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| Topic: Are we pushing too hard.... | |
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Problems: 5. People are signing up to the Army for all the wrong reasons. Unemployment, quick cash, college tuition. They forget that they can be deployed and need to kill people or be killed. And medical benefits. 
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Problems: 5. People are signing up to the Army for all the wrong reasons. Unemployment, quick cash, college tuition. They forget that they can be deployed and need to kill people or be killed. And medical benefits.
yeah you know those army guys just fight for their country for money anways.....blah blah blah....offensive! how about saying thank you? how is not okay to say this guy was a muslim but it is okay to say soldiers are only in it for the money? I will tell you why, because people are intellectually dishonest thats why! No critical thinking! facts dont matter, tow the party line, repeat what they say blah blah blah! American till I die! |
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You know what i hate! when liberals act like american soldiers agree with them. lol...... far from it! most soldiers are not even in agreement with republicans because they are far too liberal! The core of our fighting force hate politics and wish that we could take the gloves off! They want to fight to win and come home alive! They love the man next to them not some sleazy politician that lies and lies! They want to see america pull out the mighty american air power and naval power and just slaughter them! So please stop speaking of us as if we are children that need your support! We volunteer to fight for our country, so get out the way and let the real american men get the job done!
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I spent 2 years in the army in country, combat is HELL!!! The Majpr that snapped just had too much and told his superiors so, NO ONE can prepare U for the horrors of war, It NEVER goes away!! One...he would have been deployed to the Green Zone and he would have never seen ( unless the Iraqis decided to run a military campaign against the U.S. ) any combat or heard any shots fired. Two...he " had too much "??? He never even WENT into combat. Anyone trying to claim that he had PTSD is utterly lost. therapists often suffer from PTSD. it's actually often a requirement that they also receive counseling. But PTSD from WHAT?? He was never in combat. He had never even left the U.S. Granted, he heard some of the stories of guys coming back but, again, he was not headed over to Iraq to be placed into a combat zone. |
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Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a type of anxiety disorder that's triggered by a traumatic event. You can develop post-traumatic stress disorder when you experience or witness an event that causes intense fear, helplessness or horror.
,,this is from the mayo clinic's definition. I dont think combat is a requirement just a 'traumatic' event (whatever that might be). It gets so confusing because the medical industry is very vague on emotional and mental illnesses and there are very rarely an CONCRETE indicators to any diagnosis. |
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Edited by
CatheyC
on
Sat 11/07/09 09:24 AM
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You know some keep saying Muslim, what if, just for the sake of argument, it was a Baptist, Methodist or better yet a Pagan who had cracked under the stress? Would we still be so quick to decide it was religious in nature? For the most part I believe not. I believe American Muslims are honest, loving, careing and proud to be an American. I feel certain that the majority of Muslims overseas are good people. You keep on with the wacko muslim, but you don't say anything bout the man in Florida! Why? Both are American. This is America were people have came for Centuries to escape Religious pursecution. I think that we have forgotten our roots and the reasons our Ancestors came here. We are after all suppose to be the land of the FREE, with rights that every man, woman and child should and can be able to worship the God they want and in the way they want. We are and always will be a melting pot, a mixture of races, beliefs and ideas. Thats who and what we are. Terrorists are just that terrorists. They have no regard for life in any form, so there is in my mind a world of difference. Maybe those who are so focused on blaming the Muslims for this act, needs counselling to learn that revenge and hostility begat only more revenge and hositility and in the end makes us no better than the terrorist themselves. Which is what they want, to have us fighting amongst each other, loosing focus and destroying ourselves! No religion that I know preaches violence or the taking of another life, but War produces horrible acts that human nature sometimes can not process and deal with. So PLEASE lets focus on our loss, our beautiful young men and women are gone. Let us praise their lives instead of honoring the horrible deed that has been done!
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You know some keep saying Muslim, what if, just for the sake of argument, it was a Baptist, Methodist or better yet a Pagan who had cracked under the stress? Would we still be so quick to decide it was religious in nature? For the most part I believe not. I believe American Muslims are honest, loving, careing and proud to be an American. I feel certain that the majority of Muslims overseas are good people. You keep on with the wacko muslim, but you don't say anything bout the man in Florida! Why? Both are American. This is America were people have came for Centuries to escape Religious pursecution. I think that we have forgotten our roots and the reasons our Ancestors came here. We are after all suppose to be the land of the FREE, with rights that every man, woman and child should and can be able to worship the God they want and in the way they want. We are and always will be a melting pot, a mixture of races, beliefs and ideas. Thats who and what we are. Terrorists are just that terrorists. They have no regard for life in any form, so there is in my mind a world of difference. Maybe those who are so focused on blaming the Muslims for this act, needs counselling to learn that revenge and hostility begat only more revenge and hositility and in the end makes us no better than the terrorist themselves. Which is what they want, to have us fighting amongst each other, loosing focus and destroying ourselves! No religion that I know preaches violence or the taking of another life, but War produces horrible acts that human nature sometimes can not process and deal with. So PLEASE lets focus on our loss, our beautiful young men and women are gone. Let us praise their lives instead of honoring the horrible deed that has been done! ....nicely put,,thank you |
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Edited by
ronny4dating
on
Sat 11/07/09 09:54 AM
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You know some keep saying Muslim, what if, just for the sake of argument, it was a Baptist, Methodist or better yet a Pagan who had cracked under the stress? ...Yes if it happend on a continual basis! Would we still be so quick to decide it was religious in nature? ....Yes if that where the facts and it was wide spread throughout the world For the most part I believe not. .....i disagree I believe American Muslims are honest, loving, careing and proud to be an American. ....no question the large majority are! I feel certain that the majority of Muslims overseas are good people. .....well i dont know i seen them dancing in the streets on 9/11 You keep on with the wacko muslim, but you don't say anything bout the man in Florida! Why? Both are American. ......he is a whacko too but people arent defending him so i dont comment. This is America were people have came for Centuries to escape Religious pursecution. ......yeah im christian is that okay and by the way im white too is that okay? i'm not racist either, do you beleive me? I think that we have forgotten our roots and the reasons our Ancestors came here. We are after all suppose to be the land of the FREE, with rights that every man, woman and child should and can be able to worship the God they want and in the way they want. ......as long as your not killing people indiscrimanately fine! We are and always will be a melting pot, a mixture of races, beliefs and ideas. Thats who and what we are. ......true Terrorists are just that terrorists. .......nope this is a muslim problem by in large! a scewed ideaology that needs to be taken care of! They have no regard for life in any form, so there is in my mind a world of difference. Maybe those who are so focused on blaming the Muslims for this act, needs counselling to learn that revenge and hostility begat only more revenge and hositility and in the end makes us no better than the terrorist themselves. .......no one is blaming muslims only that it is a muslim issue and they need to clean up their own backyard! Which is what they want, to have us fighting amongst each other, loosing focus and destroying ourselves! ........thats why we need real truth and dialogue No religion that I know preaches violence or the taking of another life, ..........sorry just not true! sure not any of the mainstream but there are sects and large ones in the muslim culture! but War produces horrible acts that human nature sometimes can not process and deal with. So PLEASE lets focus on our loss, our beautiful young men and women are gone. Let us praise their lives instead of honoring the horrible deed that has been done! ..........no lets take care of the problem and win the war honor those dead by telling the truth and combating the problem! Lets not stick our heads in the sand lets fight and win! |
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Edited by
ronny4dating
on
Sat 11/07/09 10:09 AM
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You know some keep saying Muslim, what if, just for the sake of argument, it was a Baptist, Methodist or better yet a Pagan who had cracked under the stress? Would we still be so quick to decide it was religious in nature? For the most part I believe not. I believe American Muslims are honest, loving, careing and proud to be an American. I feel certain that the majority of Muslims overseas are good people. You keep on with the wacko muslim, but you don't say anything bout the man in Florida! Why? Both are American. This is America were people have came for Centuries to escape Religious pursecution. I think that we have forgotten our roots and the reasons our Ancestors came here. We are after all suppose to be the land of the FREE, with rights that every man, woman and child should and can be able to worship the God they want and in the way they want. We are and always will be a melting pot, a mixture of races, beliefs and ideas. Thats who and what we are. Terrorists are just that terrorists. They have no regard for life in any form, so there is in my mind a world of difference. Maybe those who are so focused on blaming the Muslims for this act, needs counselling to learn that revenge and hostility begat only more revenge and hositility and in the end makes us no better than the terrorist themselves. Which is what they want, to have us fighting amongst each other, loosing focus and destroying ourselves! No religion that I know preaches violence or the taking of another life, but War produces horrible acts that human nature sometimes can not process and deal with. So PLEASE lets focus on our loss, our beautiful young men and women are gone. Let us praise their lives instead of honoring the horrible deed that has been done! ....nicely put,,thank you actually i think i debunked the entire statemnet and look im not trying to cause trouble here but its time this pc nonsense stops! lets just tell the truth here! we have muslim terrorists threatening the worlds safety that are on a killing rampage! they do it in the name of allah! does it mean muslims are bad ofcourse not, but to ignore the fact its completely in religous nature is rediculous! The muslims can fix this by weeding them out, not by taking offense to the fact we want this sect of their religon gone! But being too defensive is making matters worse! if i where muslim i would be more offended by the terrorists and would be fighting to defeat them! Yes i know many are and dying to defeat them i fought beside them so i know but many are not! this is not a small problem! they are not few in number, they have large armies and many followers! Millions! |
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You still don't get it.
1. It does happen continuously, just ask the mothers and fathers who have lost good children from school shootings, gang violence, drunk drivers, child rapists, murderers. Don't hear you then! Do you seperate the evil in a person by his religion ~ NO! We judge him as a person who did evil. We don't say oh he was a Christian so lets kill them all. 2. You don't have all the facts my friend. Let it be proved that he was a Muslim Wacko first, then sling your words of hate. 3. Most people are not full of hate. Most people, no the majority of people in the world aren't full of hate. That's all you have projected so far and you've still not proven a thing. 4. If you agree that the majority of Muslims are honest, loving, caring and proud to be American, tell me what the difference is for this incident. You can't honestly, because you don't know. Your not there and you don't have the facts. You are slandering a man who you don't know anything abt. Wait till all the facts are in and then LISTEN CAREFULLY to what they are. One man who can not deal any longer with the horrors he has dealt with can not be the example of all, nor can he be labeled a terrorist. He simply was a man who had all he could hold mentally and you should realize that. It happens! 5. I didn't see "ALL" of them dancing in the streets and neither did you. You saw a minority not the majority!!! 6. Ah whats to say you aren't the wacko and the rest of us are sane? How can you make that determination? 7. I don't care what color you are nor do I care what religion you are, I do care that you seem to make it your place to judge and don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot. Is it possible you are wrong? Seems to me it's a big possibility. For the record I'm white too does that make me wacko? No! I'm a Pagan too, does that make me wacko? I got all religions and races in my background just like you but I don't judge you becoz of it. 8. What a short memory, or maybe you just haven't lived long enough. Go back in history, ask President Kennedy about that or maybe the children that have died in schools, etc. I don't think t shooter put a number on anyone. You been in war, you ever killed anyone, is that not indiscrimanately killing of another human? I would think it is. Not premeditated! 9. Well a melting pot, you agree, then know that you shouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions, you just might point your finger and hate towards an innocent person, what would that then make you? 10. Who said it was Muslim? Your the only one I've heard say that. Discrimination ~ whether over a mans race or his religion is what we have fought so hard to get rid of. It is why we have brave men and women in harms way. It's why people who think like you have a voice when the majority disagrees. Terrorists are good at it, believing theirs is the only way, now where does that leave you? |
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Problems: 1. Afghan war isn't doing good 2. Public aren't supporting the wars 3. Soldiers' morale is all time low 4. Not enough troops and stretched too thin 5. People are signing up to the Army for all the wrong reasons. Unemployment, quick cash, college tuition. They forget that they can be deployed and need to kill people or be killed. 6. These wars don't make any sense, neither of them made the world safer, neither of them got the world more peaceful, neither of them benefited anyone anywhere anyhow. |
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You still don't get it. 1. It does happen continuously, just ask the mothers and fathers who have lost good children from school shootings, gang violence, drunk drivers, child rapists, murderers. Don't hear you then! Do you seperate the evil in a person by his religion ~ NO! We judge him as a person who did evil. We don't say oh he was a Christian so lets kill them all. No you dont get it they are killing because of religon! And to metion every type of killing and compare that lot to a singular problem is a very weak argument! Also we do get discriptive in murders......thats why we have hate crime legislation. 2. You don't have all the facts my friend. Let it be proved that he was a Muslim Wacko first, then sling your words of hate. Lol..... why are you defending his ideaology? Nope don't have facts as in he has been convicted in a court of law. But i have read the reports and i beleive he is and any honest person would come to the same conclusion! 3. Most people are not full of hate. Most people, no the majority of people in the world aren't full of hate. That's all you have projected so far and you've still not proven a thing. I have proven you wrong multiple times you just won't admit it! I have projected vengence for my fallen comrades which i beleive is a natural feeling if you love your country and fellow americans. 4. If you agree that the majority of Muslims are honest, loving, caring and proud to be American, tell me what the difference is for this incident. Well the reports say that he was an extremist and i happen to beleive them thats my opinion! why dont you beleive them? You can't honestly, because you don't know. Your not there and you don't have the facts. You are slandering a man who you don't know anything abt. omg slandering a man, how bout a murderer! i guess i dont have the facts on that either! Wait till all the facts are in and then LISTEN CAREFULLY to what they are. One man who can not deal any longer with the horrors he has dealt with can not be the example of all, nor can he be labeled a terrorist. He simply was a man who had all he could hold mentally and you should realize that. It happens! OMG! just dont want to admit the facts do you and when im right you gonna come bak and admit it? i doubt it! 5. I didn't see "ALL" of them dancing in the streets and neither did you. You saw a minority not the majority!!! Lol i gotta go but but ill get the video for you and your again ot willing to face facts! 6. Ah whats to say you aren't the wacko and the rest of us are sane? How can you make that determination? its called an opinion and i'm not wrong cause i am honest!! 7. I don't care what color you are nor do I care what religion you are, I do care that you seem to make it your place to judge and don't like it when the shoe is on the other foot. Is it possible you are wrong? Seems to me it's a big possibility. For the record I'm white too does that make me wacko? No! I'm a Pagan too, does that make me wacko? I got all religions and races in my background just like you but I don't judge you becoz of it. i dont either! you just assume i do because im not afarid to say the truth and offend people with the truth! 8. What a short memory, or maybe you just haven't lived long enough. Go back in history, ask President Kennedy about that or maybe the children that have died in schools, etc. I don't think t shooter put a number on anyone. You been in war, you ever killed anyone, is that not indiscrimanately killing of another human? I would think it is. Not premeditated! war is war, terrorism is terrorism i define them differently than you! they are not the same in my opinion! Yes i have seen things but thats my personal business and trust me i know it aint pretty but real! So escaping the the reality of evil is impossible you must fight it! 9. Well a melting pot, you agree, then know that you shouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions, you just might point your finger and hate towards an innocent person, what would that then make you? an apoligetic person but i'm not wrong and if you want to wager i am willing to wager he was an extremist! 10. Who said it was Muslim? Your the only one I've heard say that. Discrimination ~ whether over a mans race or his religion is what we have fought so hard to get rid of. It is why we have brave men and women in harms way. It's why people who think like you have a voice when the majority disagrees. Terrorists are good at it, believing theirs is the only way, now where does that leave you? open the newspaper or watch the news, he was a muslim already been reported! The majority does not disagree with me! maybe on a liberal website but america doesnt! Saying that a muslim man high on extremism kills as is happening throughout the world is just a fact! There is a muslim sect in the world right now killing and thats a fact too! almost every week another bomb goes off! So what are you talking about? If we ignore the fact this is a religon itwould be foolish and dangerous! |
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You know some keep saying Muslim, what if, just for the sake of argument, it was a Baptist, Methodist or better yet a Pagan who had cracked under the stress? Would we still be so quick to decide it was religious in nature? For the most part I believe not. I believe American Muslims are honest, loving, careing and proud to be an American. I feel certain that the majority of Muslims overseas are good people. You keep on with the wacko muslim, but you don't say anything bout the man in Florida! Why? Both are American. This is America were people have came for Centuries to escape Religious pursecution. I think that we have forgotten our roots and the reasons our Ancestors came here. We are after all suppose to be the land of the FREE, with rights that every man, woman and child should and can be able to worship the God they want and in the way they want. We are and always will be a melting pot, a mixture of races, beliefs and ideas. Thats who and what we are. Terrorists are just that terrorists. They have no regard for life in any form, so there is in my mind a world of difference. Maybe those who are so focused on blaming the Muslims for this act, needs counselling to learn that revenge and hostility begat only more revenge and hositility and in the end makes us no better than the terrorist themselves. Which is what they want, to have us fighting amongst each other, loosing focus and destroying ourselves! No religion that I know preaches violence or the taking of another life, but War produces horrible acts that human nature sometimes can not process and deal with. So PLEASE lets focus on our loss, our beautiful young men and women are gone. Let us praise their lives instead of honoring the horrible deed that has been done! ....nicely put,,thank you actually i think i debunked the entire statemnet and look im not trying to cause trouble here but its time this pc nonsense stops! lets just tell the truth here! we have muslim terrorists threatening the worlds safety that are on a killing rampage! they do it in the name of allah! does it mean muslims are bad ofcourse not, but to ignore the fact its completely in religous nature is rediculous! The muslims can fix this by weeding them out, not by taking offense to the fact we want this sect of their religon gone! But being too defensive is making matters worse! if i where muslim i would be more offended by the terrorists and would be fighting to defeat them! Yes i know many are and dying to defeat them i fought beside them so i know but many are not! this is not a small problem! they are not few in number, they have large armies and many followers! Millions!  Muslims are fighting the terrorists.
Egypt,Pakistan,Turkey,and Jordan (all muslim countries)are our allies in the war on terrorism
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Problems: 1. Afghan war isn't doing good 2. Public aren't supporting the wars 3. Soldiers' morale is all time low 4. Not enough troops and stretched too thin 5. People are signing up to the Army for all the wrong reasons. Unemployment, quick cash, college tuition. They forget that they can be deployed and need to kill people or be killed. 6. These wars don't make any sense, neither of them made the world safer, neither of them got the world more peaceful, neither of them benefited anyone anywhere anyhow. not sure of your M.O.S my experience was the oppisite but i was 91 lima and airborne and all gung ho..... the mechanics on the other hand or other type M.O.S.'s dealing with logistics where different. i was in a scout platoon and we where all crazy gung ho! But i dont doubt what your saying i seen a lot too just always in other barracks! |
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You know some keep saying Muslim, what if, just for the sake of argument, it was a Baptist, Methodist or better yet a Pagan who had cracked under the stress? Would we still be so quick to decide it was religious in nature? For the most part I believe not. I believe American Muslims are honest, loving, careing and proud to be an American. I feel certain that the majority of Muslims overseas are good people. You keep on with the wacko muslim, but you don't say anything bout the man in Florida! Why? Both are American. This is America were people have came for Centuries to escape Religious pursecution. I think that we have forgotten our roots and the reasons our Ancestors came here. We are after all suppose to be the land of the FREE, with rights that every man, woman and child should and can be able to worship the God they want and in the way they want. We are and always will be a melting pot, a mixture of races, beliefs and ideas. Thats who and what we are. Terrorists are just that terrorists. They have no regard for life in any form, so there is in my mind a world of difference. Maybe those who are so focused on blaming the Muslims for this act, needs counselling to learn that revenge and hostility begat only more revenge and hositility and in the end makes us no better than the terrorist themselves. Which is what they want, to have us fighting amongst each other, loosing focus and destroying ourselves! No religion that I know preaches violence or the taking of another life, but War produces horrible acts that human nature sometimes can not process and deal with. So PLEASE lets focus on our loss, our beautiful young men and women are gone. Let us praise their lives instead of honoring the horrible deed that has been done! ....nicely put,,thank you actually i think i debunked the entire statemnet and look im not trying to cause trouble here but its time this pc nonsense stops! lets just tell the truth here! we have muslim terrorists threatening the worlds safety that are on a killing rampage! they do it in the name of allah! does it mean muslims are bad ofcourse not, but to ignore the fact its completely in religous nature is rediculous! The muslims can fix this by weeding them out, not by taking offense to the fact we want this sect of their religon gone! But being too defensive is making matters worse! if i where muslim i would be more offended by the terrorists and would be fighting to defeat them! Yes i know many are and dying to defeat them i fought beside them so i know but many are not! this is not a small problem! they are not few in number, they have large armies and many followers! Millions! Muslims are fighting the terrorists.
Egypt,Pakistan,Turkey,and Jordan (all muslim countries)are our allies in the war on terrorism
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You know what i hate! when liberals act like american soldiers agree with them. lol...... far from it! most soldiers are not even in agreement with republicans because they are far too liberal! The core of our fighting force hate politics and wish that we could take the gloves off! They want to fight to win and come home alive! They love the man next to them not some sleazy politician that lies and lies! They want to see america pull out the mighty american air power and naval power and just slaughter them! So please stop speaking of us as if we are children that need your support! We volunteer to fight for our country, so get out the way and let the real american men get the job done! They arnt getting paid to think.
And how do you slaughter over one-third of all the humans on the planet?
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You know what i hate! when liberals act like american soldiers agree with them. lol...... far from it! most soldiers are not even in agreement with republicans because they are far too liberal! The core of our fighting force hate politics and wish that we could take the gloves off! They want to fight to win and come home alive! They love the man next to them not some sleazy politician that lies and lies! They want to see america pull out the mighty american air power and naval power and just slaughter them! So please stop speaking of us as if we are children that need your support! We volunteer to fight for our country, so get out the way and let the real american men get the job done! They arnt getting paid to think.
And how do you slaughter over one-third of all the humans on the planet?
thats quite an asumption mirror??? Innocent people die in war, but you can't win if your not willing to take the risk.. so with your argument dont send me to fight if you want to let them hide behind the skirts of their women! |
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I never said one way or the other about fighting becoz of their religion nor did condone in any way his act of violence. You are so full of anger. You think you are right but in truth it's attitudes and opinions like your that coz conflict. If your so ready to enilate another life why don't up reup and go over there? You obviously arent dealin with it here. I am not wrong. You are. Decisions made in anger and haste bring only death and destruction. War and death is not always the solution, it only encourages the problem. Let me tell you something I have a long Military history in my family and I have buried my friends and I would stand and do my duty as a citizen any day, so don't go pushing your so special becoz your out for vengence for your buddies. Why don't you turn that into doing it for your Country? Vengence is born of hate and anger. Step on my toes and yes I'm gonna fight back, but to attack people before I know ALL the facts, no. Everyone in this country, American Citizens regardless of religion, have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty and since you are not Judge and Jury, then what you presume is only presumption not fact or truth. Honestly your answers are confusing and conflicting. Don't bother answering me, narrow minded people are not worth my time. Blessed Be!
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lok just for clarification.....like i should have to but you know there are the bigots tht assume things!
Muslim extremeist and muslims are not the same thing in my opinion! I see them as two completely different entities. The KKK was a christian organization founded by the democratic party after the civil war. i am a christian however i am no democrat and i am no kkk. People don't want to accept things that are true! i made that statement for two resons because someone is gonna say no its not true but it is look it up and to show that i can admit that the kkk was christian and not feel any association to the kkk! you see conservatives have always battled racism they have a record of it throughout history, today they happen to be fighting against reverse racism and people wont accept that! a white guy doesnt have the right to not be hated in many peoples opinion. but for a conservative to fight against racism it must be for all men not just the minority! my point is that race should be a non-issue but it's not at all! religon should be a private matter but it's not! So ignoring that race and religon exsist is foolish! so when people are dying and a paticular group "muslim extremists" not "muslims" are killing them we need to educate ourselves and prepare for battle! i wouldnt look for an extremist in catholic curch sorry probably not gonna find one there. I am just a realist not a racist! i also love my country and with all its flaws its still the best thing going, so for now i'll stuff the ballot box and use the free system to fight for what i think is right. but it's unfair to accusse people of racism or bias because they are willing to state the facts in a descriptive manner for we can combat the problem! Americans are dying by the hands of muslim extremist! Thats a fact and they do it because of their religon and beleive there are rewards in heaven for killing us. thats a fact! do all muslims share this beleif, ofcourse not! but do not be fooled many do, millions beleive that we are evil and want us defeated! Millions of muslims want war against the west for religous purposes! millions hate the jews because they have their land and want revenge for the holy land! isreal has been an ally of the west and they see us as their enemy! If this is not true then why do they support the people who state this? why are their leaders hailed as herrors and they are clearly enemies of the west? Is it all religon, ofcourse not but it plays a major roll in this war! Ignoring tht fact is foolish, but we do dont we? |
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Edited by
MirrorMirror
on
Sat 11/07/09 12:44 PM
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It certainly is tragic
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