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| Topic: If 'God'... | |
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Yet if a child molester or a rapist suddenly "finds Jesus" in prison, he goes directly to heaven, yet the 15 year old innocent victim he raped and murdered who happened to be a Muslim? What is to become of her? Appeal to Emotion Fallacy. 1) If the Child molester or rapist is saved, then yes he is saved. That's how it works. All sin is wrong in God's eyes, but Jesus has already paid the price for our sins. You can condemn yourself to hell for lying, lusting or raping, any sin is a slip from perfection and therefore a reason to be condemned. 2) The hypothetical Muslim girl...I don't know. I'm not God, I cannot judge if someone will go to heaven or hell. It's an appeal to emotion because rather than using argumentation to prove your point, you are simply making a sad scenario in an attempt to disprove Christianity or prove it to be unfair. Christians believe that all are sinners, so I cannot pretend to be better than anyone. I'm not going to heaven because of anything I have done or not done, other than accepting Jesus as my savior. Christians don't automatically assume that all non-Christians are going to hell. Some are and some aren't, it's not for me to judge who is and isn't. So while I would mourn for the girl, I wouldn't think to guess where her soul would end up. Okay since my hypothetical is only an "appeal to emotion" in your eyes even though it quite clearly illustrates my point, what would happen to ANYONE else on the planet that chooses not to find Jesus or convert to Christianity? According to you, you dont know. Some might go to hell and some might not. What are you basing that on exactly? Will some Christians go to hell? Why or why not? What if you dont believe in hell? Or sin for that matter? What if you rely on your own moral compass instead of invented deities? What happens to those people? Why do some Christians feel the need to needlessly condemn people if they dont really know what will happen? I would agree with you at least that I feel you are being honest and saying you do not know. I wish more Christians would take that position because I seem to be hearing an awful lot of fire and brimstone out of people that really have no right to be espousing such nonsense. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Fri 11/28/08 11:47 AM
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.....GOD ALMIGHTY......
MAKER OF THE HEAVENS and the EARTH.... and CREATOR of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE..... KNOWS WHAT HE is DOING and Is STILL IN CONTROL!!! LET'S NOT LIMIT GOD or PUT GOD IN A BOX.... With Our LIMITED and FINITE UNDERSTANDING!!! 
WHO BUT GOD ALMIGHTY KEEPS OUR HEART BEATING ..... WHO BUT GOD ALMIGHTY GIVES US BREATH .... WHO BUT GOD ALMIGHTY GIVES LIFE !!!!! WHO BUT GOD ALMIGHTY!!!  .....LET'S THANK GOD...
INSTEAD OF JUDGING GOD NOW!!!!
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Fri 11/28/08 11:40 AM
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Spider wrote: MorningSong touched on this point, but I want to make sure it's clear. Abraham thought that Issac would be resurrected after he was killed. Abraham thought that because of God's promise to him. So Abraham was willing to kill his son if God commanded because he believed that Issac would be brought back to life. Not only was God testing Abraham's obedience, but he was also testing his trust in God. Did Abraham trust God to keep his promise? Abraham was tested and was not found wanting. Not the reason for the story. Now everyone thinks that God goes around testing people to see if they trust and will obey him. That is bull because it contradicts the idea that God knows what is in your heart and mind and that God knows what you will or will not do. If that is true, then there is no need for any tests, ever. So that logic is a moot point and it is wrong. The reason for the story is for the benefit of others, to encourage them to obey God and be willing to do anything including kill your own family if God orders you to do so. This kind of blind obedience is what those in power of religion and nations and wars want from their people, so they set up a story with a moral to teach them that they too should be as faithful and obedient at this man. It a game of propaganda and manipulation of weaker minds. Obey without question with faith that God knows best. That is the lesson the story attempts to teach. I don't like the lesson and I will not obey any voice from any source that tells me to kill my family or even a lamb. I don't and never will trust the voice of authority that is not from myself. I will decide what is right, not the church, not society, not a burning bush and not any strange voices in my head being mistaken as God. |
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Know this, the term "christian" is a term that was coined much after the death of Christ. It was probobly coined (thought up) by Paul the doctor who spent much of his time writing his interprtation of what God and Christ wanted everyone to be doing. I'm not dish'in the dude, he probobly really was trying to help. Unfortunatly too many people are stuck in this idea that the "bible" is Gods holy word. While some of it may be, most of it is not any more "Gods holy word" than what you have just read about the forgiveness available to us through the grace of God. This is where people often get sidelined, YOU CAN NOT WORK YOUR WAY INTO THE GOOD GRACES OF HEAVEN. It is a gift, it is totaly free. You do not have to go and pretend to give God 10% of something He already owns. It is all about grace and love. NOT SERVITUDE!
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Besides, how many times would god need to keep making that bet??
 
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BS spidey!! thats the biggest cop out yet!! the bible clearly states if you dont accept jesus as YOUR personal savior - you will not go to heaven!! so if the non beleiveing muslim girl did not accept christ, then where is she?? in purgatory? sheol? gahenna? hades? hell? bottom line is your playing the christian fool here in making it sound like "you dont know" it is explicitly stated what will happen to the muslim or any pagan who does not accept christ - talk about not being honest - thats crap spidey!! There is no such thing as purgatory. Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; Gentiles are a law unto themselves. John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, 'We see,' so your sin remains. I don't know the hypothetical girls heart. I don't know if she was aware of her sins or if she repented of her sins. That's God's place to judge and not mine. I was completely honest and what I said has now been supported by scripture. I except an apology from you for implying that I was being dishonest. |
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Besides, how many times would god need to keep making that bet??
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According to you, you dont know. Some might go to hell and some might not. What are you basing that on exactly? Please read my response to Tribo. Will some Christians go to hell? Why or why not? No true Christian will go to hell, but many people who claim to be Christians will. What if you dont believe in hell? Or sin for that matter? I don't believe in hell as your average Christian does, but I still use the term. But to answer your question: if you don't believe in gravity and jump off a cliff, you are going to die regardless of your disbelief. Disbelief does not change reality, only your perception of reality. God has promised that when the judgment comes, we will all see reality for what it is and no longer be blinded to the truth. What if you rely on your own moral compass instead of invented deities? What happens to those people? Why do some Christians feel the need to needlessly condemn people if they dont really know what will happen? I don't condemn and neither does any Christian. Jesus is the only guaranteed way to heaven. Period. But some may be saved by obeying their conscience. It behooves Christians to point out the easier path to salvation walked by Jesus, rather than allow the world to risk the finding their own way. I would agree with you at least that I feel you are being honest and saying you do not know. I wish more Christians would take that position because I seem to be hearing an awful lot of fire and brimstone out of people that really have no right to be espousing such nonsense. Thank you for taking me at my word. |
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BS spidey!! thats the biggest cop out yet!! the bible clearly states if you dont accept jesus as YOUR personal savior - you will not go to heaven!! so if the non beleiveing muslim girl did not accept christ, then where is she?? in purgatory? sheol? gahenna? hades? hell? bottom line is your playing the christian fool here in making it sound like "you dont know" it is explicitly stated what will happen to the muslim or any pagan who does not accept christ - talk about not being honest - thats crap spidey!! There is no such thing as purgatory. Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; Gentiles are a law unto themselves. John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, 'We see,' so your sin remains. I don't know the hypothetical girls heart. I don't know if she was aware of her sins or if she repented of her sins. That's God's place to judge and not mine. I was completely honest and what I said has now been supported by scripture. I except an apology from you for implying that I was being dishonest. nice try no gold ring!! go buy jesus words!! can a person go to heaven any other way than by accepting JESUS CHRIST according to the book?? NO!!! so if you hold this true, then if she did not accept him she is not in heaven - leaving the other choices i outlined minus pergatory if you dont hold to that the rest = hell/seperation from the god and his heavenly host. i'll accept your apology when your ready! |
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Edited by
Spidercmb
on
Fri 11/28/08 12:07 PM
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BS spidey!! thats the biggest cop out yet!! the bible clearly states if you dont accept jesus as YOUR personal savior - you will not go to heaven!! so if the non beleiveing muslim girl did not accept christ, then where is she?? in purgatory? sheol? gahenna? hades? hell? bottom line is your playing the christian fool here in making it sound like "you dont know" it is explicitly stated what will happen to the muslim or any pagan who does not accept christ - talk about not being honest - thats crap spidey!! There is no such thing as purgatory. Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; Gentiles are a law unto themselves. John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, 'We see,' so your sin remains. I don't know the hypothetical girls heart. I don't know if she was aware of her sins or if she repented of her sins. That's God's place to judge and not mine. I was completely honest and what I said has now been supported by scripture. I except an apology from you for implying that I was being dishonest. nice try no gold ring!! go buy jesus words!! can a person go to heaven any other way than by accepting JESUS CHRIST according to the book?? NO!!! so if you hold this true, then if she did not accept him she is not in heaven - leaving the other choices i outlined minus pergatory if you dont hold to that the rest = hell/seperation from the god and his heavenly host. i'll accept your apology when your ready! The second quote is from Jesus. John 9:41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, 'We see,' so your sin remains. He is speaking of spiritual blindness, which is a condition that we all live in during the early years of our life. For the Christian, the entire Bible is the word of God. So while the words of Jesus hold a special significance to the Christian, the words of Paul, Peter, John and the other authors of both the New and Old Testament are also truthful and useful in teaching and moral guidance. Edit: Your objection that I must use "the words of Jesus" is without merit in any Biblical theological discussion. No reputable theologian would say "Well if Jesus didn't say it, I'm going to ignore it". So my first quote stands Romans 2:14-15 is equally valid as any other scripture. |
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Yet if a child molester or a rapist suddenly "finds Jesus" in prison, he goes directly to heaven, yet the 15 year old innocent victim he raped and murdered who happened to be a Muslim? What is to become of her? Appeal to Emotion Fallacy. 1) If the Child molester or rapist is saved, then yes he is saved. That's how it works. All sin is wrong in God's eyes, but Jesus has already paid the price for our sins. You can condemn yourself to hell for lying, lusting or raping, any sin is a slip from perfection and therefore a reason to be condemned. 2) The hypothetical Muslim girl...I don't know. I'm not God, I cannot judge if someone will go to heaven or hell. It's an appeal to emotion because rather than using argumentation to prove your point, you are simply making a sad scenario in an attempt to disprove Christianity or prove it to be unfair. Christians believe that all are sinners, so I cannot pretend to be better than anyone. I'm not going to heaven because of anything I have done or not done, other than accepting Jesus as my savior. Christians don't automatically assume that all non-Christians are going to hell. Some are and some aren't, it's not for me to judge who is and isn't. So while I would mourn for the girl, I wouldn't think to guess where her soul would end up. the way i see it, i don't want to put words in anyone else's mouth, but i've come across that "appeal to emotion fallacy" arugument before and when i think about it, it is indeed a legitimate way of outing the insulting nature of religion toward god (if he exists, i don't presume to know). To say that god is so stupid that he places the rapist on the same level as the person who works on the sabbath under the blanket category of "sinner" and each are deserving of the same cruel fate is absurd To say that a rapist or murderer who after he's had his fun decides to get saved, and that god favours that person over an innocent child who had no choice but to have been born to or brought up in a religion determined by its parents who, like christian parents, shove this religion down his/her throat before he/she is old enough to understand what it is, paints god as being stupid and unjust. Surely a god intelligent enough to create the intricacies of life on this planet is insulted by what man attribute to be his line of thinking... surely you have to admit you cannot presume to know his line of thinking.... nor did the primitive man who had nothing better to do than create stories and fables as was the case in all primitive societies, that any rational person can see are flawed. Wouldn't an all-knowing god be aware of the danger of the idea of religion in the hands of human beings, each one of which claiming to have absolute truth? Wouldnt he have been able to foretell what would become of human beings claiming to have divine sanction to kill? Why would he not see the error of that premise and stepped in during the crusades? Why are the rules for what is just and common sense in the wider world not applicable to religion? Why believe the bible unquestioningly, and if i were to write a book claiming to know the secret to ever lasting life, you would be rightfully skeptical and demand proof? Do you think a judge should both sentence a murderer and jaywalker to life in prison? Do you think that a child should be made culpable for the wrongdoings of his/her parents? |
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Dont the Catholics believe in purgatory? Isnt it something like the "layover area" for hell? You wait there to go to be singled out and organized for the trip to hell?
Now why do you think there is no purgatory yet you do think there is a hell? The concept of hell is nothing more than sheol which was pretty much neutral and nothing more than a grave. The Christians just blew it all out of proportion. Well the Christians and the Muslims both to be fair. But it was easier to keep converts in line that way. You didnt even have the concept of a Devil in early Christianity. All Satan became was a coping mechanism for Christians because you didnt want to associate all of the earthly evil that men do with your god. It required an embodiment all its own. |
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hey jasmine, ptu the little green helmut kitty back up...pweez..he's/she's my fav here you go you adorable homo sapien you
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Dont the Catholics believe in purgatory? Isnt it something like the "layover area" for hell? You wait there to go to be singled out and organized for the trip to hell? Catholics believe in a lot of things that aren't explicitly in the Bible. I don't accept theology from non-Biblical sources, so I reject the idea of purgatory. Now why do you think there is no purgatory yet you do think there is a hell? The concept of hell is nothing more than sheol which was pretty much neutral and nothing more than a grave. The Christians just blew it all out of proportion. Well the Christians and the Muslims both to be fair. But it was easier to keep converts in line that way. You don't know what I believe about hell. I have already said that I don't believe in hell as other Christians do. If you want to discuss what people believe about hell, then stick to generalizations, because you honestly don't know what I believe. Fair enough? You didnt even have the concept of a Devil in early Christianity. All Satan became was a coping mechanism for Christians because you didnt want to associate all of the earthly evil that men do with your god. It required an embodiment all its own. That's false. The Old Testament and the New Testament both speak of "the adversary". Jesus taught about the adversary, so Christianity from it's very origins have had the concept of a spiritual adversary of humans. But that's sort of beside the point, because Satan doesn't make anyone sin, all sins originate in our own hearts. |
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my posts are a lot longer than i intend them to be lol... i guess i just ramble on unintentionally
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my posts are a lot longer than i intend them to be lol... i guess i just ramble on unintentionally
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nice try no gold ring!! go buy jesus words!! can a person go to heaven any other way than by accepting JESUS CHRIST according to the book?? NO!!! so if you hold this true, then if she did not accept him she is not in heaven - leaving the other choices i outlined minus pergatory if you dont hold to that the rest = hell/seperation from the god and his heavenly host. i'll accept your apology when your ready! I would also like to point out something. You implied that I was lying when I said that I didn't know if a Muslim would go to heaven or not. I showed you the scriptures that support my belief that I can't say for sure who will go to heaven. Regardless of what your personal beliefs are or how you feel the Bible should be interpreted, it should be clear that what I posted are my beliefs on the subject. Therefore you owe me an apology. You don't have to admit that I'm right, you don't have to believe what I believe, but it should be obvious that what I posted is what I believe. It would behoove you to treat those with whom you debate with respect and accept them at their word. Since you didn't take my word, I offered scriptures and reasoning to support my belief. It should be beyond a reasonable doubt that I truly believe that some non-Christians are going to heaven, so you should apologize for implying that I was a liar. I will leave it up to your conscience and sense of fair play to apologize if you see fit, this is the last I will mention the subject. |
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.....GOD ALMIGHTY...... LET'S NOT LIMIT GOD or PUT GOD IN A BOX.... With Our LIMITED and FINITE UNDERSTANDING!!!
But that's precisely what the Bible does. If you worship the Bible you put God in a box. You demand that God be like the Bible says. God must be jealous for the Bible tells us so. God must be a cohort of Satan for the Bible tells us so. God must lust for blood sacrifices for the Bible tells us so. What non-Christians are trying to tell the Christians is to quite putting God in a Box! Christians worship the Bible! Not God! They claim that God hates people who love their same gender for the Bible tells us so. The Bible dictates what God is like and is a history of his evil deeds. The people who murdered the so-called heathens in the name of God did so because they had put God in a box and used a manmade mythology to ram words down his throat. I don't believe that God is anything at all like that horrid godforsaken book claims. Christians worship a BOOK! Only the so-called "heathens" worship God. If you want to worship God the first thing you need to do is denounce the Bible and move away from the "God in a Box". Make up your mind. Do you want to believe in a God? Or do you want to believe in a male-chauvinsitic bigoted hateful book? The choice is yours Morningsong. |
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Wow!!!!
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............... errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr..... sheesh!!  I'm speechless....
(that's a first!) |
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*burp*...
'scuse me 
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