Topic: The Writer's Club
Abracadabra's photo
Thu 06/26/08 12:27 AM
i have never written a novel, but have a deep desire to. My problem has always been, i know the subject, and i would want it historically and geographically, etc., correct and i become overwhelmed with the research that would have to go into it. is this a common issue or am i thinking it out too much?


One easy way to get around history and geography is just to write a pure fantasy. Make up your own names for cities, countries, lands, etc. They you're telling a story that's happening in a completely different world and anything you make up about that world is just fine.

If it helps, you can even think of actually cities on Earth. Like maybe in your mind you're thinking about NYC USA and your characters travel to say, Madrid Spain.

So maybe you can have them go from Enycea to Masaprainia.

Now you have two new cities that no one ever heard of before. Make up your own history and geography from there.

Then no one can call you on it. bigsmile

no photo
Thu 06/26/08 05:16 AM
A wonderful good morning to everyone who loves writing!

Today's Word of The Day: Thursday, June 26

Ominous [om·i·nous] adj. Menacing; threatening: ominous black clouds; ominous scream prior to the shooting.


If you have a short story, poem, or even some lessons on writing then please share your knowledge.

thankyou

John:smile:

Belushi's photo
Thu 06/26/08 05:52 AM
Ominous is a wonderful word.

Dark, seeping, mysterious. Luxuriously dangerous and exotically emotive ...

Good word!

no photo
Thu 06/26/08 08:32 AM

Ominous is a wonderful word.

Dark, seeping, mysterious. Luxuriously dangerous and exotically emotive ...

Good word!


I agree. Keep coming in here! I will post more words.

Also share a poem, story, or even knowledge in writing if you wish.

John

MiamiQ's photo
Thu 06/26/08 09:09 AM
Edited by MiamiQ on Thu 06/26/08 09:16 AM
Hello John, thanks for the encouragement. I don't know if this is on track but its a short story I have had in my head for a long time and wanting to put on paper. You gave me the push I needed.

AND THERE I WAS...

It didn’t seem like an eternity but it must have been. I was aware only of my own presence; formless, without thought or feelings…just…essence and being. I was not standing or walking. I just seemed to be floating in some timeless, dark, spaceless void. Still, it was not frightening and I roamed and explored freely as if I were drawn by some rhythmical energy that flowed on a guided path designed for my essence only.

How long had I been here, from whence had I arrived? There was no sense of time and I was not really coming from or going anywhere. I just was. I continued on with this ‘being’ this motionless motion. I only knew I had arrived because I was not where I had been previously. There were no places yet I could sense that places existed, far and distant places where things were happening. There was no sound, no wind, and no weather just pure silence. If I had a form, I could not describe it perhaps I was just ether, like everything else around me and my consciousness had just melded with some universal existence.

I had no memories, I knew of, nor felt that I missed anyone from before or longed for anyone or anything. It was, however, a sense of goodness within me, a sense of aspiration that must have been towards something? I continued on with this ‘being’.
I did not know hunger, sleepiness or tiredness. I had no needs or desires. I suppose I could have continued this way indefinitely so I just continued to be.

Then…almost as if it had always been there, there was a faint rhythmical, monotone, a collection of sounds like many voices chanting in one universal sound. I paused and strained to grasp it. It was faint but I continued straining harder and harder to float to the source of this sound. I could not find it. I continued on in my motionless, formless traveling never ceasing to aspire to draw nearer to this sound if I could only find it. It was still too faint to discern but it awoke something in me that became a passion, an obsession to find this sound.

Tirelessly, I continued to be, but now my awareness had a mystery goal. What was it, there was something there, and I could sense it. I was supposed to be there. Why hadn’t I ‘heard’ or sensed it before? I must have been in this non-existence for a very long time but truly… I had no way to tell… no sense of time or space. For all I know my being could be as long as a million yojana or an instant, a flicker in an eternal thread. Yet I felt no sadness, nor anxiety, no happiness nor contentment. I just was.

Suddenly, there were booming, rhythmical voices and I was enveloped in a sound large and melodious. Even though I was still some distance away I could tell there was a large assembly of beings (in human form). In one instant, I was alone and in the next I was at this assembly observing from slightly afar. The beings wore shining white robes, the color was not white like cloth, it was blue white,like fluorescent light. The central figure was a huge golden man with shiny,curly black hair. He was a being much much larger than all the others gathered in the assembly. The others were all seated but… they were seated in mid air!! It was as if a huge jeweled tower had arisen out of nowhere at this moment, in this place, for this time alone. There was no room, no halls and there were thousands of beings gathered here in this ceremony in the air for what must have been an auspicious occasion. The central figure carried a large, thick golden rod and began to speak in a booming, glorious voice but there were no words. The assembly and I were silenced in awe of the teachings and the knowledge that came forth. It was as if all the answers, all the truths to be told for time immemorial were being heard in this moment, at this marvelous assembly and “Thus I heard”.

Just as suddenly as I had arrived, I felt a tugging or pulling at my self. I was not yet ready to leave but I could sense that I had made it to a very special ceremony that I was supposed to attend and now it was time to go. As I turned away in the direction of this tugging I felt myself being pulled into a long dark tube. I had no control I could not stop this force that had taken hold of me and was taking me away from the void. Even if I wanted to struggle it was of no avail, wherever this force was taking me I was going.

I was leaving this comfortable place of silence, non-existence, non-expression, non-feeling but for what? Where was I headed? What lay in store for me as I traveled down this long, dark tube? There was a whooshing sound as I traveled and I felt tight constrained. I sensed myself trying to breathe, inhale but I could not. I began to feel myself inside of a body and again felt tight constrained. It was painful; I writhed and struggled to free myself from these walls. It was dark and hot and it must have been fear that enveloped me now. Fear of the unknown gripped me and I was horrified…until...I arrived at the end of the tube and the fear began to subside. The constriction was released but now I felt cold. There were strange lights all around me and in my face I squinted. Foreign subtle clinking noises and many touches and hands were on me. I writhed hard and let out a feral yell that frightened even me. The very next sound I heard was a human voice and the words, “It’s a girl”.

no photo
Thu 06/26/08 09:13 AM

Hello John, thanks for the encouragement. I don't know if this is on track but its a short story I have had in my head for a long time and wanting to put on paper. You gave me the push I needed.

AND THERE I WAS...

It didn’t seem like an eternity but it must have been. I was aware only of my own presence; formless, without thought or feelings…just…essence and being. I was not standing or walking. I just seemed to be floating in some timeless, dark, spaceless void. Still, it was not frightening and I roamed and explored freely as if I were drawn by some rhythmical energy that flowed on a guided path designed for my essence only.

How long had I been here, from whence had I arrived? There was no sense of time and I was not really coming from or going anywhere. I just was. I continued on with this ‘being’ this motionless motion. I only knew I had arrived because I was not where I had been previously. There were no places yet I could sense that places existed, far and distant places where things were happening. There was no sound, no wind, and no weather just pure silence. If I had a form, I could not describe it perhaps I was just ether, like everything else around me and my consciousness had just melded with some universal existence.

I had no memories, I knew of, nor felt that I missed anyone from before or longed for anyone or anything. It was, however, a sense of goodness within me, a sense of aspiration that must have been towards something? I continued on with this ‘being’.
I did not know hunger, sleepiness or tiredness. I had no needs or desires. I suppose I could have continued this way indefinitely so I just continued to be.

Then…almost as if it had always been there, there was a faint rhythmical, monotone, a collection of sounds like many voices chanting in one universal sound. I paused and strained to grasp it. It was faint but I continued straining harder and harder to float to the source of this sound. I could not find it. I continued on in my motionless, formless traveling never ceasing to aspire to draw nearer to this sound if I could only find it. It was still too faint to discern but it awoke something in me that became a passion, an obsession to find this sound.

Tirelessly, I continued to be, but now my awareness had a mystery goal. What was it, there was something there, and I could sense it. I was supposed to be there. Why hadn’t I ‘heard’ or sensed it before? I must have been in this non-existence for a very long time but truly… I had no way to tell… no sense of time or space. For all I know my being could be as long as a million yojana or an instant, a flicker in an eternal thread. Yet I felt no sadness, nor anxiety, no happiness nor contentment. I just was.

Suddenly, there were booming, rhythmical voices and I was enveloped in a sound large and melodious. Even though I was still some distance away I could tell there was a large assembly of beings (in human form). In one instant, I was alone and in the next I was at this assembly observing from slightly afar. The beings wore shining white robes, the color was not white like cloth, it was blue white,like fluorescent light. The central figure was a huge golden man with shiny,curly black hair. He was a being much much larger than all the others gathered in the assembly. The others were all seated but… they were seated in mid air!! It was as if a huge jeweled tower had arisen out of nowhere at this moment, in this place, for this time alone. There was no room, no halls and there were thousands of beings gathered here in this ceremony in the air for what must have been an auspicious occasion. The central figure carried a large, thick golden rod and began to speak in a booming, glorious voice but there were no words. The assembly and I were silenced in awe of the teachings and the knowledge that came forth. It was as if all the answers, all the truths to be told for time immemorial were being heard in this moment, at this marvelous assembly and “Thus I heard”.

Just as suddenly as I had arrived, I felt a tugging or pulling at my self. I was not yet ready to leave but I could sense that I had made it to a very special ceremony that I was supposed to attend and now it was time to go. As I turned away in the direction of this tugging I felt myself being pulled into a long dark tube. I had no control I could not stop this force that had taken hold of me and was taking me away from the void. Even if I wanted to struggle it was of no avail, wherever this force was taking me I was going.

I was leaving this comfortable place of silence, non-existence, non-expression, non-feeling but for what? Where was I headed? What lay in store for me as I traveled down this long, dark tube? There was a whooshing sound as I traveled and I felt tight constrained. I sensed myself trying to breathe, inhale but I could not. I began to feel myself inside of a body and again felt tight constrained. It was painful; I writhed and struggled to free myself from these walls. It was dark and hot and it must have been fear that enveloped me now. Fear of the unknown…until...I arrived at the end of the tube and the fear began to subside. The constriction was released but now I felt cold. There were strange lights all around me and in my face I squinted. Foreign subtle clinking noises and many touches and hands were on me. I writhed hard and let out a feral yell that frightened even me. The very next sound I heard was a human voice and the words, “It’s a girl”.



Wow woman truly are the heroes on our planet. Just the fact of giving birth is heroic and beautiful, yet you describe it in detail. I never read anything like this before. Very impressive and interesting! Bravo!!

Keep writing at all costs!

MiamiQ's photo
Thu 06/26/08 09:19 AM
Thanks John coming from you that's really encouraging. We're our hardest critics and I'm sure you know that.

Abracadabra's photo
Thu 06/26/08 01:55 PM
Edited by Abracadabra on Thu 06/26/08 01:59 PM
MiamiQ wrote:


AND THERE I WAS...

It didn’t seem like an eternity but it must have been. I was aware only of my own presence; formless, without thought or feelings…just…essence and being. ....


That was a great read. drinker

Your description of being in the non-human spirit-like state was very good and certainly something that I can personally identify with as I'm sure most people can.

I've hand many dreams and even daydreams where I've drifted off in my mind to exist in a state similar to what you've describe.

I had a good idea where you were headed to near the end, but as I read I was thinking you're weren't going to have enough room left to say it. But then you did in only three words.

That was cool. smokin


bastet126's photo
Thu 06/26/08 02:44 PM
abra and lex, thank you so much for the feedback! hopefully i will use this to get started and then be able to share more! thanks again! flowerforyou

joshyfox's photo
Thu 06/26/08 06:02 PM
Back on page 8 I posted Background story for my Comic Series (probably) "Aeon", now I'd like to share some Information on a few of the Archs Who will appear in the series more often than others.

- Archs -


Aeon Ichimaru : One of the only Archs with a last name, Aeon is one of the two prototypes for the super-soldier project.His name Ichimaru, means "First Circle" as he was part of the first "cycle" of Archs creates along with Epoch, Aeon's "Brother". Aeon appears as a humanoid version of a nine-tailed Kitsune (Ghost Fox) from Japanese mythology. Spirited away and raised by monks, Aeon grew up naturally instead of force-grown like the other archs and was not given combat programming. Unfortunately, Aeon's natural fighter's instinct is undeniable and despite his best efforts to hide it, he is as much a soldier as the rest of his kind. Choosing to fight for peace along side the last resistance of humanity, Aeon hopes to "save" his Arch Siblings from themselves, though that seems impossible.

Power - Aeon was bred with unnatural strength speed, his reflexes are also unusually quick.

Personal Weapon - After receiving training in stealthy arts, Aeon has chosen twin butterfly knives as his weapons of choice.




Epoch Ichimaru : Aeon's "Brother", Epoch was the other prototype. Appearing as a humanoid nine-tailed Okami (Ghost Wolf) from Japanese Myth, Epoch is naturally more savage and brutal than Aeon. A militant Darwinist, Epoch believes that only the strong thrive and the weak are to be subjugated. This mentality caused Epoch to rebel against his human masters and convince his Arch brethren to do the same. How dare these humans command such gods. What better way to control the humans and keep them from killing each other than to rule over them with an Iron fist. Despite his ambition and animalistic tendencies, Epoch is arguably one of the most Honorable Archs. A constant warrior, Epoch believes a fair fight is the finest test of a true warrior. Is there hope for this proud, yet noble Arch, or must he too beyond "salvation"?

Powers : Epoch has the same powers as Aeon but in different proportion. Epoch is bigger and stronger than Aeon, but also slower than his "Brother".

Personal Weapon : An admirer of of the ancient samurai, Epoch is a master of the Katana. This sword of honorable warriors is a testament to his own beliefs.


(More to come later.)

no photo
Thu 06/26/08 06:27 PM
Edited by Jeanniebean on Thu 06/26/08 06:28 PM
AND THERE I WAS...


Nice story about being born. drinker

I remember my birth a little differently. I was in a ball of light surrounded by friends. I had come there from somewhere but I did not remember where. I knew it was some kind of waiting room. I did not know how long I had been there. It did not seem long. Then someone spoke to me. They said: "Its time."

It was not long before I was in a body all cozy and warm. But then someone started pushing me out of the place I was. I was born into the light world, and it was cold.

How dare they spank me! :angry: That really was not necessary I thought. I was very angry.:angry: sad sad That is all I remember. bigsmile

JB

MiamiQ's photo
Thu 06/26/08 06:39 PM

MiamiQ wrote:


AND THERE I WAS...

It didn’t seem like an eternity but it must have been. I was aware only of my own presence; formless, without thought or feelings…just…essence and being. ....


That was a great read. drinker

Your description of being in the non-human spirit-like state was very good and certainly something that I can personally identify with as I'm sure most people can.

I've hand many dreams and even daydreams where I've drifted off in my mind to exist in a state similar to what you've describe.

I had a good idea where you were headed to near the end, but as I read I was thinking you're weren't going to have enough room left to say it. But then you did in only three words.

That was cool. smokin


Abracadabra thanks for the read and relating. Yes I think thats a very real surreal place we been to before. Appreciate your comments.

MiamiQ's photo
Thu 06/26/08 06:43 PM

AND THERE I WAS...


Nice story about being born. drinker

I remember my birth a little differently. I was in a ball of light surrounded by friends. I had come there from somewhere but I did not remember where. I knew it was some kind of waiting room. I did not know how long I had been there. It did not seem long. Then someone spoke to me. They said: "Its time."

It was not long before I was in a body all cozy and warm. But then someone started pushing me out of the place I was. I was born into the light world, and it was cold.

How dare they spank me! :angry: That really was not necessary I thought. I was very angry.:angry: sad sad That is all I remember. bigsmile

JB

Wow that is so cool, its like the same experience can be defined in so many creative ways.

no photo
Thu 06/26/08 06:57 PM

Back on page 8 I posted Background story for my Comic Series (probably) "Aeon", now I'd like to share some Information on a few of the Archs Who will appear in the series more often than others.

- Archs -


Aeon Ichimaru : One of the only Archs with a last name, Aeon is one of the two prototypes for the super-soldier project.His name Ichimaru, means "First Circle" as he was part of the first "cycle" of Archs creates along with Epoch, Aeon's "Brother". Aeon appears as a humanoid version of a nine-tailed Kitsune (Ghost Fox) from Japanese mythology. Spirited away and raised by monks, Aeon grew up naturally instead of force-grown like the other archs and was not given combat programming. Unfortunately, Aeon's natural fighter's instinct is undeniable and despite his best efforts to hide it, he is as much a soldier as the rest of his kind. Choosing to fight for peace along side the last resistance of humanity, Aeon hopes to "save" his Arch Siblings from themselves, though that seems impossible.

Power - Aeon was bred with unnatural strength speed, his reflexes are also unusually quick.

Personal Weapon - After receiving training in stealthy arts, Aeon has chosen twin butterfly knives as his weapons of choice.




Epoch Ichimaru : Aeon's "Brother", Epoch was the other prototype. Appearing as a humanoid nine-tailed Okami (Ghost Wolf) from Japanese Myth, Epoch is naturally more savage and brutal than Aeon. A militant Darwinist, Epoch believes that only the strong thrive and the weak are to be subjugated. This mentality caused Epoch to rebel against his human masters and convince his Arch brethren to do the same. How dare these humans command such gods. What better way to control the humans and keep them from killing each other than to rule over them with an Iron fist. Despite his ambition and animalistic tendencies, Epoch is arguably one of the most Honorable Archs. A constant warrior, Epoch believes a fair fight is the finest test of a true warrior. Is there hope for this proud, yet noble Arch, or must he too beyond "salvation"?

Powers : Epoch has the same powers as Aeon but in different proportion. Epoch is bigger and stronger than Aeon, but also slower than his "Brother".

Personal Weapon : An admirer of of the ancient samurai, Epoch is a master of the Katana. This sword of honorable warriors is a testament to his own beliefs.


(More to come later.)


Very interesting Josh! More to come later again!!! ugh!! just jokinglaugh laugh I will wait. lol

no photo
Thu 06/26/08 07:00 PM

The only way I can really write is from experience. I like to write from the first person point of view rather than the omnipresent all knowing point of view. I can only write about things I know or have experienced either though real life or through a dream.

I guess I don't have as big of an imagination as I would like to have.

JB

Abracadabra's photo
Thu 06/26/08 08:02 PM
Edited by Abracadabra on Thu 06/26/08 08:49 PM


The only way I can really write is from experience. I like to write from the first person point of view rather than the omnipresent all knowing point of view. I can only write about things I know or have experienced either though real life or through a dream.

I guess I don't have as big of an imagination as I would like to have.

JB


I've been studing the different POVs for the past week. This was something that I wasn't real knowledgeable about. I knew some basic differences but I wasn't aware of the subtleties of how to use them properly.

The 1st Person is clearly when the author is referring to themselves as "I".

But there are several different ways to use the 1st Person pov.

It can be used like MiamiQ used it. She just basically talked about her own experience, but never actually spoke to the reader. That called passive 1st Person.

It can also be used actively in two different ways.

When it is active 1st Person there is also a you involved. However, that "you" can be either the reader, or it can be an other character within the story.

In other words, you can use 1st Person to speak directly to the reader. Or you can use it like as if you telling the story to another person within the story. Both of those would be active 1st Person. Or you can use it without ever referring any "you" in which case it't passive first person.

It's good to know which you are working with so you remain consistent with it.

It also doesn't need to be autobiographical. You could be telling a story about someone else, but you're telling it from your pov as the author. And of course, even when it is autobiographical it doesn't need to be true. In other words, you could be making the whole thing up (i.e. a fictional autobiography)

~~~

There is also a 2nd Person pov.

Writing from the 2nd Person pov is like talking to yourself. You never use the word "I" to refer to yourself. You refer to yourself as you. You just talk to yourself the whole way through the story and the reader knows that you're talking to yourself. This is actually used in some books, but it isn't real popular.

~~~

The 3rd Person pov is used the most often, but there are also various version of this as well. And this is what I needed help with.

There are three 3rd Person povs.

The First 3rd Person pov is 3rd Person Omniscient.

This is the pov of an author who basically tells the story from the point of view of a fly on the wall. The author refers to all the characters as he or she or by their names, and describes what they are like and what they are doing. The characters can still have dialog and talk to each other as well. However the author seldom takes you inside their heads. You're always external to the characters see in them from the authors pov. (like a fly on the wall) There are executions to this that I'll mention them in the third type of 3rd person pov.

Also in this omniscient point of view the author can know anything, past, present, future. For example the author might say, "She is totally unaware of the glowing read eyes that are peering at her from the forest".

Well clearly if she's unaware of it then the author and the reader are the only one's who are aware. :wink:

This is what omniscient means. To know-all. So the author can know everything.

~~~

The Second 3rd Person pov is 3rd Person Limited.

In this pov the author still describes the characters as he or she or by their names. But the author is no longer omniscient. The author only tells the reader what the characters can know. The author also takes the reader inside the heads of the individual characters to view the world from their perspective. This is why it's called limited it's limited to just what that character knows and can experience.

This is actually much more powerful for conveying intimacy. So while it is limited in some sense it's actually much more powerful for getting the readers to feel for the characters.

It's also not restricted to just one character. The author can take you into the mind and pov of any of the characters. However, to do this effectively it's best to take the reader into only one character's pov at a time. It's considered to be very confusing and ineffective if the author is hopping back and forth between the povs of different characters rapidly. In fact they have a term for this. They call it viewpoint wobble.

To use the 3'rd Person Limited effectively it's best to take the reader in to the pov of one character. Do a whole scene from that pov, before backing out and entering the head of another character. Then stick with that character for a while, and so on. So you can hop from one character to another. It's just best to do it methodically and not just randomly jumping around in all your character's heads.

It doesn't mean the other characters can't talk. It just means that you can't say what they are thinking whilst your still in pov of a different one.

I'm totally sold on the pov for my particular novel. I think it precisely what I need to tell my story effectively. In fact, now that I have a good understanding of it I can see where I'll can tell my whole story just form the pov of six characters. They will be many more characters in the novel. But there's no reason to ever take the reader into the pov of those characters.

I learned a lot from having studying these povs in some detail over the past week.

~~~

The Their 3rd Person pov is 3rd Person Limited Omniscient.

This is actually just a combination of the above two. The author will sometimes take you into the head of a character and show you their pov, and sometimes back out and speak as the author. When speaking as the author clearly he or she can speak with omniscience because everyone knows that the author knows everything. laugh

So it is possible to combine Limited with Omniscience. However, once the author speaks directly to the reader the author is visible. That's not necessarily a bad thing at all. Most readers are aware they are being told a story anyway. However, in purely Limitedpov the author is least obtrusive because the author is only describing what the characters can know. So the author's god-like omniscient isn't showing. It's just not needed.

In my own personal story I have no need for omniscience so why use it? Just sticking with what the characters know will work just fine for my story.

So anyway, I hope someone might have found this helpful. It took a lot of time to type in. laugh

no photo
Thu 06/26/08 08:13 PM
Abra,

I know we talked a little about pov before and I just wanted to ask where you got this information to study it?

JB

Abracadabra's photo
Thu 06/26/08 08:38 PM
I have so many windows open on my browser right now I lost you and couldn't find you gain. laugh

Ok here you are,...

First off, I've been researching on the web for some of it and I can't remember all of the sites I've been to.

But I did bookmark the following writer course that I thought was pretty cool to keep handy.

http://www.writesf.com/00_Course_Outline.html

When you to the page link above check out the following.

In part 7 - Language and Style check out,...

Viewpoint
First Person?
Third Person?
Author's Voice
and Style

Also, keep in mind that pov is not the same as style.

Style has more to do with how the story is conveyed. Do you want it to be harsh and quick, or slow and gentle, etc. In other words, if you want your reader to love a character you need to make that character "feel" like a loving person to the reader. If you want your reader to hate a character, you need to make that charcater "feel" yucky to the reader.

Don't just tell them what the characters are like. Make them "feel" for the characters.

become the character when you enter their head (the pov)

Also look at section 8 on the web page I gave - The Seven Deadly Perils of Style. Look at,...

Viewpoint Wobble
and Viewpoint Transistions :wink:

~~~

I'm also reading a very well-organized book by Donna Levin entitled "Get That Novel Written!". She also has a early book called "Get that Novel Started!".

She covers all of these different povs quite well in Chapter 4 of "Get That Novel Written".

She has lots of other good stuff to about plots, and developing characters, etc. Well worth the read. It's a small book and very well organized. She gets right to the point. bigsmile


Abracadabra's photo
Thu 06/26/08 08:45 PM
By the way, if you're looking for books on how to write a novel, check with your local library.

No sense in buying a book you can borrow. bigsmile

Belushi's photo
Thu 06/26/08 09:32 PM
I have made some blog entries about getting here and living here in Dahab, Egypt.

Im not sure they would fit on here, with all the formatting, etc, but if you want to have a read then they are here

www.dunx.net/page3.php

I have others that I have not posted, especially about my times in Thailand and my tale of being incarcerated in a Malaysian jail, but they are also there for those interested in travel-logs