You're whole assumption is based on the idea that a person needs 'salvation' in the first place. But that very idea comes from the Bible.

Why should anyone believe that they are at odds with their creator in the first place?

I certainly don't feel that way, and I never have.

That very idea comes from the Bible.



I'm fully aware of what the Bible claims Spider.

I know what the story is supposed to be.

I simply don't believe that it came from a supreme creator. I believe that it came from men's imagination and superstition.

I don't believe that God ever asked anyone to stone sinners to death Spider (yet the Bible claims that God did just that).

I don't believe that God would side with male-chauvanism (yet the Bible claims that God did just that).

I don't believe that God would order people to murder heathens and destory the entire villages where they came from including their women and children (yet the Bible claims that God did just that)

I don't believe that God would tread birth like as if it was a sinful or dirty act (yet that Bible claims that God did just that)

You're focused on sin and salavtion.

But there's a WHOLE LOT more to the mythology than just being saved from personal sin. It's an entire picture of what God is supposed to be like, and I totally do not believe that the picture has any merit whatsoever.

So don't tell me that if I had "really" read the Bible for 40 years I'd be agreeing with you.

I know about the claims of sin and salavtion. But there's a whole lot more to it than that Spider. And those are the parts that can't be true, yet they need to be true for the whole sin and salvation deal to have merit.

It's truly all or nothing. You can't just pick and choose which parts you'd like to believe and which parts you'd like to toss out.

Since when does real life require people to become mindless?

She said she would like to "believe".

I asked her legitamate questions.

Just what is it that she would like to "believe"?

Spider said that the biblical God offers "unconditional" love and thus we shouldn't place any condition on our love for him.

I challenged that lie.

It not true.

The biblical picture of God places MANY conditions on God's love.

If Sororitygurl is going to believe in something. At least allow her to know the TRUTH about it and not be lured into believing mindless lies.

The Biblical God does place conditions on his love.

Maybe she's cool with that.

At least she'll know the TRUTH.

In order to believe in the biblical picture of God she must believe that God told people to stone each other and murder heathens, and so on and so forth.

Maybe she's cool with that.

At least she'll know the TRUTH.

Why would you want to hide the TRUTH from her?

If she's going to believe in something at least give her the courtesy of allowing her to believe in all of its TRUTHS.

Acts 18.26

"And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue : whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."
-------------------------------------------------

That man was Apollos. He is often attributed with writing the book of Hebrews because the writing style is different than Paul's but yet sounds like Pauline doctrine.

Aguila and Priscilla were very close to Paul when no other would, as he, like they, were tentmakers by trade and Paul went with them working and preaching.

Apollos was a student of Paul.

Aquila and Priscilla are notably recorded as mature in the faith of Jesus.

Priscilla is a woman of God to think on.

First, why should be God's fault the misinterpretations men have in the Bible.
We start with the tale of Adam and Eve in Genesis, when the Genesis was written the male supremacy was already there. Is the christians fault? I don't think so.

Second, since the male supremacy was already there when the Genesis started getting together men made God a male.
God cannot be either a male or a female because He is a pure spirit. Sexual differences just come into being when matter is present.
Now since we are on image and likeness of God, that means both man and woman have one portion of the whole nature of God. Thus, we can define God as father and mother at the same time.
then again, is God at fault for the man's misinterpretations? I don't think so.

Now what is christianity's fault is not to realize the value of women on an earlier time.

Do I have to judge christianity or even worst God for mistakes committed by man way before the Genesis was written?
I'd be a fool if I do so. (Please I'm talking about myself here. Don't get offended.)

You don't think that the Bible is the word of God then?

You think men just wrote in their own male chauvanism?

I'm not understanding what you are trying to say.

It seems to me that you're suggesting that the Bible is just the opinions of men then?

But if that's the case then how do you weed out which parts of it are just the opinions of men, and which parts are the opinions of God?

I would love to do that myself. However, if I was going to get into doing that, I would weed out so much that it woudln't be what Christians claim.

I would weed out blood sacrifices. I would weed out the virgin birth and the idea that Jesus was a the sacrificial lamb of God and that he rose from the dead.

Once you get into the business of weeding things out, where do you stop?

The Bible claims that all those male-chauvanistic ideals came from God. They were the laws of God.

Same thing goes with stoning sinners to death (which the Jews were still doing in the days of Jesus according to the New Testament), that supposedly came from God.

As did the commandment to murder heathens and the entire villages that they came from including the women and children.

That was supposedly a directive from God too.

How do you pick and choose what you would like to attribute to God, and what you're rather blame on men?

As far as I'm concerned it's all or nothing. As soon as you get into the business of picking and choosing then you're just designing your own God. You may as well start from scratch and just write your own fairytale.

where is the mumbo jumbo about demonisms in Christianity, abra?

you left out the best part.

slacker.

True, even Jesus was said to have cast out demons from people.

That's certainly a large part of the mumbo jumbo.

In order to believe in the biblical God one must also believe in demons.

I'm just trying to spread the "Word" Wouldee.

It's all in book!

That's ultimately the basis of Christianity is it not?

It's a belief in a book.

What good would it do to believe in Jesus as your 'savior' if you don't also believe the rest of the book's claims concerning why it is that you need to be 'saved', and what it is that you are being saved from?

What sense would it make to claim to believe that Jesus is the sacrificial lamb of God whose blood can wash away your 'sins' if you don't first believe in the God of the Old Testament who demanded blood sacrifices as atonments to pay for sins in first place?

In fact, what does the very term 'sin' even mean without the Old Testament?

You can't take Jesus out of the whole story and claim to believe in him whilst rejecting all the rest of it.

I mean, clearly you can do whatever you want to do. But the question that remains is whether it even makes any sense to try to do that.

Christians love to focus on Jesus and sweep the God of Abraham as far under the carpet as they possibly can. But can the religion really be meaninful in that light?

I think a lot of people would be willing to become Christians if they could deny the whole Old Testament. But then the crucifixion would lose it's meaning. It would be pretty hard to be a blood sacrifice to a God who isn't interested in such things.

All of that comes from the Old Testament.

It's really impossible to focus on Jesus and ignore the God of Abraham. It was the God of Abraham who commanded that thou shalt have no other Gods before him. If Jesus is supposed to be the biblical God, then he would need to be the God of Abraham himself.

Otherwise it ends up being a polytheistic religion. Jesus would be the son of the God of Abraham just like Apollo was the son of Zeus.

Greek mythology all over again.

All the mumbo jumbo is right there in the Bible Wouldee.

All that mumbo jumbo is supposedly the "word of God", Wouldee.

I'm just spreading the word of the Christian God, Wouldee.

It all in his book.

Recorded permanently for all of time.

Surely you don't mind me spreading the word of the Biblical God?

To this day, some orthodox Jewish prayer books have lines in prayers for men like this one:

"Praised be God that he has not created me a gentile. Praised be God that he has not created me a woman."

-Kerry O.

If she wants real life answers she shouldnt really be on here.

This is about as far from real life as you can possibly get.



Again with the word hate.

Do you lot think that if we hate you, your struggle will be more worthwhile?

Try using the words "are indifferent to" instead of hate

Doesnt really have the same extreme connotations, does it.

As I said ... nothing like real life at all

I don't understand why anyone would hate anyone for wanting to believe in a religion.

Christianity certainly has it's romantic appeal.

Many people would love to believe in the romantic side of Christianity. If fact many people do romanticize the religion. I've seen the most romantic paintings of Jesus hanging on the cross. Or romantic pictures of a cross on a cloud with Jesus standing next to it in a pure white robe with his arms spread in a gesture of love.

A lot of people view Christ's "sacrifice" as the ultimate act of love.

What they seem to be oblivious to is the fact that he supposedly died to pay for their sins. What is so romantic about that? That's the most shameful thing I can imagine. There's nothing romantic about the fact that they are responsible for having Jesus nailed to a cross.

Most Christians don't even seem to comprehend that point.

They blame those nasty Roman's for having nailed Jesus to the cross. But that totally misses the point.

When you accept that Jesus was crucified to pay for your sins you need to realize that you are the reason he was nailed to the cross. You can't be blaming it on anyone else, because that misses the whole point to it. He died to pay for your sins!

Any Christian who claims that they would have tried to stop the crucifixion from moving forward had they been there clearly doesn't understand Christianity. To try to stop the crucifixion from happening is the same as rejecting Christ as your savior! You saying, "No! I do not accept having Jesus nailed to a pole to pay for my sins!"

To try to stop the crucifixion would be to thwart God's plan! God sent Jesus to the earth through a virgin birth specifically to be crucified to pay for you sins. Jesus is the sacrificial lamb of God. He is the blood sacrifice to pay for your sins!

To try to stop the crucifixion from happening would be to deny God's plan. It would be the refusal of God's sacrificial lamb. It would be the same as rejecting the sacrifice.

If you expect to accept that Jesus as your sacrificial lamb to pay for your sins, you better be prepared to pick up a sledge hammer and drive those nails in yourself! You are condoning the sacrifice and accepting it to pay for your sins.

I personally don't believe that the story is true. At least not in the sense that it has anything to do with any divine Gods. Some rabbi may have very well be crucified by the Romans, but I'm not buying that it was God's plan to have his own son crucified on a cross as a blood sacrifice unto himself to appease him for the sins of mankind.

I personally think the whole story is one demanded sick picture.

However, let me say this. If the story is true, and our creator truly is appeased by blood sacrifices and was somehow appeased by the act of men nailing his own son to a pole, I can assure you that I want no parts of that God.

If the story of Jesus Christ is true, I refuse to accept the sacrifice on my behalf. I reject God's plan. And I'll gladly accept whatever punishments I might be due for rejecting that demented sick picture. I will not condone on my behalf. If the wages of sin is death, and I'm guilty of sin, then so be it. I'll choose to die before I will condone nailing my creator to a pole for my sake.

So from my point of view it doesn't even make any different whether it's true not. Either way I reject it.

Those are my honest feelings, and my honest stance on the whole picture. This is the honesty that I would have to give to the Biblical God if that God is indeed real. If my honesty isn't good enough for that God then so be it. I will not condone violence as a solution to problems. Sorry, I just don't have it in me to go along with that. If the creator of this universe can only forgive when there is a blood sacrifice then I truly have no desire to live with that creator for all of eternity. Just let me die and get this horrid nightmare be over with please.

In Jesus name I pray. Amen.

Logically understanding faith is actually fairly simplistic. It is the trappings of the world and the desires within us to live life by our own set of rules, values, morals and standards - despite the consequences - that complicate matters.

You bring up trials. I'm sure we could all fill up pages of threads with the numerous times - when faced with a choice - that the wrong one was made. Vowing never again to let it happen. Yet - it does. Why? Because it is our nature to do so. Was there ever a point in time you disobeyed your parents? Ever wonder why? Certainly - if you look back, whatever they told you, was for your "own good" - but by our very nature we are rebelious. We want to do it our own way, and be right. When we are wrong - and come to realize it, we experience a separation. If we disobey our parents, and come to realize it, we have a sense of separation - which translates into feeling "sorry" about it. This is primarily from having what is known as "a conscience". It is what helps us determine what is right and what is wrong. There is little - if any difference between the relationship we have with our parents - and that of God. More often than not - it is these "trials" or "times of poor choices" that separate us from God. More so - from ourselves - because God does not leave or forsake us (that all encoumpasing "us") more often than not - the choice is to leave God, and we make the choice. The bible is not there as a rule book - to limit what you can or cannot do. You may do whatever you wish in life. When God created us - he gave us total control over making our own choices - however, we remain limited by our options. The "shall not's" of scripture are there to inform you ahead of time - that there will be consequences to those actions. Some - more severe than others - some consequences will be immediate, some consequences may never be realized, but their "damage" could easily have a ripple effect that extends into the lives of others without even realizing it. Along with the consequences of any of the actions we do that we determine to be "the wrong choices" comes the fact that we have now separated ourselves from perfection. Having studied religion - you know that the idea of any Deity is one of "perfection".
Certainly it is understood that the God of Christianity is. So - how does one reconcile this loss of perfection? Biblically - the penalty for sin is death. Spiritual death in that it separates us from the Spirit of God. Reconciliation comes only through the sacrifice of blood. Why is this so you ask? I don't know - I didn't make the rules - but I don't have a better idea as to how to reconcile myself for the things I've done wrong in my life - the harm I've done to myself, and to others - by both the things I did, and the things I did not, but should have. Left to my own devices - I reached a point where I don't think i could even recognise when I was doing these things - or not doing them. The idea of reconciling myself to God by my own means became almost laughable to me.
Then - I read the bible - without anyone attempting to describe to me what it says and realized that the reason why Jesus was crucified - was to pay the penalty for the wrong choices that I'd made in my life, in order to reconcile me to God. In my reality - he did that for me.
He would have done that if I were the only one on the planet. Yo see - it wasn't difficult for me to come to the realization that the harm I'd done to others - I did to God as well. all he asked of me - is that I admit to it, and allow Jesus to become my advocate to Him when the time comes to give account for the life that I lived here on earth - and the choices I made.

Having realized what Jesus did for me - my gratitude could not be expressed, or realized in words or actions. It was just understandable.
Having come to this realization, I experienced a complete change in attitide, perspective and realization about my life, my lifestyle, and my purpose for being here. I was "a new man". Previous to this - I was a criminal. Literally.
It is not difficult maintaining this new lifestyle, granted, the trials do not go away - I continue to make wrong choices, and I didn't all of a sudden become - perfect. But I no longer had the burdon of my past holding me down - or back. I still work the same job, I have my talents and knowledge, and experiences intact - in other words, I changed - but I wasn't different, other than attitide. I guess you could say I was more concerned with making the right choices - and less concerned with how I was "rewarded" by them. I discovered that I prefered to do what would be pleasing to a perfect God - who expected perfection from me, because that's what he made me for. And that he promised that I would not be doing this on my own - as a test, but in parnership with the Holy Spirit. Or - God himself. Living my life like this has been real easy. I only wish I'd have asked the questions you are asking now when I was your age! It took me until I was 33 to get it right. And I don't mean to mis-lead here. Life has not been easy for me by any means, just getting up every day and living it is. When I need answers - I ask God to reveal them to me - and He does. Sometimes the answer is a journey, and sometimes it is one full of mistakes - but there has never been a single moment where I called upon him, and did not "get a response".

So - that is how I understand my faith - and through life experience, and the trials and tribulations of it, I understand it, and maintain it. It has been about 10 years since I worried about anything. There's never been reason to.

So - that's my story. And as to woman, and how they are treated in the bible. My bible tells me to treat my wife as Christ treats the church. That tells me that I should put my wife above everything in my life - except my Lord. Could I possibly treat a woman any better if I do this?
To me - woman are second to God. It is this way for every Christian. The order is God - wife (woman) - self. That is what I have determined by my extensive exegesis on the topic of woman.
I can't speak for what anyone else percieves the scriptures to say.

Hope this gives you some sense of what you were looking for in the way of responses to your OP.

lj

awwww.... abra!!!

you are no fun any more.

But your mind is as clear as glass right now.

you know full well I was going to hook you to pharisaical hypocrisy for CLAIMING LIKE THEY DID THAT JESUS WAS A DEMON CASTING OUT DEMONS.

aT LEAST YOU'VE LEARNED SOMETHING.

sweet.

I just speak to the issue of what's actually in the book.

I don't make stuff up.

I'm pretty sure that the book states that Jesus cast demons out of some people. That's the only issue I spoke to. All I'm saying it that to believe in the story of Jesus you must also believe in evil demons because they are part of the story.



I make no assumptions beyond that.

it seems that before leaving christianity you were brought up within a fundie context that you have not been able to freed yourself of.

If you found an error in a text book for class, would you continue to believe everything in it without question?

I see the bigotry in the bible, and it makes me question ever line.

I have found good things, I have found things I strongly disagree with and everyone today seems to as well . . . . (unless they accept the label of bigot and misogynist)

I think it does come down to what do you want to believe in.

What can you believe in?

I cant believe that we are tested on blind faith then cast away for eternity.

I can believe that there is an interconnected "force" "spirit" what have you that unifies all things.

Break it down to its smallest peices then build it back up the Descartes style.

PS I don't hate you for wanting to believe, I also want to believe, but the fact is im too good at math. Once god sends down a good "proof" ill check it for consistency.

"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God".
My advice to you would be to investigate the historical accuracies of the Bible. There is a lot of archeolgical evidence that supports much of the Bible, as well as historical evidence. The ten plagues of the Exodus have been recorded by other cultures, including the Egyptians. Evidence of crucifixion has also been un-earhted(heel bones with holes going thru them at an angle). There is a couple of books that I like to suggest to you. THe first one is titled "The Case for Christ", by Lee Stobel. When he first started writing the book, he was an ardent athiest. Now, he is the Senior Minister of his own Church. The second book is titled "No wonder they call Him the Savior", by Max Lucado.
I am wondering if you were raised Catholic. I have known many Catholics that fell away from the faith. I have alot of pronlems with the heirarchy of the Catholic church. People put too much clout into what the pope says. There is also praying to Mary and the Saints( and by the way, a Saint is anyone that shares the Gospel of Jesus Christ with another person, NOT someone that the pope cannonizes). Neither Mary, nor the Saints, can hear your prayers. Only God can, so pray to Him.
Finally, I know that people that truly know the Lord are changed by Him, for the better. Jesus changes people all the time. Just read the story of Saul of Tarsus. You can find it in the book of Acts. Saul was a very zealous persecutor of the early church, arresting Christians and having them put to death, simply for what they believed. His conversion was amazing. He went on to write 85% of the New Testament. He was evenually put to death himself, for preaching the Gospel.
My question to all unbelievers/skeptics is this- what is holding you back? What do you believe? Why do you believe it? Does what you believe assure you of your salvation? Why do you still feel as though something is lacking? Missing, as it were. Read chapter 53 of the book of Isiah, in the Old Testament. There has only been one person in all of history that Isiah could possibly be talking about. Jesus Christ. No one else could possibly be the subject of that chapter.
Finally, as the Apostle Paul (Saul) wrote in the book of Hebrews, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen".

read more. inform yourself better. make more inquiries in different sources.
and don't follow blindly what the pastor says.
FYI Luther and Calvin prayed to the Virgin and the Saints.
Their only problem was that they questioned the authority of the Pope because of the corruption in which the Church fell in those days.
They did not question the Blessed Virgin and the Saints.
This is fundie tendency which started in the USA in the 19th.
The Fathers of the fundies believed in the intercession of the blessed virgin and the saints as Catholics do.

This is a good idea.

I would advise you further to check out all mythologies for historcial accuracies and archeological evidence. What you will find is that all mythologies are based on some historical events.

Ancient authors were inspired by the events that were going on around them. No one questions that these stories were indeed written by ancient men. No one is claiming that they were made up in Bill Gate's basement in his spare time when he wasn't working on Windows.

The biblical stories most certainly will be associated with real towns, people, and events.

The real question isn't whether or not these stories were sparked by real events. The real question is whether or not the claims of divine intervention have any merit.

I'm pretty sure that you won't find any evidence to support the divine interventions. Like I say, you'll find historical evidence for just about all manmade myths from Greek Mythology to the religions of the Inca's, Aztecs, American Indians and all other religions of the world.

Don't confuse archeological evidence of stories for support of actual divine intervention. That's just not a valid conclusion to jump to. Or to put it another way; if you accept that as support for its divine claims then you'd have to give just about every other mythology and religion on the planet the same support.

So then could you explain to me what your idea of my "real life" is. You certainly don't think I live in your delusions any more than you insist you live outside of mine.

Reference your own reality as "real life". You imply that you are able to judge who gets answers here, and who doesn't. Unless you don't expect your posts to be taken seriously. If so - why bother.