Found in Wikipedia: (Non-biased encyclopedia)


Please take note where there are stars!***

Evolution/

Biological evolution is the change in a population's inherited traits
from generation to generation. These traits are encoded as genes that
are copied and passed on to offspring during reproduction. Mutations and
other random changes in these genes can produce new or altered traits,
resulting in inheritable differences (genetic variation) between
organisms. Evolution occurs when these differences become more common or
rare in a population. This happens randomly through genetic drift, and
based on the reproductive value of traits through natural selection.

Natural selection occurs because organisms with traits that help them
survive and reproduce tend to have more offspring. In doing so, they
will pass more copies of their inheritable traits on to the next
generation. This tends to cause advantageous traits to become more
common in each generation, while disadvantageous ones become rarer. Over
time, this process can result in varied adaptations to environmental
conditions. As differences in and between populations accumulate,
***species may split into new species***. ***The similarities between
organisms suggest that all known species are descended from a single
ancestral species through this process of gradual divergence.***

I have to throw in my 2-cents here, lol! I believe in
creationism...look at everything in nature and the universe! It is not
just some random happenstance that all this came about.

Now, I am not saying the other stuff did not happen because as anyone
who has read the Bible can tell you, nowhere in the Bible did God get
specific in how He created everything. He says for example: "Let there
be light". Does he say how He made that light? No...He does not. But
He does say in another part of the Bible that his ways are not our ways
and that could be applied here as well, no?

Nor does it say anything about how long it took Him. Yes it says
"7-days" but who is to say how long those days were? They could have
been thousands if not millions of years...

I'm just glad to be here no matter how God did it...I am just so very
blessed that He did!

JMHO

Just my point, Katie! God could have done all this in so many different
ways... But it is not random happenstance, that I do know

Here is my thoughts...(and it is mine, and not right nor wrong)


In my religion I belive in God. I believe in heaven & hell. I also
believe God made us to adapt/evolve/survive. I have had discussions with
those who believe evolution DOES NOT EXIST. To me it is common
knowledge, it does exist. Infact, it has happened this generation with
the pepper moth evolving before our very own eyes.

Well to save alot of time...I will say this, and it can be applied to
many topics involving science vs. the bible. I believe the bible. I do
not take it word for word, but rather interpet to my modern day life.
The bible itself was written years upon years ago, and before it was
written..."the good word" was passed from person to person. It has been
passed amoung generations, then translated from lanuage to lanuage. We
know that shakespearian written words do not have the same meaning as
they do today. The definition for many ancient writings have changed
too, or have become non-existant so the original word of God was
substituted for an english word.


My main point is... science is around us, we must embrace it. Life is a
science, life is a miracle, and yes there is someone above us making it
all happen.

Abracadabra,

here’s one just for you.
(not forbidden, but not recommended for ‘hard-core’ creationists)

At the age of 11, just before ‘classical college’, the nuns started
teaching a bit of Latin and Greek to prepare us for things to come at
the ‘big school’.

For each latin or greek class period, the nun gave one student the
opportunity to ask for the origin: etymology as they insisted we called
it, of his favorite word. Mine was ‘abracadabra’.

Well it’s been somewhere with me ever since, and was instrumental
somehow in shaping what I was to become in life. The nun was surprised
herself with the meaning (she was a ‘liberated’ nun: capable of
objectivity vs strictly dogma).

Anyhow, in a nutshell, Abracadabra as such, appeared in the
middle-ages and was ‘forged’ by Gnostics (if you’re reading this
‘Red.!!!’). It’s origins are from the Greek word ‘Abraxas’: the God
of Gods (not the Santana album), from the seven letters of God in
Hebrew I think (also 7 sins, 7 days, 7 planets, 7 archangels and a bunch
of other sevens!!!).
There’s more. In line with Greek numerology, the 7 letters of ABRAXAS
(origin of Abracadabra) add up to 365, thus symbolizing all of creation
through this intrinsic ‘knowledge’ in all of us (Gnostic Christian
view!).

Imagine for a second, this 11 year old, whom just thought this word was
funny at the time, realizing all of a sudden, that ‘his’ word,
Abracadabra, in a mythical sense, held all of creation. Didn’t know
what that all meant, but it sure was magical; made me wonder!!!

Now, what I learned at 11 in that classroom, I keep repeating to
ANYONE who’s next to me when the word ‘Abracadabra’ is mentioned. As a
young adult (19-20), I was telling my story to friends at a party
‘with a Magician’. One of my friends was of Armenian origin, and
enhanced my understanding, … and my story.

He told me that in Armenian, the word meant “one who creates as he
speaks!!!”

Pretty great no!!! Abracadabra: ‘All of creation’ (Abraxas), and ‘one
who creates as speaks’ (from Armenian) !!!

But he added that to this day, it was considered as blasphemy to many
mainstream Christians whom believe in a particular ‘creative’ biblical
interpretation where Abracadabra was made to mean: ‘HE (god) created
as HE said’.

Isn’t that interesting: this concept of God within each one of us, on
the one side , vs this ‘God’ outside of us on the other side?!?!?
Simply a different view you say?!!?

Well, the Gnostics were considered ‘heretics’ by the Church for their
‘view’. Eventually they were all ‘hunted down’ and ‘exterminated’
for questioning Church Dogma!!! (Gnostics explored or believed
something different from Church dogma, but never judged much less hunted
down mainstream Christians.)

Well ‘Abra’, however refreshing and freeing it ‘is’ to hear from you
on these ‘special’ posts,
… it would appear that not much has changed since the Gnostics dared
question Church dogma. It still appears to be ‘dangerous’ to some,
to encounter others whom simply dare ‘EXPLORE OUTSIDE OF DOGMA’.

Anyhow, where were we???
Oh yeah, the planets revolve around the earth!!!
What do you mean, THEY DON’T?!?!?
Why would God have made it otherwise!
There are no God’s children living on the sun, are there???
And so that’s proof!!! Ain’t it ???

im so glad i am a founding member of TOOTPU the order of the perpetually
unenlightened.

damn, why i do believe the monkeys are winning this week. go
monkeys.

Suzy wrote:
“I have to throw in my 2-cents here, lol! I believe in
creationism...look at everything in nature and the universe! It is not
just some random happenstance that all this came about.”

I totally agree with you. It’s not just random happenstance. However,
that doesn’t mean that things were preplanned either.

To me it’s like throwing dice. Is throwing dice just random
happenstance? No, it’s not. You might not be able to predict precisely
what number will come up, but you know that it can’t be less than 2 or
more than 12 and it can only be whole numbers in between that. You’re
not going to throw a 3-1/2 for example.

It’s not random. You know what the possibilities are, but at the same
time it does have a random element to it. You don’t know precisely
what’s going to come up, you just now what can’t come up.

This is how I see the universe. The universe didn’t plan ahead of time
to evolve into humans. Humans are just one of them myriad of
possibilities that life could evolve into. On the other, the chemical
elements of the universe (the actual dice so-to-speak) are few in number
and can only combine in so many ways.

Think of it this way. In the currently observable universe, there
appear to be approximately about 100 differnet kinds of atoms. There
are actually a few more than that, but for the purpose of talking about
life evolving the number of relevant atoms is probably quite a bit less
than 100. In fact, almost any life form is going to need to contain
the carbon atom simply because no other atom can form as many different
kinds of bonds as carbon can.

Astronomers have determined that the laws of physics and the proportions
of the elements are pretty homogeneous throughout the whole universe.
If you ask me how I know I can only tell you that if you sincerely
study how they have come to these conclusions I believe that will be
compelled to accept that this is indeed the case. So the entire
observable universe (the part that we can see) is basically a ‘soup’ of
about 100 different kinds of atoms in the same proportions throughout.
These proportions are basically the ‘recipe’ for living things similar
to us to evolve. Every living thing on earth is made of carbon atoms
and ‘designed’ by DNA which is itself made mostly of carbon atoms.

Now look at that number 100. And for the purpose of creating life you
could probably cut that number down to about 25, because a lot of
elements are rare and simply not important to life. So we have a very
few differnet kinds of atoms (faces on the dice).

What about the roll?

Well in the observable universe there are believed to be about 70
sextillion stars.

That’s 70 thousand million million million stars.

In other words, just the observable part of the universe represents 70
thousand million million million rolls of the dice that basically have
less than 100 faces on them (25 faces for all practical purposes).

Our sun (and its solar system including earth) is one of those rolls.

So was it just happenstance that we evolved? No not really. No more
than getting a lucky 7 on a roll of dice figuratively speaking. Yes,
there was a randomness to it, but it wasn’t entirely by entirely by
accident chance. The dice only had certain possibilities when they were
thrown.

So who ‘created’ the dice?

To me, that’s the wrong question.

For me the question isn’t who created the dice, but who *is* the dice?

I don’t see god as being the ‘person’ who threw the dice, but rather I
see god as being the roll.

God is the dice. God is this universe. Both the physical aspect of it
(which is basically the atoms) and the spiritual aspect of it (which is
our very own consciousness).

We are the universe perceiving itself. By chance but not by
happenstance.

To Voileazur:

~~~

I pulled my name out of hat
how happenstance was that?

To learn it means a deity,
the god of gods at that

What’s the probability
of such an event to occur?

God’s ways are quite mysterious
like frankincense and myrrh

~~~

Thank you, Abra You make a lot of sense...my words so
don't come out to say what I mean them to sometimes, lol! You are Katie
clarified it very well! And yes, I do agree with both of
you on this..y'all just put it better than I ever could, lol!

abra... careful.. i do have ample evidence. I HAVE PRESENTED A TINY
FRACTION OF EYE OPENERS. you dont know me. yuo dont undrestand the
depths ito which i studied this issue. were still at the same impass.
evolutionists have never been ablr to accept the FACT that creationism
CAN be proved by the scientific methodology. It does of course take an
open mind, which it turns out i actually have. scientists are assumed to
be open minded, yet they are often persuaded by certain funding
agencies to find a certain solution right out of the gate. talk about
biased. . i have an intimate understanding of both theories, far better
than the layman. thats all im going to tell the evolutionist religious
nuts about my background and beliefs. ive left you all a trail of bread
crumbs to follow. its upo to you now.

Well. Natural selection is all well and good. But *evolution* is
something quite different. The creation of new species via natural
selection. I've little doubt evolution could create divergent races. But
species come with problems.


Problem #1- chromosomes. Chromosomal data is complicated. Adding or
removing a chromosome results in failure as an organism. Without fail,
sterility. Typically death as well.

Chimps have 48 chromosomes. Humans 46. Technically, that makes them
genetically more complex. Obviously not as effective a species, for some
reason. This, in and of itself is not too big an issue. However- the
genetic leap was far too recent.


Dogs have been selectively bred for millenia. And they reproduce far
faster than humans. Technically, dogs should be about a million years
ahead of us in the evolutionary race. Yet they can still comfortably
breed with wolves- their ancestory. And they can defectively breed with
coyotes- a distant cousin of whatever became wolves.


Now. This isn't possible. Although evolution could possibly result in
one or the other- it can't do both. No more than gravity could allow one
item fall twice as far in half the time of another item.


What this means, obviously, is that there's a force that alters
evolution that has nothing to do with natural selection or natural
mutation. That could easily be the Creator pulling strings and sending
the right beings the right ways. And it could also, possibly, be another
undiscovered force that is perfectly natural. Either way, the Theory of
Evolution is incomplete.

Problem #2- evolutionary super-leaps.


Flight is such an example. You see- full wings are a great evolutionary
advantage- flying is obviously helpful.


However, half wings result in death. They slow down a creature, make it
more vulnerable to attack. Not having any upper limbs at all is in fact
preferable to wings. Because at best useless wings are dead weight that
wastes energy keeping alive.


Now, you'll point out the existance of flightless birds. Truth is, most
of those are vestigial. Meaning their species could ONCE fly, but it's
no longer useful and vanished. They'll never "relearn" flight. Period.
What's gone is gone. Eventually they'll all run out of wings entirely.

The one flightless bird that uses "wings" is penguins. Which use them
as flippers for underwater. They have an evolutionary reason to keep
what they have. But they'll never grow flight-capable wings.



Natural selection does *not* move uphill. It flows like water, going
downhill. The path of least resistance. The process of growing wings
would make a consistently worse and worse species, until the one that
could first take flight. Natural selection would NEVER allow this to
happen. Extinction would occure long before.

I hate having these kinds of thoughts,

... but I can't seem to get this otherwise great Led Zeppelin II song
out of my mind when I think of this post!!!

rambill,

You have already proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you don’t
understand what the theory of evolution is all about.

You compare it with the probability of a house being blown together from
random debris.

There is no reason for a house to appear from random debris.

However, there are reasons for atoms to combine together in the ways
that they do.

So you clearly don’t understand the process behind evolution.

Any so-called ‘proof’ that you might believe you have to disprove
evolution will necessarily be bogus because you clearly don’t even
understand what it is that you are trying to disprove.

By your mere comparison of evolution theory with a house being randomly
blown together from debris you have clearly displayed that you don’t
understand the theory of evolution at all.

How can you disprove something that you don’t even understand?

Voil, great piece and great tie in on your Latin topic. And a little
comic relief gives us all leave to take a deep breath. It is histroy
that the gnostics were hunted and exterminated, in fact there is some
historical information that actually ties the beloved JOHN as a leader
in this extermination process. The information indicated that Thomas and
John had always been at odds, because they both interpreted Jeses words
differently. Thomas, in the writing, apparently began to gather and
teach people in these gnostic ways. John sought, not only to destroy
this new, quickly growing religion but to destroy Thomas also.
The story was never given much press, until the Gospels of Thomas were
found.

For anyone interested here is a great link with information about the
Thomas Gospels and the gnostic faith.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhlintro.html

Poet, you make a point that we can only move forward, like a river that
can only flow down stream. Scientist have proven that it would have
been possible for the dead sea to part, though the things that would
have had to occur are not know natural occurances in that part of the
world. Just pointing out that magic, like creation has little to do
with eveolution. Those that want to believe that a being with
intelligence created this universe, began grasping at straws when
science could no longer be denied.

As far as birds with wings that can not fly, you say they never will
because they can not 'return' to the state that allowed them to fly. If
the world changes slow enough and flight is a necessary condition to
their survival, I have no doubt, none, that eveolution WOULD IN FACT
switch back and bring flight back to them. You may well argue that
this could only occur "going forward", however, as with humans, there is
some part of everything we/they ever were, somewhere inside the complex
structure of our being. These dormancies can return, if the change
required to trigger them is slow enough to encourage that change.

Evolution is NOT random. It is natural process. If it is
presupposed that God created, ordained, and providentially guides
natural process then to say that there is no evolution is to be blind to
God's handiwork.
It has been found that the goo in a pond possess many of the same
genes we do, only we use them differently. This makes evolution an even
stronger theory.
As to scientific hoaxes Lucy is NOT a scientific hoax - it is the
ignorant that confuse her with the Piltdown Man which was a hoax.

Actually, no, they don't have the same genes we do. They have the same
basic chemicals.... the four chemical compounds that form all genetic
chains.... but the combinations (aka- genes) are COMPLETELY different.
That's highschool biology. It doesn't change.

Rambil>

Evidence as to the validity of a theory must be presented to the
community so that it can be evaluated.

to be considered valid evidence it must be capable of being duplicated
by others and their data must reach the same or close conclusion as
yours.

If this 'evidence' can not be duplicated then it is not correct and you
must re-evaluate. That is the difference between blind belief and
investigating truth with an open mind.

You know- if you really want to prove evolution as a purely natural
process- explain flight. Explain winged, flying, birds. I said already
that half-wings are evolutionarily detrimental. Evolving (over millions
of years, no less) into full flight would be no different than water
flowing uphill.


If it does happen, it's due to another force that has nothing to do
with ordinary nature. I've little doubt that our Creator would establish
evolution as a method of construction and regulation. A micro-management
program so there wouldn't need to be a Divine Miracle every time the
climate changes a couple degrees or a species wanders somewhere new.