You always hear that fallacy being stated on forum. I’m not singling anyone out but normally it is Christians who will make such absurd statements. They presume that The Theory of Evolution entails that "man evolved from apes."

I honestly became so frustrated after about the 20th time explaining this that I finally gave up. About six million years ago, chimpanzees and humans diverged from a common ancestor and evolved into a unique species. It just fell on deaf ears.

Social Darwinism is actually its own ideology and was developed by Herbert Spencer. Herbert Spencer's concept of Social Darwinism has little to do with natural selection. Spencer's Social Darwinism tried to connect Darwin's biological theory with the field of social relations. The result of Social Darwinism resulted in many eugenics programs that began in America sadly.

1. I thought Eugenics started in Mirror Mirror's bedroom!
2. You still see it pop up all the time, like that book The Curve, stating that black people have naturally lower IQs than other people.
3. I do believe there is a strong tendency toward Meritocracy in America (just sit in a job interview with my face). For example the Bushies and their ilk and in thinking like HRC stating that we can destroy Iran off the face of the Earth (paraphrase) that is what we said about Vietnam and that did not go so well.

Well I guess it runs along the same lines as Albert Einstein and his Special Theory of Relativity. He made the discovery that a large amount of energy could be released from a small amount of matter. This was expressed by the equation E=mc2 (energy = mass times the speed of light squared). The atomic bomb would clearly illustrate this principle.

But Einstein was a pacifist. I would make that same comparison with the eugenics programs and Social Darwinism. Someone always has to run amuck with these things.

Whats all that about?

Just the samo samo stuff...I would reply if it wasn't the same crap over and over in different ways......

Well the past couple posts have been different at least. It’s your thread so if you feel we should be discussing something else, feel free to interject.

Its possible God used evolution to create the first two human beings.

No, he created them complete what would evolution have to do with that....They were the first two.

Its dueling Christians. Krimsa gets out her banjo.

The devil went down to Georgia
He was lookin' for a soul to steal
He was in a bind
'Cause he was way behind
And he was willin' to make a deal

When he came upon this young man
Sawin' on a fiddle and playin' it hot
And the devil jumped
Up on a hickory stump
And said boy let me tell you what

I guess you didn't know it
but I'm a fiddle player too
And if you care to take a dare I'll make a bet with you

Now you play a pretty good fiddle, boy
But give the devil his due
I'll bet a fiddle of gold
Against your soul
'Cause I think I'm better than you

The boy said my name's Johnny
And it might be a sin
But I'll take your bet
And you're gonna regret
'Cause I'm the best there's ever been

Johnny rosin up your bow and play your fiddle hard
Cause hell's broke loose in Georgia and the devil deals the cards
And if you win you get this shiny fiddle made of gold
But if you lose the devil gets your soul.

The devil opened up his case
And he said I'll start this show
And fire flew from his fingertips
As he rosined up his bow

Then he pulled the bow across the strings
And it made a [sic] evil hiss
And a band of demons joined in
And it sounded something like this


When the devil finished
Johnny said well you're pretty good old son
Just sit right in that chair right there
And let me show you how it's done

He played Fire on the Mountain
Run boys, run
The devil's in the House of the Rising Sun
Chicken in a bread pan picken' out dough
Granny does your dog bite
No child, no


The devil bowed his head
Because he knew that he'd been beat
And he laid that golden fiddle
On the ground at Johnny's feet

Johnny said, Devil just come on back
If you ever wanna try again
I done told you once you son of a *****
I'm the best there's ever been

And he played Fire on the Mountain
Run boys, run
The devil's in the House of the Rising Sun
Chicken in a bread pan picken' out dough
Granny does your dog bite
No child, no

Uhh, we are apes now. We are a member of the primate family as classified by a Christian scientist and has been accepted taxonomically for quite some time now.

Evolution is it compatible with the imagination of people 2000 years ago who didn't understand what the Sun contains, or how the planet was shaped or what a DNA is.

I would say no. Evolution is beyond the imagination of mediterrenean mythologies.

i would love love to see ANY PROOF that evolution
is true.

it's a dying religion only supported by your tax dollars.

it is a religion because there is no proof!!!!

How about human transitional fossils for starters. I will eagerly await your presentation of the skeletal remains of Adam and Eve.

Do schools in America not teach Evolution? Is it only priviliged to those who go to private schools? I find it ironic that so many Americans don't believe in this?

Well there is many proofs of many of the things we have asked in the past, which are now answered today. They were not discovered by the Christian Faith Organization either.

Here is something that might be a shock to you Deke since it sounds like you don't believe in Evolution and more on manmade writings of people 2000 years ago - http://www.realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Homo_habilis_erectus_neanderthal.htm

Today with the technology and education we now can answer many of the questions we couldn't 2000 years ago.

You have to remember people didn't know as much as we do now.

Also if you find the time to read then get the following book by the prolific author and scientist Richard Dawkins

The Ancestor's tale - A pilgrimige to the Dawn of Evolution

It is one of the richest writings on Evolution today and you will realize that it was not Christianity that had gots us where we are now as a people, but evolution.

Smiless it is taught in American public schools but as one class and as a theory. It is a required course as of now but Creationists have been working on trying to make it an elective for years.

A message to mediterrenean mythology believers:


For over 2000 years adults have been teaching their children fiction as if it is a true way of life. This continues today as many of the children look at their parents as rolemodels believing them blindly in mythological stories.

It is fortunate that some who become older actually research on their own and realize why the people believed in such superstitions in the first place. Because they didn't know and lived in fear, curiousity, or wanted answers!

Today we know much more then we did then and can actually prove why people thought the way they did back then.

One just has to be patient and read a little each day and see what scientists discover.

It is actually a very interesting path to take and you can find out so many things that will take a lifetime to learn.

One way to determine to rationalize something that is uncertain is by looking why people believed the way they did back then.

Here is an example: Muslims do not eat Pork. It is forbidden because Mohammed said it to be. Pigs eat everything and don't care what they digest. This is very true and so he came to the conclusion that pork is evil and bad for you. It was for many people did get sick eating this pork.

Now they got sick because they couldn't preserve the meat to stay fresh. It got old and rotten. People in those days just added alot of spices and salt to cover the rot. They ate it and got sick.

So Mohammed forbid it.

Today one can eat Pork if one wishes to. If you are a meat eater then you will enjoy meat that can be preserved. We are also educated to know that rotten food can make us sick.

yet today

the Muslims still say it is forbidden even though we have figured out why it was bad at the time.


Take the time to research if you are a follower of a mediterrenean mythology and understand that what you believe in may hold no truth to it.

Good luck on your research.

I also feel we are going to loose our lil pinky toe too....So within a species I have no qualms....But please I beg you show me that we evolutionized from something else...Within a species I have never had a problem with it...But has a dog ever been a cat, has a cow ever been a sheep. And please proof.

Did human beings emerge through evolutionary processes from ape-like ancestors or are we a special creation? Does belief in a creator demand that we reject or ignore science or is it possible that science and faith can be allies rather than enemies?

“With the discovery of what scientists have aptly named Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondrial Eve, new genetic and DNA evidence with the fossil record show very clearly that modern humans are not related to previously existing hominids as once believed.

Scientists now know that human origins had their beginning in a particular geographical area—the same area identified by most biblical scholars as the physical location of the Garden of Eden. Belief in a literal and historical Adam and Eve as recounted in the Bible has greater scientific credibility today than at any other time in human history.

“The old paradigm of the Darwinian theory of biological evolution is simply no longer valid in light of today’s rapidly changing technology,” But many in the scientific community refuse to accept a paradigm shift because until now, there has not been another model with superior explanatory power and predictive success to replace the evolutionary model.”

“At Reasons To Believe we have illustrated that science and faith do not contradict but rather enhance and even support one another.

Whether you're an atheist, a skeptical inquirer, a Christian, or a person of another faith Who Was Adam? will bring you up to date on the most recent human origins research. It is thought provoking and thoroughly respectful of both faith and hard science.


The four rivers of Eden.

Bringing all this together we find that the sources of all four rivers originate in the highland area which Alexander the Great knew as Armenia and we know today as eastern Turkey and western Iran.

An extra-biblical Sumerian epic known as 'Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta' relates the tale of a journey made by the envoy of Enmerkar, King of Uruk, from his home city in southern Mesopotamia, through the seven high passes of the Zagros range and down into the magical kingdom of Aratta - the 'Eldorado' of the ancient world. Enmerkar was the second ruler of Uruk after the Flood, according to the Sumerian King List. A crucial line in the epic describes the envoy descending from the last of the seven mountain passes (the Sumerians called them 'gates') and crossing a broad plain before arriving at the city of Aratta with its red-painted city wall.

Here, the Sumerian word for 'plain' is edin which some scholars believe is the source of the word Eden in Genesis.
So, combining Walker's discovery of the four rivers together with the Sumerian location of Eden, it seemed as though the whereabouts of the lost Eden. The ancient city of Susa (burial place of Daniel of the lions' den) in the south-western flood plain of Iran (Iraq was off bounds for obvious reasons) from where it was determined to retrace the Sumerian envoy's route to paradise.

Location of Eden, home of Adam
The location of Eden in Western Iran and Eastern Turkey.
Following the ancient track through the seven 'gates', you eventually reached the Miyandoab plain to the south of Lake Urmia. The journey that takes four days by car but would have taken the envoy the best part of four months by donkey. The edin remains today one of the lushest regions of the Middle East: thick soil, fruit orchards and vineyards, lazy meandering rivers. This, I am sure, was the original heart of Eden which, over time, became a much wider area, including both the salt lakes and the Garden of Eden itself. The Bible describes the latter as being 'east in Eden' - in other words to the east of but still within the wider territory of Eden.

Between the south-eastern shore of Lake Urmia and the towering volcanic peak of Mount Sahand. An hour's drive along the highway there is a long west to east valley, the slopes of which were terraced with 'every kind of tree' smothered in spring blossom God planted a garden in Eden, which is in the east, and there he put the man he had fashioned. From the soil, God caused to grow every kind of tree, enticing to look at and good to eat. [Genesis 2:8-9]
All around a high snow-laden ring enclosed the valley, nurturing its warm micro-climate. The nearest mountain to the north glowed bright red in the low evening light - a pile of pure red ochre. At its foot sprawled the regional capital of Tabriz, squatting at the centre of the valley where Adam and Eve who once lived according to biblical tradition. The first thing which came to mind was paradise lost.

Adam's name means the 'red-earth' man. God shaped Man (Heb. Adam) from the dust (Heb. aphar) of the earth (Heb. adamah) and blew the breath of life into his nostrils, and Man became a living being. [Genesis 2:7]

Return to the earth (Heb. adamah), as you were taken from it. For dust (Heb. aphar) you are and to dust (Heb. aphar) you shall return. [Genesis 3:19]

Here the word 'dust' is a poetical translation. The understanding of Hebrew aphar is the earth from which clay is made, or simply clay itself, and I believe the clay which gave Adam his name was sourced in the red mountain looking down on Tabriz.

The Hebrew word for 'garden' used in Garden of Eden is gan which has the meaning 'walled' or 'enclosed garden'. The enclosed valley of the Adji Chay is just that - a rich-soiled paradisiacal haven protected by high mountain walls. The Greek version of the Old Testament calls the Garden of Eden 'Paradise' (paradeisos) after the ancient Persian pairidaeza meaning 'enclosed parkland'. The great Meidans (royal squares) of Islamic Persia, particularly the beautiful Meidan-é Imam of Isfahan, are symbolic representations of the original Garden of Eden with their high enclosures and formal gardens containing fountains and pools.

But, back in the real Garden of Eden, we still have much more to discover. Even further to the east of the Adji Chay valley and Tabriz, beyond a high pass leading out of the Garden of Eden, is the land of Nod into which Cain was exiled after he had murdered his brother Abel. The area is still today called Upper and Lower Noqdi and many villages bear the epithet Noqdi ('belonging to Nod').

In the same region we find the town of Kheruabad. The name means 'settlement of the Kheru-people' and the Kheru were the Kerubim (Cherubs) of Genesis who protected the eastern entrance into Eden. The volcanic peak which guards the eastern gateway back into the Garden of Eden is a good candidate for the Fiery Flashing Sword of Genesis.

The Garden of Eden, home of Adam and Eve
The Garden of Eden in Western Iran.
When returning to Eden from Nod by a different route, travelling along the valley of the Ahar Chay - the next river basin north of the Adji Chay. The Ahar Chay is a major tributary of the Gaihun-Aras/Gihon which, according to Genesis 2 'winds all through the land of Cush'. A map confirmed once more that we really were in the primordial landscape of Adam and Eve. Separating the Ahar and Adji valleys, and acting as the northern wall of the Garden of Eden, stretched a high snow-capped ridge named Kusheh Dagh - the 'Mountain of Cush'.

Hardly anything has changed over the centuries - until very recently, that is, when electricity was piped up from Tabriz. The only other concession to the modern world is a fag shop and a picnic area for Tabrizi weekend tourists. They come up the mountain armed with plastic containers to collect the water which flows down from the nearby summit of the mountain. This water is regarded as having magical properties: it cures the sick and prolongs life. Many a grandma or grandpa in Tabriz are fed the holy water of Mount Sahand to keep them fit and strong. The reason for this veneration is all to do with the sacred source of the river which runs through the Garden of Eden.

Four streams (Hebrew roshim meaning 'heads'). [Genesis 2:10]
In Sumerian theology spring-water lakes on top of mountains were regarded as holy places.

Son of Man, raise a lament … You were in Eden, in the Garden of God … I made you a living creature with outstretched wings, as guardian, you were upon the holy Mountain of God, you walked in the midst of red-hot coals. … I have cast you down from the Mountain of God and destroyed you, guardian winged creature, amid the coals. [Ezekiel 28:11-19]
David Rohl, sunset in Eden, home of Adam & Eve.


You decide

If their is a Garden of Eden then would there not also be a the Bible states Adam & Eve.

This is a fallacy that people who don’t understand the theory of evolution often espouse. Never ONCE is it stated that "we evolved from apes." We DIVERGED from chimpanzee and continued to evolve into our own species as did they. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

WASHINGTON, Wed., Aug. 31, 2005 - The first comprehensive comparison of the genetic blueprints of humans and chimpanzees shows our closest living relatives share perfect identity with 96 percent of our DNA sequence, an international research consortium reported today.