Alas, the "forum" medium is not very conducive to gaining a full understanding of someone else’s viewpoint. I say this because it was “an awakening” of my own that led me in the exact opposite direction – away from (what I interpret to be) your opinion, and toward the opinion I now have. So I am left with the feeling that, although we are using the same words, “the subconscious” means something completely different to each of us.

That's totally cool, Sky. The practice of EMDR for a Treatment would suggest possible defect within the subconscious that needs to be tinkered with. I thought that way of it until this one particular experience.

To me... the subconscious might be like a telephone cord to higher knowing... That "higher knowing" may reside in ALL, but have the potential to be accessed by "mortals" via the subconscious.

How?

I don't know...

...yet.

This is a little amusing. Using your analogy, I think of the subconscious as being not the cords themselves, but "breaks" in the cords of the "conscious mind". The action of "revealing" one of the hidden thoughts, processes or conslusions from the subcounscious, is like "repairing a break in the conscious mind". So maybe we're not so far apart after all.

Actually...

After reading your last post, I'd like to re-phrase my last post and add a smidgen.

The practice of EMDR for a Treatment might suggest possible "defect" within the conscious mind that needs to be tinkered with by accessing information via the subconscious.

"Defect" being the misinterpretation.

We're definitely making progress here.

So I assume that, since the subconscious is the "medium" through which this information is transmitted, then the "source" of the information is what you call "the higher self". (Not sure what the "destination" of the information would be, but that's really not relevant to where I'm going with this.)

So with a little fudging here and there, I could get behind that. My "fudge" would be something like this: The "higher self" would be defined as "me, without any defects in my conscious mind". Which aligns very well with my view of my own personal "spiritual journey" - the purpose of which could be stated as: "to fix all the defects in my conscious mind."

Yes, indeed!

It is SO appreciated that you take the time to understand and consider this as even possible.

In reference to meditating, and being in a state of "no thought"...

In my practices, meditation is a tool used to allow the soul to slowly seep out of its normal dwelling spot, to make itself present to allow a connection between the mind and soul. This is done to "evolve" on a spiritual level...if you have ever felt a strange sensation in your body when meditating, in my point of view and belief, you are allowing your soul to take over, or as others have put it, tapping into your "higher" self.

a lot of people use meditation for different purposes, and a lot of people get a different effect from using different techniques, though for me as I meditate, it strengthens certain perception abilities. Much like how sometimes you feel you are in the wrong place, where you feel danger, you get this sensation hinting that you are in danger.

For me, it's almost a feeling of my entire body being enveloped in static, that somehow makes me begin to walk away from where I'm currently at to avoid whatever it is that can cause harm. In accordance to the meditation state, its a dense feeling, a heavyness that surrounds the body...and the hard part of this meditation is forcing the brain to shut off long enough to not attain fear, because in early attempts most people get scared of the feeling and break the meditation state...well you never actually flip the off switch on the brain, its more like it turns to passive mode to allow everything "around" or "within" it, to function totally entirely separate for a moment.

I believe we are all connected, and at one point, acted as a single conscious mind to a certain degree...like someone stated on here, they talked about prayer...what most religious people neglect to notice is that when they assemble in an organized prayer, regardless of the place weather it's someones house or church, the sum of the people, lets say 40 people gathered to pray for a person..what they are doing...is attempting to have 1 conscious mind, to be so strong, to send a message. They see it as being one loud voice seeking aid from God, tho I, think differently, I believe they send "energy"...to me this energy is "part" of God just as we are

In ending to this long post...I just believe humans are more than meets the eye, and we are capable of all sorts of things...I wonder if anyone here has ever heard of dynamo jack...he had some abilities, and controlled energy that could not be measured on any scale because its energy tho acted like electricity, was not electricity. The man called Dynamo Jack called this energy chi.[unless I'm mistaken, it's been awhile since I read and viewed what he was capable of...but he was a pretty interesting individual...he used his energy as a doctor...and he demonstrated what his energy could do in terms of destructive force...hard to take in, but I believe all he did he really in fact did do.

That is exactly how I see it........now that is. It took me a while to go from organized religion to my own personal spirituality and being able to understand and put into context the things I truly did experience.....even if the way it was explained to me, or what it was explained to me to be was incorrect.

As they should.

Scientology is a mind control Cult.

There is nothing scientific about it - not even remotely close.

Boy that one slammed shut with a resounding bang.

I respect your right to your opinion Eljay, but to me, a vehemently simplistic statement like that smacks of "mind control" itself.

Just my opinion.

Eljay, off the top of your head, how much do you know about Scientology? How exactly is it mind control? Please be specific.

JB

EMDR has been used for many years to treat post traumatic stress syndrom and several years ago it became a tool to use with children who has been abused or subject experiences that affected them similar to PTS.

It's still in the study stage and there is almost as much 'unknown' about its workings, as there is known.

Some recent studies, in the past year and half have indicated that the 'hand movement' used with the current method may not be necessary, as other diversions may work as well.

It may not even be that rapid eye movement is necessary as long as there is sufficient diversion to elicit the brain activity necessary to go through the experience. Anyway, technical stuff.

As for the "sub-conscious". We are not as multi-functional as you might think. Actually, whatever, we are thinking, or working on, or involved in or experienceing at this very moment is ALL that is in the forefront of our thoughts, all the rest, the sum total of all our memories and experiences are in the sub-conscious. It remains there until we "re-call" it to the forefront of our current thoughts.

Aside from this, are memories that we 'repress' and sometimes we repress them because they are traumatic. Unless we face them and "desensitize' their memory they may always be in the backgound, ready to strike us into panic, or render us unstable and prevent us from freedom of choice in our lives.

It's not that we CAN'T recall, its' that, the memory is "traumatic". The use of EMDR allows the person to re-call for seconds, while having their focus (attention) divided. In this way, after several sessions, the person LEARNS to deal with the past events.

This is not so mystical, it is simply something we don't yet have all the specifics on. But if there is no danger (as experiments indicate none exist) and if there seems to be releif, then SOMEONE is bound to stake a claim on the PROFIT bandwagon.

In the meantime - science is still experimenting and leaning about this method of relief.

Having been a particiant in this Cult - I think "mind control" is quite apt. What was your experience with it that would differ wih this interpretation? I'm curious.

From what I've read (admitedly not very much, having just brushed the surface) EMDR looks like an alteration of Dianetic auditing. It doesn't appear to make any differentiation between the three very distinct types of "incidents" that are very clearly delineated and addressed by Dianetics.

Jeannie;

I know quite a bit about it. I was involved with it back in the 80's, and my roomate back then was quite immersed in it - to the tune of close to 80 thousand before he finally got out.

I don't think a dissertation on Scientology would be fitting for this thread - I just commented on the reference to it - because it has no relation to the discussion of the subject of the subconcious as it is being conducted here.

Eckantar (of which I'm the least familiar with) - EST - Scientology, all use smilar tactics, if not the same ones. Most of Liftons triggers for recognising mind control tactics are found in Scientology. I'll leave it at that unless there is more curiosity on this. Feral wrote a very informative thread on this a while back - so it's sort of been covered.

Well - I'm not familiar with EMDR aside of what I'm reading here. Is this a "step" process which one has to be lead through? does it have it's own termanology - needing someone to "determine the interpretation" for the "patient"? How much does the "process" cost, and what are the developing stages?

My experience was that it presented information, in the form of new ideas and premises, that I had never though of or encountered before. The use of these new ideas and premises allowed me to answer questions that have never been answered, to my satisfaction, by anything else. So in my experience, it has been the exact opposite of "brainwashing". It has allowed me to discover my own answers instead of relying on the authoritative answers of others.

Edit: And even more importantly really, it gave me tools that I could use to identify and expose the falsity of ideas that I had just assumed to be true but had never examined.

I knew someone involved in Scientology who's descriptions of their concepts seemed to be based on some fairly logical principles. Another friend spoke of his Scientologist neighbors who he'd seen doing some practice of holding on to two metal objects... had to do with transferring energy or something. That part seemed not as logical. Mostly because I didn't have enough information...

...not to mention the fact that the guy described his neighbors as "freaks" .

Most people, when confronted with logic other than that through which they're accustomed to operating, will tend to jump straight into judgment...

...without even considering the logic as even remotely plausible.

Imagine how much broader comprehension we could enjoy if individuals started considering logic other than only that through which they've previously operated.

Red:


Way back in '94, the Therapist who facilitated EMDR for me began with hand movements. Because I felt the need to close my eyes, she switched to tapping on my knees in the same alternating pattern. The process continued and went even deeper.

Over three years ago, a Therapist / co-worker / friend was already utilizing a common EMDR sound device with headphones that emitted alternating beeps.

Well, I guess I just stated that you were somehow "wrong", Red...

Why?

I guess I felt somewhat threatened by your presentation. It seemed as though you were saying that your perspective was "correct" and all other's stated before it (including mine) were "wrong".

I wanted to counter your ideas to make myself feel more "right".

Half-@@sed attempt to pull my own covers.



Anyhoooo...

The alternating tapping, movements or sounds have much more function in the process than just creating "diversion". This brain activity (pattern) mimics the brain activity of Rapid Eye Movement during a phase of deep sleep (the time while we dream).

Why is there a need for dreaming?

There has to be at least one purpose.

Why not many purposes?

Perhaps we can entertain the possibility of purposes beyond what Science has so far shown us.

Red:


During the actual process, a person is prompted to identify the feeling of a particular point in time (point of traumatic experience) and to describe with a repetitive statement that feeling or point in time. Like in a dream sequence, the person is brought back to an almost 3-D memory, but has the ability to navigate the experience (somewhat like lucid dreaming).

Mystical?

The way you use the word "Mystical", suggests that perhaps any other perspective than those of what Science has "proven" are wrong.

Eljay, I started another thread on this topic of mind control, cults and religions, because I did not want to disrupt this topic. For anyone interested.

http://mingle2.com/topic/show/167613