This is the beauty and mystery of Faith. Ninety percent of what we read in school we believe on the FAITH that those who wrote it were honest and knew what they spoke of. The bible was written over MANY years , from BEFORE christ to after christ. I put faith in it.

But there is also the ugliness of faith. Faith/religion drives people to do things that are unethical (war, genocide, etc.) because they believe that God is on their side. The only tangible evidence of the existence of God is the Scriptures, but when the history of the scriptures is delved into, even these are corrupt. For instance, the Virgin Mary. This would be considered an important event in those times, but was not added to scripture until 342 A.D. The scriptures have been translated from dead languages, to other dead languages, to the interpretations of monarchs, to what we see today.Christianity borrows from other religions (i.e. the story of the egyptian god Horus in regards to Jesus), and from the true preachers of the christian Bible, it preaches to followers to yearn for the end of the world. Believing in God brings about a sense of elitism. "i believe in God, therefore, when i die/the rapture comes, I will ascend to heaven. You will not if you believe in another religion, so I will go to heaven and you all can go to hell." Christianity takes away from the beauty of humanity. Christianity teaches that there is no moral basis without the belief in God, but humans are creatures of instinct. There is one question that I ask anyone willing to answer. Name one ethical thing that a Christian can accomplish that an atheist cant. By scientific/logical definition, the validity of Christianity doesn't quite hold up. Accounts told by those that have not seen said events with their own eyes, but recounting what they heard about someone else, many years ago, or a decade or two prior to the writings, based on heresay, not first-hand accounts. The christian bible speaks of many immoral practices (genocide, genital mutilation, slavery, rape, murder, human sacrifice, war, vicarious redemption) which is all approved by God. Religion is a poison that corrupts whatever it touches, and until we dissolve ourselves of these Bronze-Age superstitions, as a species, we will never reach our full potential.

Any religion that teaches "if you make a different choice than I do in the belief department you deserve to suffer for an eternity" is not a religion of love and loving your neighbor as yourself...lol

I have to agree with the OP on some points.

i think Mr Hitchens was smoking weed

For once we actually get a logical post we can debate from someone who doesn't come out with the no holds barred "Chrisitanity sucks" attitude and starts the topic by showing respect towards the people he is asking the opinion from.This is the way topics should be posted not like the usual pointless garbage we have to deal with.

Whoooooooaaaaa take a deep breath and relax.You brought up many points that could take a great deal of time to get to but I can debunk all of it.

About the bible...
Books written by people thousands of years ago hold their justification on accuracy by how the copies of the bible compare to the original.If people are going to manipulate and change the bible to fit their own agenda the stories would be different then the orginal bible verses.Add to this many different people writing stories about the bible from different times and places and it would be very difficult to gather these same stories from different people and have them all come to the same conclusion which they did.In summary if you take the oldest Christian bibles ever found and compare them to the current day Christian bible they will have the same content which dates those events to the time they happened.

The original Christian bible was written about 30 years after Chirst's death.That means that there would be tens of thousands of people still alive to read the bible and question it's accuracy(including Kings and Priest).If there was stories that was not true the people would have revolted and protested as they were living witnesses.The bible would have been burned if it was anything other than the truth.



What about the witnesses?If you are going to call the bible false
and say nothing ever happened then you might as well just toss out all history dating prior to the invention of photography because it is all just witness testamony.


All these prophecies were written before Jesus was born and all came true.

I. General Prophecies Concerning the Coming of Jesus
Gen. 49:10; Mic. 5:2 - a kingdom and ruler of Israel shall come from Judah - Mattt. 1:1-2, Luke 3:23,33 - Jesus is from the line of Judah.

Deut. 18:18 - He will be raised up as a prophet - Matt. 21:11, Luke 7:16; John 6:14; 7:40 - Jesus is identified as this prophet.

Psalm 2:6 - He will be a King - Matt. 21:5; John 18:36-37 - Jesus is this King.

Psalm 2:7 - you are my Son, today I have begotten you - Matt. 3:17; Acts 13:33 - God the Father said this about Jesus the Son.

Psalm 69:4; Isaiah 49:7 - He will be hated without a cause - John 15:25 - Jesus was hated without a cause.

Psalm 69:9 - zeal for thy house has consumed me - John 2:16-17 - zeal consumed Jesus as He drove out the traders.

Psalm 78:2 - He will speak in parables - Matt. 13:34-35 - Jesus spoke in parables.

Psalm 110:1; Jer. 23:6 - He will be called Lord - Matt. 22:43-45; Luke 2:11; Heb. 1:10 - Jesus is called Lord by the Lord.

Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 8:14; 28:16 - He will be the stone rejected by the builders - Acts 4:10-11; Rom. 9:32-33; 1 Peter 2:7-8 - Jesus is the stone rejected by the builders.

Psalm 118:26; Hag.2:7-9; Mal. 3:1 - He will come to the Temple - Matt. 21:12; John 2:13-17 - Jesus so came to the Temple.

Psalm 132:11; Jer. 23:5 - He, the king, shall come from the House of David - Matt. 1:1; Luke 3:23,31 - Jesus is the son of David.

Isaiah 6:9-10 - they hear but do not understand and see but do not perceive - Matt. 13:14-15; John 12:38-41 - this is why Jesus used parables.

Isaiah 7:14 - He will be born of a young virgin woman - Matt. 1:18, 24-25; Luke 1:26-35 - Jesus was born of the young virgin Mary.

Isaiah 9:1 - His ministry will make Galilee glorious - Matt 4:12-17 - Jesus begins His ministry in Galilee.

Isaiah 9:6 - a woman shall bear a son called Emmanuel ("God is with us") - Luke 1:35 - Jesus is this one, the Son of God.

Isaiah 11:2 - the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him - Matt. 3:16-17 - the Spirit of God descended upon Jesus like a dove.

Isaiah 32:3-4; 35:5-6- His ministry will include miracles curing the blind, deaf, lame and dumb - Matt. 9:32-35 - Jesus so cured the blind, deaf, lame and dumb.

Isaiah 33:22 - He will be a judge - John 5:30 - Jesus is the judge who judges justly.

Isaiah 40:3; Mal. 3:1 - He will be preceded by a messenger - Mat. 3:1-3; 11:10; Luke 1:17; John 1:23 - Jesus was so preceded (by Saint John the Baptist).

Isaiah 53:3 - He will be rejected by His people - John 1:11; 7:5 - Jesus was rejected by His own people.

Isaiah 61:1-2 - the Spirit of the Lord is upon Him - Luke 4:21 - Jesus says that He has fulfilled this prophecy.

Zech. 9:9 - He will triumphantly enter Jerusalem on an *** - Matt. 21:5; Luke 19:35-38; John 12:14-17 - Jesus so entered Jerusalem.

Mic. 5:2 - Israel's ruler shall come from Bethlehem - Matt. 2:1,4-8; Luke 2:4-7 - Jesus was born in Bethlehem.


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II. Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus in His Passion, Death, Resurrection and Ascension
Psalm 16:10; 30:3 - He will not be spared from death and yet remain incorrupt - Acts 2:31; 13:33,35 - Jesus conquered death and remained incorrupt.

Psalm 22:1 - My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me? - Matt. 27:46; Mark 15:34 - Jesus utters this rabbinical formula from the cross declaring that He is the Messiah.

Psalm 22:7 - the people will wag their heads at Him - Matt. 27:39; Mark 15:29 - the people wagged their heads at Jesus on the cross.

Psalm 22:7 - He will be mocked - Matt. 27:31; Mark 15:20; Luke 22:63; 23:36 - Jesus was mocked.

Psalm 22:16; Isa. 53:12 - He will be numbered with the transgressors - Matt. 27:38; Mark 15:27; Luke 23:32; John 19:18 - Jesus was numbered with the transgressors by being crucified between two thieves.

Psalm 22:16; Zech 12:10 - His hands and feet will be pierced and they will weep for the first-born - John 19:23,34,37 - Jesus' hands and feet were pierced and his followers wept for Him, the true first-born Son of Israel.

Psalm 22:17 - they will stare and gloat over Him - Matt. 27:36; Luke 23:35 - the people stood by and stared at Jesus on the cross.

Psalm 22:18 - they will divide His garments among them - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:23 - they divided Jesus' garments among them.

Psalm 22:18 - they will cast lots for His garments - Matt. 27:35; Mark 15:24; Luke 23:34; John 19:24 - they cast lots for Jesus' garments.

Psalm 30:3; 41:10, 118:17; Hos 6:2 - He will be raised to life on the third day - Acts 13:33, Matt. 28:6; Mark 16:6; Luke 24:34,46 - Jesus was raised to life on the third day.

Psalm 34:20 - He will not have broken bones - John 19:33,36 - none of Jesus' bones were broken.

Psalm 41:9; 55:12-14 - He will be betrayed by a friend - Matt. 10:4; 26:20-25; Mark 14:18-21; John 13:18 - Jesus was betrayed by a friend.

Psalm 68:18 - He will ascend into heaven - Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:9 - Jesus ascended into heaven.

Psalm 68:20 - He will escape the powers of death - Acts 2:31; 13:33; Matt 28:6; Mark 16:6, Luke 24:46; John 20:9-10 - Jesus escaped the powers of death through his resurrection.

Psalm 69:21 - they will give Him vinegar to drink - Matt. 27:34,48; Mark 15:23,36; Luke 23:36; John 19:29 - they gave Jesus vinegar to drink.

Psalm 110:1 - He will sit at the right hand of God - Heb. 1:3; Acts 2:34-35 - Jesus sits at the right hand of God.

Isaiah 50:6 - He will be spat upon - Matt. 26:67; Mark 15:19 - Jesus was spat upon.

Isaiah 50:6; Mic. 5:1 - the ruler of Israel's cheek will be struck - Matt. 26:67; Luke 22:63; John 18:22 - Jesus was so struck and beaten.

Isaiah 53:5; Zech. 13:6 - He was wounded, bruised and scourged for us - Matt. 27:26; Mark 15:15; John 19:1 - Jesus was wounded, bruised and scourged for us.

Isaiah 53:7 - He will remain silent before His accusers - Matt. 27:12,14; Mark 14:61;15:5; Luke 23:9; John 19:9 - Jesus remained silent before His accusers.

Isaiah 53:8-10; Dan. 9:26 - the anointed one shall be cut off and die - Luke 23:46; 24:7; John 19:30 - Jesus the Messiah died.

Isaiah 53:9 - He will be buried in a rich man's tomb - Matt. 27:57-60; Mark 15:42-46; Luke 23:50-53; John 19:38-42 - Jesus was buried in a rich man's tomb (the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea).

Isaiah 53:12 - He will make intercession for the transgressors - Luke 23:34,43 - Jesus made intercession for the transgressors on the cross.

Amos 8:9 - God will darken the earth at noon - Matt. 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44-45 - there was darkness at noon at Jesus' crucifixion and death.

Jonah 1:17 - three nights and days in the belly of the whale foreshadows Jesus' death and rising on the third day.

Mic. 1:8 - He will lament and wail, and will go stripped and naked - John 19:23-24 - Jesus lamented and was stripped and naked.

Zech. 11:12-13 - He will be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver - Matt. 26:15 - Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.

Zech. 11:13 - the pieces of silver are cast into God's house - Matt. 27:5 - Judas threw the pieces of silver into the Temple.

Zech. 12:10 - His side will be pierced - John 19:34, 37 - Jesus' side was pierced.

Zech. 13:7 - He will be forsaken by His disciples who will scatter - Matt. 26:31, Mark. 14:50 - Jesus' disciples forsook Him and scattered.

Thomas wrote:



WHAT ORIGINAL?



Again, what original?



Ever heard of the Council of Nicea?



Being an accurate reproduction does not make that which is being reproduced accurate in all apects of it's content.



The original? Again, where are you getting this idea that there was an original Christian bible? No one would revolt if their lives depended upon allowing it to happen. Do you really believe that everyone who was alive at the time that all of the different stories were written were still alive at the time that this so-called original Christian bible was first written and that they actually read it in order to verify it's authenticity?

Was Moses there too? Abraham? Solomon?





If the Bible contains false beliefs, that does not mean that all writings do as well. I think that we have quite different understandings of what constitutes debunking. Giving a bunch of scripture from the Old and New testaments which correlate with one another does not make what is being correlated true. It does however provide proof that some things in the Old Testament correlate to some things in the New.

One cannot refute a statement that religion maybe harmful with religious text...lol

Not a good avenue to help the point.

Considering that the supposed scrolls that were used for the stories in the bible were altered when they were condensed into one book, there can be no "predictions" in the book for following chapters.

Yes, Thank You

All of the stories in the Bible are just that, stories. The Bible was writen by man (who is not perfect). These were stories that were passed down by generation to generation and you know what happens when stories are told over a period of time, they change.
I find it hard to put any credit to any of the stories. How do we know that Abraham didn't have some kind of mental issues, he was 75 years old when he first "heard" God speak to him.

Okay, well, the topic is if Chrisianity is immoral. As I have stated, many of the funamentals of Christianity are immoral, and at times, can get rather perverse. Since the topic kind of veered into the validity of the religion in itself as a whole, allow me to redirect to the main point. Is Vicarious Redemption immoral? My point is that vicarious redemption robs people of personal responsibility. When remorse is felt, then all that is needed is forgiveness of God. This robs any incentive of making amends to anybody affected negatively. For Jesus to say that even if the hurt doesnt forgive, that he does, and that makes everything fine, this is rather perverse in its own rights.

Also, Christianity teaches us to love each and every person as we would love ourselves, which is impossible. This in itself is an impossibility to love every person in the world as we would love ourselves, so we are always guilty of this crime.

Third, doctrines of Christianity teach us that we from the moment we are born into this world, we are guilty of crimes because we are born with Original Sin. Even from the moment of birth, we are guilty in the eyes of God. To be considered a criminal upon the moment of entering this world is a deranged view.

And, the believer-God relationship is a relationship based on the sadomasochistic premise. We are to be fearful of God yet strive every moment for all our lives to seek his love. To be fearful and loving is simply sadomasochistic.

Finally, Christianity is a totalitarian religion. There is no chance for any change, and the ruler is eternal. We are even convicted of thought-crimes under the religion. To simply have an urge is a crime that we are found guilty of. There is no need to commit the crime, but to simply have the thought, is something that will condemn an individual.

-On a side note, I would like to highly recommend the documentary of Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion. It is an excellent study by a former professor of biological theory at Oxford University.

I can tell that neither you or the author of this book have the slightest understand of what Christianity is.Why must it always be negative,negative,negative.If you or the author of that book(which sounds like nothing but Atheist propaganda) would actually take some time to read the bible and what it commands us to do you would learn that it preaches peace,love,and forgiveness.Are you actually going to argue that if people are naturally bad and sinful with relgion then they are going to be better people with out it?

Your theory that Christians should do what ever they want with out remose becasue Jesus will forgive them is totally backwards.Any practicing Christian will feel not only a bad guilt trip but much remorse for actions and thoughts against God.Many Christians feel terribly bad their whole lives for their sins against God even after they pray for forgiveness.A person who is a Christian and thinks he can just go through life being a bad person and will just go to church before he dies and asks for forgivness is in for a rude awakening.


Your taking love each other as your love youselves way too literally.Jesus was not saying you are supposed to fall in love with every person on earth.It was a general statment more along the lines of "treat people the way you would want to be treated".As a Christian when I go to church I show love to my fellow Chrisitians in hugs,hand shakes,and support.Why you call showing brotherly love a crime is beyond me.

A baby born into the world is not a sinner.The bible does not say a baby is a sinner.It simply says a baby is born with sin because it is born to sinner and in a sinful world which is totally correct.Is this baby guilty of any crimes?No.The bible says a baby does not know the difference between good or evil and will not be judged because of it.

The fear of God is a wonderfull thing.I know you don't understand it and probably many people reading this don't either.The fear of God is not a threat.It is a reminder that everyday we are alive it is because God allows it.God can end my life at any minute.For that reason I fear him as I don't want to upset him in any way.But I love him for letting me live another day.Any good Christian will fear the lord as respect and gratitude towards him.

Do Christians worry about crimes and their punishment if they are not commiting them?I can only speak for myself but I do not commit crime,steal,or do anything else bad.I rarely cuss,I don't sleep around,I follow the commandments it's not that hard to do.

I would also like to recommend a book.The Holy bible.All time bestseller with billions of copies sold.Free to you at any church.

The oldest Christian bible is around 1600 years old.Is that the first bible ever written?No.There are parts and pieces from other bibles dating even earlier.Books were not even invented back then so you will never find a book.They were scribed on copper plates,scrolls,etc.Does all that matter?No.What we are trying to get at is how accurate the oldest living pieces of the bible are compared to the modern version of today's bible.Have a perfect match of today's bible with the oldest living bible holds a lot of credibility because it shows that the stories did happen as far back as they did and they were not made up as they years went passed along by other people.In contrast it would be like writing a book on how the world works today and in 2,000 years finding the same book and finding the same information on the present day book.If you were a historian doing research on past history your facts would hold much more credibility if the book you had was just as accurate now as it was back then.


The fact that many people wrote the bible at different times just gives it that much more credibility. Most people when they write a book sit down at a table all together and get their stories and facts straight.Having 20 plus different people writing stories on the same person with out communication and having all those stories line up like a straight edge is phenomenal. Take the fact that the bible was written some 30 plus years after Jesus died is also amazing since most people would have a hard time remembering details.


Of course there was people alive when the original bible was written that was also alive when Jesus was living.Just take any age and add 30 years and that's how old they would have been.Jesus appeared to millions and millions of people.People would have died for Jesus and done anything he asked them to.You think if someone writes a book on Jesus they are just going to accept it as anything but what really happend?Even if there wasn't anyone but those men who wrote the bible do you really think they would write anything in there that wasn't the truth?


The bible does not contain false beliefs.How do you explain all the things written in the old testament that were fulfilled by Jesus before he was ever born?Don't you realize that there was already a Holy bible written long before Jesus was born?Even the Muslim bible talks about Jesus.Do you know what the odds are that all those things would have been just by chance?

Think about this.... the statistical probability of predicting one event is one chance in two. Either the event will happen or it will not. When you add one more prediction, the person would have a one in four chance of being right on both predictions. The statistical odds against someone predicting 35 events and being 100% correct on all 35 is 1 to 34,359,738,368. That is a 36 billion, 359 million, 738 thousand, 368 to 1 against some one making 35 predictions and all of them coming true. Notice what I am saying here, not 35 out of hundreds but 35 out of 35! That is nothing short of a miracle.

I think it is immoral to wrongly teach someone that they can prove the validity of a book by using the book itself.

Immoraly wrong How many millions of non Christian people do you think read the bible because they had questions that wanted to be answered?Do you realize how much substance the bible holds in this world?Who is saying that anyone has to believe it?How is the bible any more immoraly wrong than reading any other book on this planet?

The big problem you and a lot of Atheist have is you think that Christians were somehow strapped to a chair and forced to read the bible against their will.People love to talk about the bible.I meet people all the time both Christians and non Christians that ask me about what the bible says about this and that.People want answers.99% of the Christians out there are Christians because they want to be.Nobody is forcing them to do anything.

There's the evidence of the effects of it.



I have no idea what you think I wrote.

You have no idea is exactly right!One day you will get it.

I certainly recognize ungrounded personal judgment.

Leading by example, I see.

How do we validate that columbus discovered america, how do we validate history books,,, the book, the bible, has books that were written and compiled just as the stories of history were previously written and then compiled. Without actually being there, how is anything validated that is in print,, except with other print...?