Evolution is a slow change within a species not changing from one
species to another. i.e. hairy man crouched over, bit less hair
standing more upright, lot less hair standing erect. Still same dna.

If god created all things how did he become.

Nothin from nothin leaves nothing.

Nothin plus nothin is still nothin.

For something to exist it must have a frame of reference to exist
within.

AB, thats a perfectly valid use of the term, and your statements
highlight the need for a better definition of terms before and during
the course of a discussion. However, I believe most statements in this
thread are directed towards the 'theory of evolution' which holds that
all species originated from ancestral forms - including a step in which
two subsets of one species change so much as to no longer be able to
interbreed, thus becoming two separate species.

Oh, my bad. I see how you are simply clarifying that evolution theory
(normally) is based on the idea that this is accomplished through
gradual changes.

Yeah, AB- when it comes to your definition of evolution (which most
scientifically focused people call "natural selection)- I fully believe
THAT happens. Only an idiot could discount genetic changes over time.


We're talking about the exceedingly less likely "big brother"- where
all species were created from earlier species that split up. Ad
infinitum back to the first cell that managed to survive dividing in
half (yet another "irreducibly complex" system that is impossible to
occur naturally without a slow developement).

And at one point or another SOMETHING had to come into existence first.

Either God (of some nature or another) did it.

Or, the atheistic theory "first there was Nothing- and then- it blew
up".


At least, in the God case, we also have an explanation for all the
exceedingly, IMPOSSIBLY unlikely things that have allowed for life on
this world. Including the natural laws of the universe. There's no
reason water and carbon had to have the properties they do. And change
any property of either element, and life is instantly impossible.


Plus, God could "create" him/her/itself. An intelligent being of that
power could warp time. Probably require the destruction of the universe
to pull it off, but a thinking mind could get away with it.

The word impossible has been used so much in the past the I tend to view
it with some degree of scepticsim.

It is impossible for the world to be round!
It is impossible for the sun to be the center of the solar system!
It is impossible for Jupiter to have moons!
It is impossible for man to fly! (If we were ment to fly we would have
been created with wings)

History has shown us that those who claim 'Impossible!!!' have been
wrong.

Therefore I must conclude that those who shout 'Impossible!' are short
on sight and long on ego.

No offense intended.

Fair enough, but they only learned those things were possible by
discovering new facts. Evolution, as it's known today, is just not
possible. There's facts missing. Important ones. And without them, the
theory is so incomplete that it's an insult to science to call it a
theory.


Did we come from animals? Probably. Could we call that "evolution"?
Sure, why not. Did it occure like the current Theory of Evolution (note
the caps make it a name or title) describes? No, not even possibly.

tonight the evolutionists r ahead. go evolutionists.

Poet>

We're talking about the exceedingly less likely "big brother"- where all
species were created from earlier species that split up. Ad infinitum
back to the first cell that managed to survive dividing in half (yet
another "irreducibly complex" system that is impossible to occur
naturally without a slow developement).
_______________________________________________________________

I am aware of this concept. I have done experiments with introducing
differing chemicals into seperate solutions with the same composition.
You might be suprised at the strange results.

For a species to jump change to another species and leave no link can be
explained by a simple measured and existing pheonomona... Mutation...
chemical or radiation induced.

you stated that god might have even had to warp time to create
himself.....

Therefore time had to exist for him to warp it.

Therefore a frame of reference must have existed for him to warp that
time within.

Each time you step beyond the box you will find a bigger box.

Its called infinity.

But those types of things don't result in "acceptable" mutations. They
create freaks. Defective, unstable, incapable of breeding. Look at human
mutations. Down's syndrom, hermaphrodites.... the list goes on, and the
results are never positive. And even if you had a stable leap.... it'd
be essentially fatal. Enough genetic changes to constitute a new species
makes you incapable of breeding with the original.


The closest thing we have are genetic fallbacks. Where an ancestor gene
mysteriously activates. But it's only one already in our genetic memory.
Like gills, and webbed fingers. But of course, they're incomplete, and
don't actually work for anything. Plus they're usually fatal to the
infant.


Nothing we have works enough to actually *work*. It might be related to
radiation or chemistry, but it has to be more fine-tuned and less
destructive.

I have a mutation.

It is not noticable except when I take a DNA test.

My family thinks it was caused by the above ground nuclear tests in
utah. I was born in an area the received a lot of fallout. Effected
the livestock for years after the tests.

Although some people think so I am not a 'freak'

It is a viable mutation (99.9% same DNA) and has been passed on to my
offspring.

actually evolutionism doesn't deny the existance of a supreme being! it
actually says something had to give everything a push.

And that's obviously not enough genetic change to constitute you as
another species, is it? I wasn't talking about every little genome
twitch. No organic being is ever free of those. May have been thanks to
bomb testing, may have just been the luck of the draw. But you're not
even in the same class of divergency as what I'm talking about.


I'm talking about complete revisions of entire chunks of the
biochemical code.


And moreso- whatever causes these "leaps" has to be able to affect more
than one member of the species in exactly the same way. Random mutations
don't do that. Because the "new" species needs to be able to breed.
Sometimes- not a problem. Asexual beings don't have this issue. But for
anything from fish and amphibians on up, you need at least two viable
members.


Plus (and this is another biggie)- these leaps are "unique" in an area.
One species will make a sudden jump, and all the species around them
will be appearantly unchanged. Which means it can't be a general
environmental exposure. It has to be species-specific.

Oh- I'm curious- what's the mutation of choice?


And moreso, your conception history. Because this exposure has to
happen to your parents before you're even CONCIEVED, in order for you to
pick up a gene mutation from it. Withing, give or take, three hours of
their exposure.

Who cares...

Its here its been tested. I have the documents.

And perhaps it is not doing something drastic cause it won't (from me).
Perhaps there is another individual out there that has another,
diferent, small mutation, they passed on to their children and just
waiting till the two mutations meet. At which point those combined
mutations will create offspring that 'leaps' beyond what we are now.

No matter how many generations it takes to do that when it happens
historians of the future will point to it and say 'there is evidence
that evolution does not exist cause we can't explain this sudden leap'.

Wow.... you have me on that one. Some genes run double, or even triple
functions. Twitch a blood type here and a kidney function there (or
whatever the combination), and you could get some feature changes that
neither one alone could ever see. Give them time to stabilize, then
spread throughout the population. They'll optimize with other normal
members, and natural selection will run her uncontested course.


You could manage to get considerable jumps. Further than Evolutionary
Theory could explain otherwise. Congradulations, you've got the first
theory ever shared that could explain the "missing link" problems in
evolution.



Now all that remains is the troublesome "irreducibly complex" stuff.
Once that's taken care of, we'll have an evolutionary theory that holds
water. "Sympathetic" mutations notwithstanding, they couldn't create
completely new organs. Much less organelles. Or create a new type of
cell. Or give that new cell type a viable place in the body to do
anything.

But you HAVE filled one grand-canyon sized hole in evolution. We'll see
if it can be done again.

if you two don't stop ill find you both and beat you up???

Sounds fun. We'll meet in the airport where I'll know you couldn't
sneak a weapon. I promise I'll defend myself in a purely protective
manner.

if evolution is the correct path of todays species

who is to say that

God did not create an image of Godself

but being God has to follow the laws that God had set down

(say the laws of natural science)

following these laws the image that was once created

begins changeing because of the things that they bring on themselves by
the behaivior they choose to partake in
thus the environmental and social interactions also change
thus leading to a natural change in the species

is there a way that this could have been lawfully stopped
if it was brought on by the actions of the species to begin with

and who is to say how long it took to make Gods image anyway

it says in a day but how long is a day when a second can be as a day and
a day as a second

maybe it is all just a matter of natural selection

just a thought

but hey what do i know

Poetnartist wrote:
“That's what happens when people run out of good arguments. They insult
the opposing side and then give up.”

No one insulted anyone. Demonstrating that your assertions don’t hold
water is not a personal insult. This is the nature of good debate.
Your claim that no explanation could be given for wings to have evolved
over more than one generation was shown to be invalid. No personal
insult intended.

Your ignorance of a theory does not make it incorrect.

Bl8ant has offered you many answers to your questions by suggesting a
book for beginners....The Structure of Evolutionary Theory, by Jay Gould

So there you go. Read up and your questions will be answered.