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| Topic: If you think intelligent design should be taught in schools. | |
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But...this country was not founded on Christianity. It was founded on freedom of religion. This was a comment made by a Christian yet she is educated and has a basic understanding of our nation's history. Thanks, Krimsa.  I like facts, btw. |
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We agree on a lot Winx. You are a tolerant Christian which Im down with.
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Yeah yeah. Give me her name. Or can the bible not be bothered with the names of females?  Adam and Eve were the first two people of the bible. |
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We agree on a lot Winx. You are a tolerant Christian which Im down with. Thanks.  I believe in equal rights and religion staying out of politics. I have my beliefs and I would never want them forced upon other people. |
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Invisible, I wasn't calling you a liar, I was explaining why Jess's post was a logical fallacy. If you want to be offended, the go right ahead. She is saying "Well, Invisible says it and she's a German, so it must be the truth", but that doesn't follow. I'm sure this is incredibly offensive to you, but it wasn't intended to be so. And how was it then with your statement that people who believe that the Nazis were right winged are uneducated and ill informed, accusing nearly the whole German population of it? I'm not to take that serious either? If I was you I would start with thinking BEFORE spouting out these things. To know where the Nazis were standing you would have to know the entire political system in Germany at that time, which you clearly do not, otherwise you wouldn't say the things you do with such force. The Nazis of WWII were socialists. The government owned everything. They guaranteed a certain level of income and jobs to all citizens. They practiced eugenics, which was a VERY HOT socialist belief during the 20's - 40's. American socialists idealized the Nazis and practiced their own eugenics operations, which included Planned Parenthood (to deal with what Margaret Sanger called "The Negro Problem"). The Nazi government controlled every aspect of the peoples lives down to when the trains ran. Personal ownership is a conservative principle, not a Liberal one. In the US now, they want to take control of our auto industry. LIBERALS think that the government should be completely in charge while CONSERVATIVES believe in small government. The Nazis were a LIBERAL SOCIALIST party. I'm sorry if that is offensive, but I didn't bring it up to be offensive, but to correct MirrorMirror. None of you are offended that he said they were a far right wing organization and he hasn't tried even once to support that position. Your faux outrage shows that you are being dishonest. "I can't believe Spider would call the Nazis liberals!!!!!!!" But you don't even blink when the Nazis are called Conservative Christians. I know that you are someone who loves to be offended, so feel free to be offended by my post. Although Hitler did not practice religion in a churchly sense, he certainly believed in the Bible's God. Raised as Catholic he went to a monastery school and, interestingly, walked everyday past a stone arch which was carved the monastery's coat of arms which included a swastika. As a young boy, Hitler's most ardent goal was to become a priest. Much of his philosophy came from the Bible, and more influentially, from the Christian Social movement. (The German Christian Social movement, remarkably, resembles the Christian Right movement in America today.) Many have questioned Hitler's stand on Christianity. Although he fought against certain Catholic priests who opposed him for political reasons, his belief in God and country never left him. Many Christians throughout history have opposed Christian priests for various reasons; this does not necessarily make one against one's own Christian beliefs. Nor did the Vatican's Pope & bishops ever disown him; in fact they blessed him! This is blantantly false! Just read the Wiki article on Hitler and you'll see that Hitlers religious beliefs are totally contradictory to this. Hitler was antichristian. oh yeah the wiki artical. I seem to remember you trashing wiki if anyone else used it. and you have been shown many times over that Hitler was in fact a christian but you still refuse to see it. And that explains you not seeing the facts of evolution. And not seeing ID as the junk science it is. There is no way you can find one believer on the face of this earth who would not be rolling on the floor laughing at the statement "Hitler was in fact a Christian". This statement demonstrates that you have no idea what a christian even is. And that - is a fact! As to Wiki - it's being used all over this thread to attempt to prove Hitler a christian, when in fact - as Krimsa pointed out in her recapping the wiki article, Hitler was dead set against christianity. You just can't have it both ways. I've never said there is not truth or fact in Wiki - but the topic being discussed is relevant to the reliability of wikia basis of fact and truth. In the circumstance of Hitler - wiki tends to be reliable, because it can site the references to it's findings, which in turn can be researched to establish reliability. Then the reader can determine for themselves whether the author of the wiki article is presenting the facts from an unbiased viewpoint. It is easy to see that through Hitler's actions he was not a christian. And it matters not what Hitler said publically because he was a notorious liar. He lied to his people, to fellow world leaders, even to his best friends, many of whom he had murdered. Are you expecting me to believe that in your opinion Hitler represented the values and morals of a believer in Jesus Christ and that he was a disciple of him? Jesus was a Jew. Where do you think he stood in the realm of those whom Hitler admired? By the way... There are no facts of "evolution" as an origin of the species. It is a "theory", just as I.D. is. Neither of them are science. If you think so - you do not know what science is either. What "facts" of evolution are you refering to that you think I don't see? Eljay, I posted that section of Wiki to address the OP's assertions that Hitler was not a Christian. If you had taken the time to actually read it, it basically gave both sides of the debate (I did this purposely to be objective) but clearly stated that most historians take the "Table Talks" with a grain of salt. There are some that even believe those statements were taken completely out of context which is possible. Either way, what difference would it make? Hitler stated before his death that he was a Catholic. He viewed Jesus in terms of being an "Aryan Warrior" for the cause of Christianity and he often referred to the Jews as "poisonous" based in his personal interpretation of the scripture. He was seeking to create something called "Positive Christianity" Some Nazis promoted Positive Christianity which attempted to replace traditional Christian beliefs with those agreeable with Nazism, which many German Christians accepted. Even in the later years of the Third Reich, many Protestant and Catholic clergy within Germany persisted in believing that Nazism was in its essence in accordance with Christian precepts Krimsa, I realized you quoted from Wiki - I have no objection to that. As I've posted before, and I'm sure we can all agree - Wiki is not the final authority on these matters, just a poit of reference and a reasonable means to verify the source. Some of Wiki is quite accurate. Actually most of it is pretty good. There are places where it goes too far, and it is always wise to be aware of the world view of the source of the article in order to determine bias. Like I said, it's up to the reader to study it out and determine for themselves what the truth is - rather than site wiki as an absolute. So the difference comes in the discernment of the quoter and the reader. For instance - christianity is christianity. Once this idea of "positive christianity" is introduced, you no longer have christianity - for christianity is unchanging. There is an absolute associated with christianity - it is not a "majority determined" idiology. Once the path is vered off the absolute - you no longe have christianity - but something else. And using "christianity" in the label of an ideal makes it no more so than Christian Science represents anything "Christian" or "Science". So - just because one reads a reference to "Christian" in a labeled idiology does not mean it is representing anything christian. A case in point for this is that there are some christians who are Catholic - and some Catholics who have become Christians. Saying one is a Catholic does not make them a Christian. In the case of Hitler - he called himself a Catholic - but did not recieve any sacraments, nor did he attend any Catholic churches. So we have to ask - what is a Catholic? If I called myself an Atheist and said that I believed God created the world - would I be an Atheist because I decided to call myself one? The problem I have with your posts is the lack of discernment with which you are accepting the testimony of those who claim to be christians - yet by their actions are contradicting the vry essence of what it means t be one. The mere fact that Catholic or Protestant clergy beacked Hitler at any time brings into question the validity of their being christians - not whether or not Hitler was - because his ideology and actions clearly demonstrated that he was not. This can be supported biblically. And what other authority is there to determine who or what a christian is than the scriptures which establish it. |
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The problem I have with your posts is the lack of discernment with which you are accepting the testimony of those who claim to be christians - yet by their actions are contradicting the vry essence of what it means t be one. The mere fact that Catholic or Protestant clergy beacked Hitler at any time brings into question the validity of their being christians - not whether or not Hitler was - because his ideology and actions clearly demonstrated that he was not. This can be supported biblically. And what other authority is there to determine who or what a christian is than the scriptures which establish it. Bravo! But I fear that your words are falling on deaf ears. |
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Yeah yeah. Give me her name. Or can the bible not be bothered with the names of females? Adam and Eve were the first two people of the bible. Nothing was created after God rested. After the 6th day creation was finished. See Genesis 2:1-4. Nothing was created after this. |
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Edited by
Eljay
on
Mon 12/15/08 12:34 PM
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But...this country was not founded on Christianity. It was founded on freedom of religion. This was a comment made by a Christian yet she is educated and has a basic understanding of our nation's history. It wasn't founded on Christianity - it was founded by Christians. |
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But...this country was not founded on Christianity. It was founded on freedom of religion. This was a comment made by a Christian yet she is educated and has a basic understanding of our nation's history. It wasn't founded on Christianity - it was founded by Christians. Are you sure there weren't some agnostic and atheists in that group? |
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The problem with the Theory of Intellegent Design is that
1) It isn't taught as a theory along with counter theories. The Theory of Evolution was always presented as just a theory, at least when I went to school. 2) I have seen absolutely no intellegence in the design. It seems kind of random and scattered. I've seen some creativity and some artistic beauty, but intellegence nope. Why, I've seen some downright foolish things in this design. For example, the so called "chosen people" are constantly fighting over worthless desert. If they were truly "chosen" wouldn't they have some nice beachfront property in Southern California or maybe own a large section of downtown Manhattan? You know an area worth something? Just some observations, I could be wrong |
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But...this country was not founded on Christianity. It was founded on freedom of religion. This was a comment made by a Christian yet she is educated and has a basic understanding of our nation's history. It wasn't founded on Christianity - it was founded by Christians. Are you sure there weren't some agnostic and atheists in that group? |
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This country was not founded on any Christian rhetoric or ideology. Of the Founding Fathers, there were 6 known Deists. Those were:
Thomas Jefferson Benjamin Franklin James Madison John Adams Thomas Paine George Washington |
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The problem with the Theory of Intellegent Design is that 1) It isn't taught as a theory along with counter theories. The Theory of Evolution was always presented as just a theory, at least when I went to school. 2) I have seen absolutely no intellegence in the design. It seems kind of random and scattered. I've seen some creativity and some artistic beauty, but intellegence nope. Why, I've seen some downright foolish things in this design. For example, the so called "chosen people" are constantly fighting over worthless desert. If they were truly "chosen" wouldn't they have some nice beachfront property in Southern California or maybe own a large section of downtown Manhattan? You know an area worth something? Just some observations, I could be wrong Israel was a tropical paradise at one time. Right now, Israel has the fastest growing forests in the world...all of them man made. Their foresting techniques could turn many of the worlds deserts into self sustaining and growing forests. The Jews believe that God gave them that land. They are a very small religion, arguably the most hated religion in the world, with no country dedicated to their protection. They control less than one percent of the Middle East, the area that when given to them was almost completely desert wasteland with only a few nomadic people moving through. I can think of no reason why the UNs ruling that Israel could be recognized as a country should be rejected. |
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Edited by
Krimsa
on
Mon 12/15/08 01:43 PM
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Eljay and Spider if you will both be so kind as to scroll back, I posted a full rebuttal to Spider's OP.
Well the other thread that is. "Hitler on Christianity" My mistake. |
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If Hitler had really wished to eliminate Christianity, then why did he act to unite the Protestant and Catholic Churches in Germany?
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Maybe Hitler was the return of Jesus?
After all, he did seem to want to be the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and rule the earth having every knee bow to him and ever tongue confess that he is ruler. I think it's really strange how Christians can denounce someone like Hitler and then proclaim that Jesus is going to do precisely the same then when he returns (i.e. He threatens to be mean to everyone who doesn't worship him and agree to become a part of his master race). Where's the difference? It's the same agenda. One in human form, the other is supposedly a "god". Unfortunately the goals are strikingly similar.
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I agree. Thats why Im busy installing "Jesus Proof Fencing" around the perimeter of my property on the off chance that this stuff is real and he does come around. He supposedly will hunt down all of the "bad people" because he will take the form of some kind of "avenging mercenary" I dont want anything to do with that scene. I preferred him as a nice, quiet Jewish boy.
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I agree. Thats why Im busy installing "Jesus Proof Fencing" around the perimeter of my property on the off chance that this stuff is real and he does come around. He supposedly will hunt down all of the "bad people" because he will take the form of some kind of "avenging mercenary" I dont want anything to do with that scene. I preferred him as a nice, quiet Jewish boy. All you need is "Christian Proof Fencing". Those are the people who have turned Jesus into a monster. |
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The problem I have with your posts is the lack of discernment with which you are accepting the testimony of those who claim to be christians - yet by their actions are contradicting the vry essence of what it means t be one. The mere fact that Catholic or Protestant clergy beacked Hitler at any time brings into question the validity of their being christians - not whether or not Hitler was - because his ideology and actions clearly demonstrated that he was not. This can be supported biblically. And what other authority is there to determine who or what a christian is than the scriptures which establish it. Bravo! But I fear that your words are falling on deaf ears. I have to respectfully disagree with this commentary for the simple reason that I was not utilizing any of the so-called opinions of Christians in my rebuttal posts when I quoted various sources. I dont even care who someone claims to be as it relates to their religious background. Something like that would be totally irrelevant to me. Generally I will be much more concerned with their personal credentials, where they went to school, what essays they have written and on what subject matter. If they claim to be a historian, I will look over what they have to say on a particular topic and am quite capable of distinguishing for myself between agenda driven blabber and something of contextual merit. |
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Let's get back on topic..... The real question still remains should a religious ideology such Intelligent Design be taught in a classroom based on science. My answer is no. Intelligent Design has nothing to do with any form of science. Science is about creating a hypothesis or theory and then through research and testing providing facts and evidence to support or disprove such hypothesis or theory. Intelligent Design is just the christian ideological belief that the entire universe was created by a deity in seven days. Last i checked there has been no evidence or scientific proof to support such a theory and therefore it has no place in science class. We have rocks that are carbon dated over 4 billion years old. The genetic diversity in humanity is enough to suggest that over time a species adapts, changes, modifies and evolves to survive changes in the natural conditions of its environment. My question is why is it so hard for christians to consider that it was part of "God's" plan that we evolved from something else? One can still keep their faith and at the same time adapt it to current knowledge and understanding. Remeber people ignorance is something we choose not something we should believe. Imo...just a thought Hate to burst your bubble - but those rocks you are refering to - unverifiable. You cannot prove in a laboratory that those rocks are 4 billion years old using any science. It is a faith based hypothesis utilizing the premise of universality - which is not only unprovable - but can be demonstrated to be false through laboratory testing. What makes you think carbon dating is accurate? Aside from the fact that it is isotropic dating that is used now - since it has been demonstrated that carbon dating is inaccurate and cannot be ****ed on with consistant reliability. |
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