I'm so short of time at the moment. This discussion is very interesting adn I'm sorry I can't respond in full right now.

I will get back as soon as I can. Great conversation.

JB - whatever you do for a living, you're wasing your time, you need to write - write science fiction - look at all the great topics you've just posted. I'd read you're books, I enjoy science fiction and with all your ideas, you could string some great stuff together.

I don't know how good a writer I could be, but this stuff I mentioned may not be "science fiction." There could be ruthless people and "mad scientists" working on these things as we speak.

(It is in the universal mind, and if it is there, it can easily be manifesting in reality somewhere. I've heard stories... I know some locations.. )

But...If I were to investigate my leads into these stories I may get in over my head and poof! disappear off the face of the earth.

I like to write in first person so I would have to actually investigate and write my story in journal form. (I don't think I'm brave enough to try to break into a secret underground black operation laboratory, ..if I even could..)

(Have you ever read Brahm Stoker's Dracula? That's the scariest book ever written. It was written in the form of a journal. A fiction, but it is almost believable. I wore a necklace of garlic all the while I was reading it. )

I was approached by a guy in Colorado Springs who claimed "they" had put a tracking bug in his teeth, and I thought the guy was just nuts. I called the local police and mentioned this guy and they descended on him like a swat team. I never saw him again. Then, I was tailed by a private Investigator for two weeks and my phone was bugged. Someone was calling my answering machine and playing back my messages. (This was back in the day when people had answering machines.)

Lots of weird stuff going on in Colorado Springs back then. Cattle mutilations going on everywhere. A water buffalo was mutilated in the Colorado Springs Zoo. (And that place is locked up at night.)

I don't want to write science fiction. I want to write about what is really happening but I'm afraid to find out. LOL.

DID YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A LOPSIDED PINEAL GLAND?

Well, probably you do have one, and it's unfortunate because lopsided Pineal
Glands have perverted the Free Spirit of Man, and subverted Life into a
frustrating, unhappy and hopeless mess.

Fortunately, you have before you a handbook that will show you how to
discover your salvation through ERIS, THE GODDESS OF CONFUSION. It will
advise you how to balance your Pineal Gland and reach spiritual
Illumination. And it will teach you how to turn your miserable mess into a
beautiful, joyful, and splendid one.

POEE is a bridge from
PISCES to AQUARIUS

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tilt/principia/body.html

Red,

Here is a link to a story I wrote in first person involving my investigation into stories of concentrations camps being prepared for use in the United States. One of the camps listed on the Internet was very near where I lived so I decided to go see for myself it this camp was being renovated.

The story is called:
"Gloria's excellent adventure" It's funny. If you go to the link it comes with pictures.

________________________________________________________

http://www.springfieldcolorado.com/ccamp.html

________________________________________________________


Gloria's Excellent Adventure

(Or a day in the life of a whacked out, alien-hunting conspiracy theorist. )

Earth Date: May 2, 2003:

This morning, as we prepared for the trip to the (hopefully historical) Prowers County Concentration Camp by filling up with gas at Loaf n Jug, I noticed that today the sky was covered with a mass of grey clouds. Yesterday at this same time the sky had been blue and at least six large chem-trail X's had been in the sky overhead.

That was more than I had ever seen at one time in the sky. I took some pictures of them, but I could only get two X's in the camera frame. (I had read that chem-trails only occur over large cities but I can attest to the fact that this is not true.)

I don't know what the big deal is about chem-trails, or what they really are, but being a conspiracy theorist fan, I have to assume that they are some type of government plot to reduce the population of the world. I may get into the study of chem-trails later, but now I am too damn busy chasing aliens, so if you want to know more about them, I suggest you do a search on the Internet and I am sure you will find sufficient information and misinformation to frustrate you. The main thing I remember reading about them is that there are two types of airplane trails in the sky, the short ones are from commercial jets and they do not remain there for 15 minutes like the chem-trails do. That's how you can tell them apart.

(Note: Just to be on the safe side, I take a heavy metal detox tablet to counteract the toxic metal pollution they are putting in the air, and I zap with Dr. Hulda Clark's zapper to destroy harmful germs and viruses.)

Enough about chem-trails, our mission today was to determine rather or not the secret shadow government is renovating an old WWII concentration camp located in Prowers county for possible future use.

I brought along with me, my 77 year old mother for protection. (Because when I get scared, I tend to scream "I want my mommy!" ) Seriously, since she had visted the camp during world war II, and knew what it looked like back then, I thought perhaps she could tell me how much renovation or changes had been done, if any. --(Okay, truthfully, her car has a working air conditioner, she was paying for the gas, and she knew how to find the place. --Well, I promised I would be honest in this report.)

Anyway, today, surrounded by gray and very gloomy skies, I thought the weather was perfect for a visit to a concentration camp. -- (And what classic gloomy pictures I might get.)

Results of the trip:

The results: We completed the expedition and were back home about 3:30 PM. I am happy, and quite relieved to report that we found no sinister goings on or renovating of this camp. We found no tall fences, no barbed wire, no guards, no black helicopters, and very little evidence of tourists. There were many foundations where buildings had been which had been torn down. There were signs posted all around the area explaining what had once been there.

(See pictures.) To the west, was a dump and an an area where some dirt moving had been going on, perhaps an expansion of the Granada city dump, or a sand pit. I could hear the sound of some kind of pump, but I did not go down into the area. To the east were some small living quarters (left over from the camp) which were still standing and they appeared to be occupied by a few non-English speaking Mexican farm workers. The only internments (prisoners) in the camp were some cows, a bull and many young calves. In the center of the camp was a small horse arena where a local horse club practiced barrel racing, or whatever else they do in those events.

After a very extensive drive about, and picture taking session, I found a suitable spot to stop and answer nature's call behind a bush. On returning to the car, I tripped over a tree root and fell into the mud on all fours. With my pants and hands caked in mud, I now looked as if I had been crawling about in a pig pen. I got back to the car where my mother patiently waited, and said, "Let's go to McDonalds."

©2002 Gloria Jean

http://www.springfieldcolorado.com/ccamp.html

Robert Heinlein wrote a book ("The Day After Tomorrow") where a "paranormal research project" was undertaken with funding comparable to the physical sciences. I don't think I could improve on his proposed overall approach which was basically "start going in all directions simultaneously and shift focus to those things that show promise as you go".

I realized I never actually answered these, so here goes.

What existed before the intelligence created all that exists?Maybe the best way to answer that is by comparing it to the Big Bang theory. As I understand it, there is no “before the BB” because there was no time at that point. Time was created by the BB.

And if such an intelligence exists, why only two possible realms, why not more?Well, there aren’t really two “separate realms”. There is only one “realm” – the physical universe.

Then come the questions of why?For something to do, or “a game to play”

What other realms could there be?Ummmmm…. I guess there could be any other realm that the intelligence(s) decided it/they wanted to create. No reason why there couldn’t be multiple games going on simultaneously on different playing fields.

And on and on. Bring it!

We created "time"

Well...

We defined it.

Wow, very enlightened post...this thread has some great authors, great ideas. You really expressed those ideas so eloquently and so simply! Love that. They should name a religion from that concept, leaving out all the dogma and just focusing on that one beautiful thought. Wow, I never expected to go on a dating site and see so many wonderful remarks! Nice surprise.

By the way, has anyone read Edgar Cayce? He has some great stuff regarding the subconscious, or higher self.

Red said:Sky said:
After some ruminating on the subject, I think I can explain my viewpoint on the "dualistic" issue a little better now.

I would say that “the dualistic nature of the human” is a misrepresentation. Now of course you’re going to say that I’ve been talking about a “spiritual side” to life all along so how can I contradict myself like that?

Let’s consider “the human body”. It can be separated out into various “parts” – muscles, bones, skin, internal organs, etc. Each one of these individual parts is not “the person”. And if you remove one of the parts (e.g. the appendix), “the person” still exists. And if you replace one of the parts (e.g. a heart transplant) “the person” doesn’t get replaced by a different person.

This demonstrates my basic problem with the physical sciences as regards “life”. There are only two assumptions that can be made:
1) There is some “magic formula” of chemicals that when combined in a certain way, then poof, a “new person” suddenly and magically comes into being. (This one sounds suspiciously like the Alchemists belief in how lead could be turned into gold.)
2) That the concept of “individual person” is nothing but a delusion and all is random chaos. (No sense in even considering this one, since it is, by its own definition, entirely without meaning or purpose.)

So how about if we just take things at face value? A hair that is cut from the head and is now lying on the barbershop (or beauty salon) floor is no different, intrinsically, from a hair that is still connected to the head, or a fingernail, or a toe, or the liver, or the heart, or the prefrontal lobe, or the medulla oblongata, or a single neuron. They are all simply “pieces of matter”.

Basically, there is no “magic formula” that will poof a new person into existence, because “person” is not physical.

If we take our little submarine analogy, the man/submariner could grind the submarine up into small enough particles that it would evenly disperse or dissolve throughout the entire ocean, where it might become food for some creatures and building materials for other creatures. And some of it might even be used in the construction of another submarine for another submariner. So those particles are not, nor were they ever “part of the submariner”. They are and always were “part of the ocean”. (And yes, of course the analogy breaks down when trying to use two different physical things to represent one physical thing and one non-physical thing. But ya gotta cut me a little slack here. )

So to me, there is really no “dualistic nature of human”. There is “the ocean”, which is what the submarine is composed of, and there is “the submariner”, who is totally and completely independent of the ocean and anything in it.

The key point to the analogy is that "submarine" is part of "ocean" not part of "submariner".

Now of course, all of that leads to a whole boatload of questions regarding the mechanics of the relationship between "ocean/submarine" and "submariner" (e.g. How is it that the submariner can "interface" with the submarine at all if he's not "part of the ocean"?)

Well in my theory, the answers to those things are considerably less "strange and unnatural appearing" than some of the concepts of Quantum Mechanics. (e.g. Time running backwards? The same thing being in two places at once? The same thing being two different things at once???)

But this post was only intended to cover the "dualistic" issue, so all that will have to be covered elsewhere.

Yes, there are quite a few extremely bright and articulate people in this forum. And there are some others that are .... well .... not so much.

Welcome and jump in!

I Haven't read him, but I think there are a few people here who have.

Splendid said:Exactly! Just like we defined the coordinate system we call "latitude and longitutde". And just like we defined the symbol system we call "mathematics". And just like we've defined every other "territory-to-map symbolic representation system" ever devised. It's our own creation.

If:

Ocean/Submarine = The Physical "Realm" -> Planet/Human Body

Submariner = Continuous Memory Stream -> Being/Spirit/Soul

If the "Submariner" is of a continuous memory stream, is it perhaps possible that "it" could be in two places at once... somehow connecting the "Physical" and "Non-Physical"?

First of all, I don't equate "memory stream" with "being/spirit". To me, "memory stream" is like the tape in a movie camera. The tape and the things recorded on it are possessions of the submariner, not "equal to" the submariner. He simply carries the camera around with him, continuously recording what is going on around him, whether he is inside or outside of the submarine.

But I think you’re intention was to address the mechanics of the “interface” between the “non-physical submariner” and the “physical submarine”. So I guess I’ll have to go there too.

In my theory, the fundamental concept underlying everything that has to do with that interface is “decision”.

But let’s back that up and start from something a little more tangible.

You’re sitting on the couch. You think “Gee I’d like a beer.” (Or glass of wine, or banana split, or whatever.) And then you think “Should I get up and do something about that or not?” And then you think “Yes I should.” So you get up and do it.

Now before that decision was made, there was no change in the physical universe. There was only a motionless lump of “biological” matter. That lump of biological matter did not move until after the decision was made. Had the decision been “No, I shouldn’t” then the lump of biological matter would not have moved.

[This might be countered with a statement like “But the decision itself was a result of some chemical (i.e. ‘physical’) reaction”. But that only leads to the pure materialistic conclusion. So it’s not relevant to this discussion]

Now of course that’s a very gross example. But by the same token, “sitting up” is a very gross statement when considering how many atoms and molecules are actually changing location in space.

So let’s go back to what the submariner actually does to make his submarine move. He doesn’t push every single atom in the submarine individually. He moves one tiny lever on the control panel a fraction of an inch. But that lever is connected to a HUGE amount of machinery and electronics. And it is that machinery and electronics that causes “the whole submarine” to move.

Now remember that all that machinery and electronics (i.e. “the submarine”) is completely stimulus-response. It cannot “originate” its own actions. Its operation can only be changed by either some automatic mechanism built into itself or the ocean, or by input from the submariner. And just like you do not move off the couch until after the decision is made (or an earthquake dumps you off), the motion of the submarine does not change until after there is input from the submariner (or a whale pushes it off course).

So, simply put, the way the non-physical effects changes in the physical, is by deciding that the physical will change. (And right about here is where the manure usually hits the ventilator. I’ll try and clean it up in another post – if anyone is interested.)

Oh my goodness - I'm so far behind. So much I NEED to respond to before it's TOO much.

Little stuff first - JB, thanks for they link and I'll get to your story tomorrow. Looking forward to it.

Gem - Great fan of Edgar Cayce. I think I've read everything he ever wrote or was written about him. His life is certainly enigmatic.

Looking into the Cayce phenomenon, and Cayce the person,is part of the reason why I began to wonder about a space/time dimension.

Sky - question for you - space/time - think about it. Could space/time be a 'non-physical' deimension? If so, maybe it IS ruled by laws of nature, so fundamentally different than our own that we wouldn't even comprehend how to look for such laws. YOU THINK?

Wouldn't that fit in with part of what you were saying about differences in the universal laws between various ... mm .. oh let's say, dimensions!?

But if other dimensions can be PART of a universal whole, then, just like your visual of the man, in the sub, in the water - all dimensions, all physical & non-physical all belong to the same nature - that which is OUR universe. Correct?

So what if some laws have priority over other - like the laws that govern, space/time? What if time/space has some weird ability to flux in and out of the space WE occupy at any given moment?

Keep thinking with me. So what if there are certain, naturally occuring, parallels between dimensions. Let's say a man like Cayce happens to be living a life so perfectly (yet randomly) parallel to that of a particular space/time (something) frequency, wave lenght, whatever.

Imagine the non-physical space/time occupying, in fact, interacting with the 'non-physical' mental activities of the physical being with it occupies the same space?

Voila - ability to see beyond the present. Maybe not understand it, maybe not believe it, or maybe to be so caught up in it, as to embellish it, make it something engraciating to the "person" who has experienced it.

Now, Caycee was a modest man, and didn't even believe in most of the stuff he spoke about while in trance. He never charged for his sevices. (not that there was NEVER payment, but there was no charge.) He had no reason to embellish what was happening to him.

This is the reason, I enjoyed researching his case. His life, and all that transpired around him is worth studying from many scientific perspectives. Unfortunately, there is not way create experiments, only imaginings.

So Sky, what do you think about space/time being a non-physical dimension?

I gotta go, running late. Hope to get back tomorrow.

Memory stream is simply the "being's" uninterrupted / recorded experience (whether remembered in the "physical" or not).

Hey... "Destiny" might suggest that the "footage" was prerecorded.

****************************************************

Ultimately, the root of All propulsion is decision.

Hmmmm...

Who's decision?

The decision can be made by the individual's "supreme knowing" or seen as being made by "God".

OR

The collective supreme knowing of ALL individuals combined.

[Definitions needed for “dimension”, “space/time” and “nature”.] I see all three of those as being effectively synonymous. “Dimension” is synonymous with “universe”, meaning it is composed of something equivalent to our matter/energy/space/time. “Space/time” would be a subset of “universe” in that it is only the “space/time” portion without the “matter/energy”. “Nature” is just another word for “the collective cause-and-effect relationships of everything in the universe.”

There is a tendency to think of “physical” and “non-physical” as different “dimensions” or “universes” – probably because they both contain the tem “physical” – which implies matter, energy, space and time. I get the feeling that some people think of the physical and the non-physical as being separated by some sort of “barrier” which needs to be “crossed” in order to get from one to the other. To me, that’s a complete fallacy. Look at it this way – if there are different “dimensions”, what is the “medium” that separates (or “contains” or “is between”) them?

In order for the “multi-dimensional cosmology” postulate to work, there must be a “dimensional hierarchy” (sub-dimensions within super-dimensions), which leads inevitably to the “infinite super-dimensions, each with infinite sub-dimensions” premise, which is really just a “multi-dimensional materialism” and as such is just as free of purpose or meaning.

I think the root of the fallacy is the difficulty in conceiving of something that is truly non-physical. Non-physical means doesn’t have any “mass” or “energy” or “wavelength” or “location” or “size” or “duration”. Those are all “physical” things, which, by definition, the non-physical is not bound by. But (and here’s a key point), neither does that mean that the non-physical cannot emulate those things, because again, it is not bound by physical laws.

So I want to stress that there is no “separation” between the physical and non-physical any more than there is a “separation” between the submariner and the submarine/ocean. The physical and non-physical are not “separated by” something, they are simply “different” in that one is dependent upon things like thermodynamics and relativity and the other is not.

From that perspective, I would say that your statement “all physical & non-physical all belong to the same nature - that which is OUR universe.” is absolutely correct – provided that “nature”/“OUR universe” includes the matter/energy/space/time independent, non-physical entities, as well as the matter/energy/space/time of the physical universe.

I am thinking of “space/time” as being “the ocean” and “we” as being the “submariners”. So within that context, if we “have location” (i.e. “occupy space”) at all, it is relative to the space of the physical universe.

Now the theory postulates that the basic “Why” is “To play a game” which provides its own built-in analogy. The “Playing Field” is the “Ocean” in the submariner analogy, which is what our science calls The Physical Universe”.

So from that perspective, there is no reason why there couldn’t be multiple games going on simultaneously. And a player in one game could stop playing that game and go play in another game. But there is really no reason for there to be any interaction between the different games, simply because they are “different games”. (“They’re all part of a larger game” just leads back to the “multi-dimensional materialism” dead-end.)

See answer to that above.



I’d like to address the Cayce phenomenon.

From what I gather, he goes into a trancelike state, during which there is some information being imparted that doesn’t appear to come from his personal experience. There are a few different theories, within my own grand theory, that could cover this.
1) The trance state provides/permits the recall of memories that are occluded during the “alert” state
2) The trance state provides/permits the expression of a whole separate set of evaluations and conclusions that are occluded during the “alert” state
3) The trance state provides/permits Cayce’s “submarine” to be driven by a different submariner.

As to the idea of it being some sort of “inter-dimensional” phenomenon, I think I’ve pretty well covered that in my theory about multiple dimensions/multiple playing fields.

Although “remembered in the physical” is kinda fuzzy for me, I would say that, in general, that’s exactly how I see it.

Well, yes it might. But then that would completely negate the next point – “decision” = “cause”. (Besides being the first step that inevitably leads to the same dead-end as materialism.)

Within the context of “decision = cause” that question can have only one answer “whoever is deciding”.

The best approximation I can come up with as to a correspondence between “supremem knowing” and my own theory, is something like “the original decision to follow a specific set of rules". As such, it is akin to the “decision” that the submarine (not the submariner) would make to move the steering fins when the submariner moves the control lever. It’s simply a stimulus-response mechanism (or effect->effect chain) built into the submarine. It’s not really a “decision”.

Well, if you postulate a god that does that, then you are again taking that first step that leads to the removal of self-determinism from the equation. You don’t get to make the decision because god makes it for you.

Same thing here. It implies that self-determinism is an illusion because the decision is made by another.

What if the catalyst to destiny IS decision.

As the path is ever-changing, so are decisions ever-evolving.

Then again, lack of decision will also create a path.

Would it stand to reason that destiny is NOT as "static" as its seemed?

************************************************************

Couldn't the collective all knowing be analogous to the Ocean Sky speaks of?

************************************************************

What if the individual can unleash the wisdom of the collective ONLY if a decision has first been made by said individual?

Ok, I guess I don't know what you mean by the word "destiny". To me it means "a pre-determined outcome".

So I think we're coming at this whole thing from different premises.

My starting point is "me", from which I extrapolate everything else. It seems like you're wanting to start with "everything else", and then extrapolate "everythng else" (including "yourself") from that.

Now one can use that train of logic, but because it starts with "other-determiism" as a premise, it cannot very well come to any conclusion that incldes "self-determinism".

Your statement of "lack of decision will also create a path" is the perfect example of this. If you do not make a decision, you are not "cause", you are "effect", simply because the "decision" is made by "something other than you" - thus, "other-determinism".

Umm... An analogy of an analogy is streching it a little too thin for me. The only thing I can think of that would work for "collective all knowing" would be something like "the combined knowledge of all the submariners". Remember, the "ocean" is the "physical universe" - which is nothing but a cosmological stimulus-response mechanism. And a stimulus-response mechanism cannot "make decisions". It can only respond to stimuli.

Again I'm hanging up on "the wisdom of the collective". But in any case, if you accept that "decision = cause" then "the wisdom of the collective" is immaterial. The decision is the cause. What happens after that is effect. So in that sense I guess whatever "the wisdom of the collective" is, it could be made available via the decision that it is/will be available.