Tossing out the whole christian 'fundamentalist' thing for sure!!!

If religious organizations, from the smallest to the largest, could demonstrate integrity, and become responsible for the harm they promote, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Furthermore, it occurs to me msharmony, that you might have a hard time reconciling yourself with the manner, the form, through which Darrel Ray presents his case: sort of a detox program for the religious.

Well, here is a suggestion that might help you move beyond that 'wall' and get the gist of Ray's worthwhile breakthrough.

Google up Dr. Frank Shaeffer, author of 'Crazy for God', and read up on some of his views.

Unlike Ray, Shaeffer is a devout practicing christian. And that doesn't stop him from denouncing the out of control christian evangelical and fundamentalist movement that is driving America straight into a concrete wall.

Here is what Shaeffer had to say about Ray's 'The God Virus':

“I am a religious person, a churchgoer. Nevertheless, this one-of-a-kind book [The God Virus] is a vital reminder of the fact that we must think objectively at what religion does to us.”

Throwing out the baby with bathwater?!?!? NO!

But getting rid of ALL the bad water!!! Absolutely!!!

Eljay, your personal views of what constitutes a (deserving) christian, even when you use your personal 'expert' interpretive skills of the bible as some sort of subjective authority for your position, doesn't change the fact that it is your personal opinion and interpretation. Another version of the 'god on my side' perverse way of ONE deciding what is right and wrong for ALL.

It is keeping a certain group locked into the old 'By choice or by birth' endless battle.
Or the infamous 'MY bible scriptures interpretation is right and yours is wrong' childish battle!!! Leading to insane notion that Catholics are not christians in some bible 'experts' eyes.

At that rate, the CHOSEN will be NONE!!! ... for the ONE whom might end up winning the 'I'M RIGHT, THEY'RE WRONG' ego contest, will be flushed for having judged all others!!!

Hitler was a catholic. Hitler was a christian. Hitler became radical in his christian views, then fundamentalist in his christian views, and finally, outright insane in his christian views!!! Supported throughout, by heavyweights of the christian church of the time.

And this bring US straight back to the heart of the topic.

What is your opinion 'the god virus'?

Since you and I agree on religious fundamentalism, and the general destruction it has on society at large, and surely you wouldn't be one to conveniently exclude christianity has having its own fringe of religious fundamentalists, it would be pertinent, given the topic of this thread, to hear your views on Dr. Darrel Ray's book.

I remain ignorant as to whether "Hitler was a Christian" during his reign. To me, to answer that question I would need access to an honest expression of his personal thoughts on such topics as the Bible, the Christian 'God', Jesus, and the idea of 'Jesus as Savior'.

If even a few of the claims being made about him here are true, then its obvious that his worldview was influenced by Christianity, and that he used Christianity.



While I don't completely agree with Voileazur's statements - I agree with the sentiment behind his response to this statement. Portions of modern Christian religion encourages hostility towards Muslims and towards gays, which some would say is an 'un-Christian' attitude. I think V. is making a valid point. Just because the 'loving Christians' don't agree with such hostility, doesn't make that hostility any less a product of the modern Christian religion.

Further, since when do Christian judge whether a person is a Christian based on their actions? I thought that acceptance of Jesus as your Savior was the key criteria?

Making this determination based on people actions seems a bit convenient to me. Hypothetically, if some portions of Christian belief encourage such 'un-Christian' behavior - then anybody who is making this designation based on behavior would never see and acknowledge the connection - when confronted with the evidence of such a connection, they would always have the option of washing their hands of the consequences of the beliefs by disowning the person on the basis of their behavior.

To judge an entire group based on the actions of one or a few is not fair to the rest of that group.

Shall we judge all of the people who went to the same school as Hitler? Or judge all from the same town? How about judging all of Germany?

Isn't it a bit extreme to keep pressing the issue against Christians?

The whole Hitler was a Christian myth has already been discussed in this forum and debunked in every way.If Hitler belonged to any religion it would have been the Muslim religion since Hitler was obsessed with the total destruction of Jews.He banned and burned many books,burned Christian churhes to the ground,invaded other countries,killed millions of people,and wanted one world domination.This type of leadership and actions has nothing in common with Christianity and everything to do with Islam.

As far as hostility towards gays and Muslims.I can't remember a single news story,article,or radio report of a group of Christians using violence towards gays or Muslims in the 35 years I have been alive.We don't like gays or Muslims because of their actions and the way they are trying to corrupt and destory our religion.The liberal idea of Christians accepting everyone as they are and ignoring their actions is total nonsese.If Christians are just going to accept everyone as they are and turn a blind eye to their actions there is no point being a Christian as this is nothing more than Atheism.When you become a Christian it is your duty to stand up for immoral actions and to speak out against them.This also includes other lost and hopeless Christians who are doing everything the bible tells them not to do and saying they can do anything they like because God loves them regardless.

Read your bible.God and Jesus spent probably 75% of the bible talks aboutwhat kind of people to stay away from.They told us who is evil,what is evil,and where evil comes from.This includes the homosexual lifestyle,other false religions and Gods,people who practice witchcraft,etc.People who claim they are Christians and are anything but,are worse in Gods eyes then people who don't believe in God at all.

Are we 'judging a group' or exploring possible cause and effect between beliefs and actions?

If, hypothetically, our goal were to 'prevent future Hitlers', then taking a look at other influences would be fair game, for sure. In fact, the culture of germany at that time, the experiences of germans, the role of nationalistic pride - these things and many others have been examined and critiqued and applied to later situations as a means of learning from our mistakes.

His school, his community, his family - I think everything is fair game to look at for influencing/contributing factors. But we are already a bit off-topic, and I think exploring those questions would be seriously off topic.

Thomas, thank you so much for posting!

I have a great deal to say in response, but I'm going to leave much of it unsaid, and see what your Christian brethren may have to say.



I suppose it is by the same unassailable logic that the "Hitler was a Christian" idea has been 'debunked'.




Well said.



Again, well said. Thank you.



You are obviously a product of your environment.





Good to see you know your duty. But why stop at speaking? Isn't that cowardly? Why not STEP UP AND TAKE ACTION, MY BROTHERS!!!




I'm glad you have a handbook to make it clear. This must make it much easier for those who seek to manipulate people based on hate - the enemy is clearly identified.



I see. At this point, I think the real question is WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?!!

Thomas said:

Well Massage this is a debate forum and if you are too busy to have a debate then I guess there is no sense responding if all we are going to read is "I can say something but I wont".Your responses are just personal blah blah's and have a tone of not debating but more like trying to get me upset or trying to bait me into spending hours of having pointless conversation about nothing.

But since you brought it up I do take action.I have called Senators,I vote on issues such as gay marriage,I protest,I come to these and other forums and blogs and bicker and argue with people who have nothing better to do then to start posts calling Christians a bunch of cowards.I give my money and time to causes that support the Christian movement.I do research and boycott business that have a reputation of supporting people who I think are against Christianity.

I hope next time you respond you have something that at least is worth debating.

Thomas, I most definitely appreciate the (relative) courtesy in your reply. Since you thought I was baiting you and (presumably) insulting you, I think you were fairly restrained and polite in your response. Thank you. It was not my intention to bait you, nor to insult you. You are correct that I had no interest in debating with you in response to your post - I was only using your post to illustrate points for others. There are larger ideas at work here.



Just to be clear, I was not trying to get you upset, and I was not trying to bait you.



So these beliefs you have posted have inspired you to action...actions you would otherwise not take. There are some people out there who call themselves Christians, and whose personally morality is different that yours, who would say that you are still not doing enough. The key here is that you are motivated by your beliefs, and you've stated some of your beliefs about homosexuals and Muslims. Again, I'm not arguing with you, but pointing this out for others.

For the record, I do not consider Christians to be cowards.




Yes, some other time, when I'm not using your words to illustrate other points, I look forward to engaging with you more directly. Oh, crap, you can't hear my tone, and that sounds like a challenge... I mean that in a sincere and non-confrontational way.

I know I don't post in here very much any more, but I do watch. I have something to ponder. All of these debates about religion doing this and that (in all religions btw...there are extremists everywhere) did any one think that maybe people use religion as an excuse for there actions? I mean, couldn't the same argument be made that men are the cause? aren't men the ones that start these things?

Now I'm not male bashing because I don't think that is a valid theory either, but couldn't it be equally as valid as religion?

just a thought hehehe

The key here is to ask whether a co-incident factor is contributing, or is truly just ... coincidence. Some people even associate his mustache with evil!!

I think in both cases (men causing problems, religion causing problems) there is something worth looking at.

I think that was more of my point. Can't pin point and blame just one thing...ya know? I know there are extremists in all things, religion, politics, employment, etc. Who knows what triggers that in people.

I still like my theory better. It's the men's fault and time for the women to take over

But it seems like you got my point right? It was just something I've been thinking about for a while and forgot to post

come to think about it...Stalin had a mustache...so did several others

I don't think anyone is trying to blame only one thing - but only one part of the blame is the focus of this thread. Though there will always be multiple factors, some factors may be more important than others.

Consider a person who (a) was abused as a child, (b) was taught by his community/peers that women have no value, (c) is alcoholic, (d) is a hunter proficient with the tools of hunting, and (e) likes steamed carrots.

One day, in a drunken rage, he murders his wife with his hunting tools. Which of the factors matter? I would focus on a-c, consider (d) as relevant but not key, and discount (e). Only (e) can be completely discounted. If any of those factors a-d had been different, this might not have happened.

Gun control advocates are going to put special attention on (d). Feminists will put special attention on (b).

People who 'think he's a good guy' might put special attention on (c), and say 'it was the demon of alcohol that did this!'.

From where I'm sitting, some religion groups are doing something like the (b) factor, above.

They are teaching people that its okay to hate certain groups, and then pretend its not their fault when there is violence done against that group. And the real issues here are far more subtle - group identity, attitudes of self righteousness, absolute authority... its strikes me as a recipe for disaster.



It may be that religions, as they are structured, help to trigger this in people. A lot of religious people don't even want to look at this question.



I know you are joking, but sadly, for the most part, the only women who achieve political power are the ones who embrace the values (and lack thereof) of the existing system.



I think so.

Are any Christians going to respond to Thomas' 7:13pm post?

Or better - anybody who doesn't think that religion can help to create the Hitlers of the world?

as far as Hilter goes....yes he could have delusional extremist religious ideas. I never met him and can only go by all that I have studied. Hilter was brought up Catholic....true. He, also, was involved in the occult and had Atheist higher ups. So who knows what triggered him or got him going. Hilter's religion was Germany and the Aryan race. Whatever he started out with or had around him...he made Germany and the Aryan race his religion (so to speak)

Maybe the same thing triggered Stalin (who became an Atheist) or the pagan Roman emperors, such as Nero and Caligula.

Do some people take religion to an extreme....yes. I don't think religion (all religions including Atheism) is responsible. I think some use religion to excuse their behavior

JMO

Are you seriously going to believe that nonsense that Hitler was a Catholic?You really think Hitler is going to murder millions of Gods chosen people and then somehow go to heaven and God is going to forgive him for that?Hitler was a Anti Christ.He can call himself what ever he wants but his actions are where the truth lies.He didn't do a single thing that would be considered holy,good,or Christ like.He did all the evil the bible spoke out against.He did all the sins the bible spoke out against.

Hitlers actions and words fit perfectly.As shown below.Only a total fool would deny he was not a Anti-Christ


http://www.trueorigin.org/hitler01.asp


In Hitler’s words “the heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity” (Hitler, 1953, p. 6). The Jesuits were “swine,” and all of Christianity was “Jewish Christianity” which was comparable with “Jewish Bolshevism.” Hitler concluded that both were evil and both had to be destroyed (Kershaw, 2000, pp. 330, 488). His reasoning was based on his belief that Christianity was an “illegitimate” Jewish child and, as a Jewish child, was swine like its parent that must be eradicated. Hitler considered Christianity the “invention of the Jew Saul” (Azar, 1990, p. 154).


A major reason Hitler opposed Christianity was because Hitler saw Christianity and Science as diametrically opposed to each other (Azar, 1990, p. 154). He concluded science would win, and the Christian church would eventually in due time be destroyed. Hitler even believed science was the creation of the German race. Hitler was trying to use science — especially Darwinism — to create a utopia on Earth, and he made it absolutely clear that there would be “no place in this utopia for the Christian Churches” in his plans for the future of Germany. He realized that this was a long term goal and “was prepared to put off long-term ideological goals in favor of short-term advantage” (Kershaw, 2000, p. 238). Hitler had to fight one battle at a time — and elected to take on the fight with the churches in due time. The Christian church would be destroyed later, and for now it was needed. Only after the war would Germany be able to fully implement the “final solution” to the “Christian problem” (Kershaw, 2000, p. 516). In the meantime, “calm should be restored ... in relations with the Churches” (Kershaw, 2000, p. 39).


Dachau concentration camp held the largest number of Catholic priests — over 2,400 — in the Nazi camp system. They came from about 24 nations, and included parish priests and prelates, monks and friars, teachers and missionaries. Over one third of the priests in Dachau alone were killed (Lenz, 2004). One Dachau survivor, Fr. Johannes Lenz, wrote an account of the Catholic holocaust. He claimed that the Catholic Church was the only steadfast fighter against the Nazis. Lenz tells the agony and martyrdom of the physical and mental tortures Dachau inmates experienced. Men and women were murdered by the thousands in Dachau, and those who survived were considered “missionaries in Hell.” The fact is, official Nazi works taught both anti-Semitic and anti-Christian doctrines:

Thomas, He was brought up Catholic as a child. That much is true. What he turned into as an adult and why he did what he did....who really knows?

It has,was,and always will be Christian nations with Christian people,and Christian leaders that will bring peace,end Wars and suffering.It will always be countries that are not Christian that will start wars,invade countries,and bring misery.

'Recovering from extreme religiosity', is the topic of this thread, and there couldn't have been a better demonstration of 'The God Virus' than the comments made here by 'thomas'.

With all due respect to you personally 'thomas', and I know you certainly wouldn't be one to agree with Dr. Darrell Ray's perspective, almost every line you wrote above could have been taken out of 'The God Virus', as salient examples of evertyhing gone wrong with the christian fundamentalist movement.

I am not suggesting it is the case for you 'thomas', but in this statement alone:

'... This includes the homosexual lifestyle,other false religions and Gods,people who practice witchcraft,etc.People who claim they are Christians and are anything but,are worse in Gods eyes then people who don't believe in God at all...'

... one could easily conclude that once all the exclusions are made, one would be left with just that: a religion of 'one'!

The hatred must stop 'thomas'. You wrote earlier :

'... We don't like gays or Muslims because of their actions and the way they are trying to corrupt and destory our religion. ...'

Given this personal perception you have of gays and Muslims, how far are you prepared to go to defend YOUR RELIGION 'thomas'. If not you personally, whom among your 'friends' will stop the so-called 'corruptors' and 'destroyers' of YOUR PERSONAL GOD GIVEN RELIGION!!!

That is a statement which is difficult to address 'thomas', other than to say that it is very close to what Hitler would have been overheard saying about the jewish people: '... corrupting and destroying his 'pure god given arian race' and way of life...'.

That is what this thread is addressing through 'The God Virus' 'thomas'.

To what extent christian fundamentalists are going to be willing to go to 'defend' their righteous god, and personal beliefs, against the perceived threats of illusionary 'corruptors' and 'destroyers', whose only crime is to 'THINK' differently then the righteous christian fundamentalists and their personal interpretation of a book!!!

While I don't doubt that one must surely get a powerful sense of mission and purpose out of this role of soldier and defender of christ himself, but it is a delusion at best, a losing battle at worst, along with a possible case of multiple stomach ulcers from all the bad energy.

Cervantes, in his epic 'Don Quichotte de la Mancha', warned us all very clearly about the dangers of delusion.

In short, Don Quichotte is obsessed over books dealing with 'Chevalery'. The books so troubled his mind that he started to believe that he was a 'chevalier' himself, whose purpose and mission was to save and protect the oppressed throughout Spain. It could be said that his 'chevalrie' books were like his bible, and that his life was lived straight out of his books.

Later, near the end of his life, Don Quichotte gives up on reading 'chevalerie' books. He soon after regained his ability to think clearly and pragmatically, showing the greatest of wisdom, to the admiration of people surrounding him in his final years.

Recovering from 'The God Virus'??? Cervantes wrote all about it, it would seem, more than 400 years ago. We have yet to learn the lesson!