..Miles

No argument from me Miles on the ignorance of the US government. However, I find no logical reason to believe that that is a direct result from not following scripture. We obviously cannot follow all of it, or we would be stoning people to death and gouging eyeballs out to this day for their thoughts alone.



Who would determine that?