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| Topic: Belief or Betrayal | |
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Thank you. I do believe that which is commonly known as "luck" is actually devine intervention.  But you are very right....it is most commonly known as "luck" Hey, what can I say. I like my rose tinted world. It goes with my complexion.   If you attribute all luck to being miracles, then all you are really doing is denying that any miracles exist at all. Because the whole idea of a 'miracle' is that it is something out of the ordinary.  If the horse that has his odds against him due to poor training and an injury wins the race to the horse with the best odds due to his superior training and health....I would say that would be out of the ordinary - luck - divine intervention. |
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Thank you. I do believe that which is commonly known as "luck" is actually devine intervention. But you are very right....it is most commonly known as "luck" Hey, what can I say. I like my rose tinted world. It goes with my complexion. If you attribute all luck to being miracles, then all you are really doing is denying that any miracles exist at all. Because the whole idea of a 'miracle' is that it is something out of the ordinary. If the horse that has his odds against him due to poor training and an injury wins the race to the horse with the best odds due to his superior training and health....I would say that would be out of the ordinary - luck - divine intervention. miriam webster: 1 a: a force that brings good fortune or adversity b: the events or circumstances that operate for or against an individual as a noun - luck means the above both good and bad - in your scenario cherub - it could be taken as D intervention - but also a combination of good or bad luck also - |
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Now - the choice remains with the individual. If I have love ones who chose not to spend eternity with God in heaven and therefore have chosen to suffer the consequences thereof - you want me to now abandon God because He allowed them their choice? God gives the individual a choice of "either or" which equations to a threat and not a choice ..but that is not the issue...the issue is why would people praise a God as he is torturing their love ones and not speak against it I know you know how to read Funches. What part of "Where does it say God tortures those in hell" do you not understand? well Eljay try reading Matthew 13:41 and 13:42 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 13:42 Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." so Eljay ..unless there is another furnace of fire besides Hell then it sounds like torturing to me ...so are you finish trying to go off the question |
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I would agree with that but remember my belief system allows for 2 opposing forces. Good and Evil Since I also believe that Good ALWAYS triumphs over evil, I would be inclined to believe that Devine force felt it was more necessary for the underdog to win and therefore would have intervined at little cost to the horse with the upper hoof. Then again, it is possible that the Divine force felt that it was in the best interest for the better horse to loose rather than win. Maybe, that Divine force knew that if that horse lost it would be traded to a horse trainer that was more humane and would not pump it full of steroids.
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I would agree with that but remember my belief system allows for 2 opposing forces. Good and Evil Since I also believe that Good ALWAYS triumphs over evil, I would be inclined to believe that Devine force felt it was more necessary for the underdog to win and therefore would have intervined at little cost to the horse with the upper hoof. Then again, it is possible that the Divine force felt that it was in the best interest for the better horse to loose rather than win. Maybe, that Divine force knew that if that horse lost it would be traded to a horse trainer that was more humane and would not pump it full of steroids. i have a problem with god and sports anyway  it amaze's me that two supposed christian teams or ones that pray for god to help and guide them for his glory to win for jesus would even do such a thing? does that mean god looses in one way but wins in another? what's the point? is god going to be for one C team over another? does he really take sides - does he really care at all? hmmmm? i doubt it! mans folly. and then the winning team makes statements like " i would first of all like to give thanks to god for our win" etc., adnauseum, hmmm? funny you never hear the C losers say that after "defeat" huh?
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Well yes and no. I don't think God really cares who wins. I think he cares more about sportsmanship, the wellbeing of the athlete and what is in the athletes heart. I believe that He knows best. He will let the best athlete win unless the thinks that athlete needs to loose. In general life, I think he lets us do what we please and in general does not interfere unless He thinks He needs to. Devine intervention is a discussion all on it's own and really deserves it's own thread. Maybe I will start one at a later date I don't have time to really get into it right now. BUT if someone else wants to start that I will be happy to read and catch up and throw my 2 cents in.
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Now - the choice remains with the individual. If I have love ones who chose not to spend eternity with God in heaven and therefore have chosen to suffer the consequences thereof - you want me to now abandon God because He allowed them their choice? God gives the individual a choice of "either or" which equations to a threat and not a choice ..but that is not the issue...the issue is why would people praise a God as he is torturing their love ones and not speak against it I know you know how to read Funches. What part of "Where does it say God tortures those in hell" do you not understand? well Eljay try reading Matthew 13:41 and 13:42 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 13:42 Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." so Eljay ..unless there is another furnace of fire besides Hell then it sounds like torturing to me ...so are you finish trying to go off the question If you want to do a literal translation..ok here we go... lesson. 40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. The SON OF MAN will send out his ANGELS, and THEY (meaning the ANGELS), will weed out of HIS (meaning SON OF MAN'S)everyTHING (everyTHING not everyONE) that causes sin and all who do evil. Which means if money makes one sin....money will be cast to hell. If porn causes people to sin....Playboy magazines will be cast to hell. |
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Eljay wrote: This thread has nothing to do with people who don't believe the bible. Read Funches post again. For that matter - read mine again, I qualified my response so I wouldn't have to deal with your strawman arguments. That's silly. The whole idea behind Christianity is that the Bible is the correct description of God. It doesn't even make and sense to talk about things such as heaven or hell outside of the biblical context. Eljay wrote: God is in Heaven. For those who do not wish to enter there - God does not admit them. Period. He doesn't "send them anywhere". You have made this assumption. Had you read the book, you'd know otherwise. Again, you say, "Had you read the book!". It's all about what the bible says. You believe in a book. Not in a God. You claim that the book is the word of God. You worship a book! And they you try to claim that it's not about the Bible. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Spider wrote: Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da Well that makes a lot more sense that what you posted before you edited your post. You and Eljay are both trying to pull the same stunt. I tell you guys what the bible says, and then you guys try to say, "But God isn't like that!" But the Bible is what you people claim to believe in. You can't say that God doesn't threaten people who don't believe in him because the Bible most certainly does this. Whatever the Bible says is what the biblical God says, because the whole idea behind it. It's supposed to be the word of God. You can't say, "But God isn't like that!". If say that all you are saying is that you don't believe that the Bible correctly portrays what God is like (i.e. you renounce the very idea that the Bible is the word of God). Oxymoron. As always! For Christians the Bible has to be the word of God. Therefore whatever the Bible says that God is like then that's what God must be like. The Bible clearly threatens non-believers that bad things will happen to them. The Christian God clearly threatens non-believers with violence, and clearly uses tactics of intimidation and fear to try to get people to love him. This must be the case because Christians are claiming that the Bible is the WORD of God. Therefore the Christian God threatens to reject people, and intimidates with fear tactics because this is what the Bible does, and Christians claim that the Bible is the words of God. There's no way out. Christians have no choice but to confess that their God (the Bible) uses methods of intimidation, fear, and threatens to reject people if they don't believe him. Because the Bible tells us so! You guys are hopeless. You'll defend that the book is the word of God until you're blue in the face, whilst simultaneously trying to claim that God isn't like what the Bible says. It's utterly ridiculous. The biblical doctrine trips over its own proclamations and falls flat on its face in the mud. And you guys stand there trying to defend it. For what reason? You've either fallen for the intimidation and you are afraid to renounce it. Or you're lusting for the gift of eternal life it offers and you don't want to miss out on the chance in case it might somehow be miraculously true. Good luck. |
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Eljay wrote: This thread has nothing to do with people who don't believe the bible. Read Funches post again. For that matter - read mine again, I qualified my response so I wouldn't have to deal with your strawman arguments. That's silly. The whole idea behind Christianity is that the Bible is the correct description of God. It doesn't even make and sense to talk about things such as heaven or hell outside of the biblical context. Eljay wrote: God is in Heaven. For those who do not wish to enter there - God does not admit them. Period. He doesn't "send them anywhere". You have made this assumption. Had you read the book, you'd know otherwise. Again, you say, "Had you read the book!". It's all about what the bible says. You believe in a book. Not in a God. You claim that the book is the word of God. You worship a book! And they you try to claim that it's not about the Bible. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Spider wrote: Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da Well that makes a lot more sense that what you posted before you edited your post. You and Eljay are both trying to pull the same stunt. I tell you guys what the bible says, and then you guys try to say, "But God isn't like that!" But the Bible is what you people claim to believe in. You can't say that God doesn't threaten people who don't believe in him because the Bible most certainly does this. Whatever the Bible says is what the biblical God says, because the whole idea behind it. It's supposed to be the word of God. You can't say, "But God isn't like that!". If say that all you are saying is that you don't believe that the Bible correctly portrays what God is like (i.e. you renounce the very idea that the Bible is the word of God). Oxymoron. As always! For Christians the Bible has to be the word of God. Therefore whatever the Bible says that God is like then that's what God must be like. The Bible clearly threatens non-believers that bad things will happen to them. The Christian God clearly threatens non-believers with violence, and clearly uses tactics of intimidation and fear to try to get people to love him. This must be the case because Christians are claiming that the Bible is the WORD of God. Therefore the Christian God threatens to reject people, and intimidates with fear tactics because this is what the Bible does, and Christians claim that the Bible is the words of God. There's no way out. Christians have no choice but to confess that their God (the Bible) uses methods of intimidation, fear, and threatens to reject people if they don't believe him. Because the Bible tells us so! You guys are hopeless. You'll defend that the book is the word of God until you're blue in the face, whilst simultaneously trying to claim that God isn't like what the Bible says. It's utterly ridiculous. The biblical doctrine trips over its own proclamations and falls flat on its face in the mud. And you guys stand there trying to defend it. For what reason? You've either fallen for the intimidation and you are afraid to renounce it. Or you're lusting for the gift of eternal life it offers and you don't want to miss out on the chance in case it might somehow be miraculously true. Good luck. this might be an interesting expieriment abra- if they really feel and believe their book is not necessary to exist and all that is necessary is to believe and have faith, then have them destroy all the unnecessary books - since they are not what they put their faith in - and live "strictly on "faith" and do not share their faith unless asked, do not indoctrinate thier children with thier stories, and eventually see if the world would continue to have "faith without the "book" after all - there was no book "in the beginning" correct? there was only the voice and mind of god correct? so it really should not be necessary for them to continue to "need" the book any longer? after all - if god is god - could he not just show himself and speak as he first did? I personally dont believe christianity or any monotheiastic religion would survive without their "book's" |
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Eljay wrote: This thread has nothing to do with people who don't believe the bible. Read Funches post again. For that matter - read mine again, I qualified my response so I wouldn't have to deal with your strawman arguments. That's silly. The whole idea behind Christianity is that the Bible is the correct description of God. It doesn't even make and sense to talk about things such as heaven or hell outside of the biblical context. Eljay wrote: God is in Heaven. For those who do not wish to enter there - God does not admit them. Period. He doesn't "send them anywhere". You have made this assumption. Had you read the book, you'd know otherwise. Again, you say, "Had you read the book!". It's all about what the bible says. You believe in a book. Not in a God. You claim that the book is the word of God. You worship a book! And they you try to claim that it's not about the Bible. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Spider wrote: Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da Well that makes a lot more sense that what you posted before you edited your post. You and Eljay are both trying to pull the same stunt. I tell you guys what the bible says, and then you guys try to say, "But God isn't like that!" But the Bible is what you people claim to believe in. You can't say that God doesn't threaten people who don't believe in him because the Bible most certainly does this. Whatever the Bible says is what the biblical God says, because the whole idea behind it. It's supposed to be the word of God. You can't say, "But God isn't like that!". If say that all you are saying is that you don't believe that the Bible correctly portrays what God is like (i.e. you renounce the very idea that the Bible is the word of God). Oxymoron. As always! For Christians the Bible has to be the word of God. Therefore whatever the Bible says that God is like then that's what God must be like. The Bible clearly threatens non-believers that bad things will happen to them. The Christian God clearly threatens non-believers with violence, and clearly uses tactics of intimidation and fear to try to get people to love him. This must be the case because Christians are claiming that the Bible is the WORD of God. Therefore the Christian God threatens to reject people, and intimidates with fear tactics because this is what the Bible does, and Christians claim that the Bible is the words of God. There's no way out. Christians have no choice but to confess that their God (the Bible) uses methods of intimidation, fear, and threatens to reject people if they don't believe him. Because the Bible tells us so! You guys are hopeless. You'll defend that the book is the word of God until you're blue in the face, whilst simultaneously trying to claim that God isn't like what the Bible says. It's utterly ridiculous. The biblical doctrine trips over its own proclamations and falls flat on its face in the mud. And you guys stand there trying to defend it. For what reason? You've either fallen for the intimidation and you are afraid to renounce it. Or you're lusting for the gift of eternal life it offers and you don't want to miss out on the chance in case it might somehow be miraculously true. Good luck. this might be an interesting expieriment abra- if they really feel and believe their book is not necessary to exist and all that is necessary is to believe and have faith, then have them destroy all the unnecessary books - since they are not what they put their faith in - and live "strictly on "faith" and do not share their faith unless asked, do not indoctrinate thier children with thier stories, and eventually see if the world would continue to have "faith without the "book" after all - there was no book "in the beginning" correct? there was only the voice and mind of god correct? so it really should not be necessary for them to continue to "need" the book any longer? after all - if god is god - could he not just show himself and speak as he first did? I personally dont believe christianity or any monotheiastic religion would survive without their "book's" WOOT!! I'm Down with that!! *Grabs his torch* Who's first? |
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Eljay wrote: This thread has nothing to do with people who don't believe the bible. Read Funches post again. For that matter - read mine again, I qualified my response so I wouldn't have to deal with your strawman arguments. That's silly. The whole idea behind Christianity is that the Bible is the correct description of God. It doesn't even make and sense to talk about things such as heaven or hell outside of the biblical context. Eljay wrote: God is in Heaven. For those who do not wish to enter there - God does not admit them. Period. He doesn't "send them anywhere". You have made this assumption. Had you read the book, you'd know otherwise. Again, you say, "Had you read the book!". It's all about what the bible says. You believe in a book. Not in a God. You claim that the book is the word of God. You worship a book! And they you try to claim that it's not about the Bible. You want to have your cake and eat it too. Spider wrote: Musha rain dum-a-doo dum-a-da Well that makes a lot more sense that what you posted before you edited your post. You and Eljay are both trying to pull the same stunt. I tell you guys what the bible says, and then you guys try to say, "But God isn't like that!" But the Bible is what you people claim to believe in. You can't say that God doesn't threaten people who don't believe in him because the Bible most certainly does this. Whatever the Bible says is what the biblical God says, because the whole idea behind it. It's supposed to be the word of God. You can't say, "But God isn't like that!". If say that all you are saying is that you don't believe that the Bible correctly portrays what God is like (i.e. you renounce the very idea that the Bible is the word of God). Oxymoron. As always! For Christians the Bible has to be the word of God. Therefore whatever the Bible says that God is like then that's what God must be like. The Bible clearly threatens non-believers that bad things will happen to them. The Christian God clearly threatens non-believers with violence, and clearly uses tactics of intimidation and fear to try to get people to love him. This must be the case because Christians are claiming that the Bible is the WORD of God. Therefore the Christian God threatens to reject people, and intimidates with fear tactics because this is what the Bible does, and Christians claim that the Bible is the words of God. There's no way out. Christians have no choice but to confess that their God (the Bible) uses methods of intimidation, fear, and threatens to reject people if they don't believe him. Because the Bible tells us so! You guys are hopeless. You'll defend that the book is the word of God until you're blue in the face, whilst simultaneously trying to claim that God isn't like what the Bible says. It's utterly ridiculous. The biblical doctrine trips over its own proclamations and falls flat on its face in the mud. And you guys stand there trying to defend it. For what reason? You've either fallen for the intimidation and you are afraid to renounce it. Or you're lusting for the gift of eternal life it offers and you don't want to miss out on the chance in case it might somehow be miraculously true. Good luck. this might be an interesting expieriment abra- if they really feel and believe their book is not necessary to exist and all that is necessary is to believe and have faith, then have them destroy all the unnecessary books - since they are not what they put their faith in - and live "strictly on "faith" and do not share their faith unless asked, do not indoctrinate thier children with thier stories, and eventually see if the world would continue to have "faith without the "book" after all - there was no book "in the beginning" correct? there was only the voice and mind of god correct? so it really should not be necessary for them to continue to "need" the book any longer? after all - if god is god - could he not just show himself and speak as he first did? I personally dont believe christianity or any monotheiastic religion would survive without their "book's" WOOT!! I'm Down with that!! *Grabs his torch* Who's first?
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I personally dont believe christianity or any monotheiastic religion would survive without their "book's" How could they? It's all about shoving doctrine down people's throats. It's all about demanding that people believe a book. Without the book what do they have? Nothing! They aren't asking people to believe in God, they are asking people to believe in a BOOK! Pure and simple. Christianity doesn't have anything to do with God at all. All it has to do with is the absurd belief that the Bible is the word of God. That's all it is. Nothing more. All Chrisitans are doing is asking people to believe that the Bible is the correct picture of God. And if a person refuses to beleive that then they claim that the person is rejecting "God". It's utterly STUPID.  |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Fri 06/13/08 03:33 PM
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as i've stated before - even though it's not totally correct it makes it's point:
A Einstein: there are only 2 infinite thing's, the universe and ""man's stupidity"", and i'm not sure about the universe." |
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I personally dont believe christianity or any monotheiastic religion would survive without their "book's" How could they? It's all about shoving doctrine down people's throats. It's all about demanding that people believe a book. Without the book what do they have? Nothing! They aren't asking people to believe in God, they are asking people to believe in a BOOK! Pure and simple. Christianity doesn't have anything to do with God at all. All it has to do with is the absurd belief that the Bible is the word of God. That's all it is. Nothing more. All Chrisitans are doing is asking people to believe that the Bible is the correct picture of God. And if a person refuses to beleive that then they claim that the person is rejecting "God". It's utterly STUPID. i'm not rejecting "god" i believe there is a creative force that i choose to call god for discussions sake, it just is not the "bible" god nor a god of any book - "it" just is" |
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Fri 06/13/08 03:55 PM
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i'm not rejecting "god" i believe there is a creative force that i choose to call god for discussions sake, it just is not the "bible" god nor a god of any book - "it" just is" It wouldn't matter if you were a complete atheist. You still wouldn't be "rejecting god". If god hasn't made itself known to you, then how you could be rejecting it by simply not believing that it exists? The only way than anyone can possibly reject a "god" of any kind, would be to first know that the god exists, and then be asked by the god to do something, and finally to reject whatever it is that the god is asking them to do. The whole thing about rejection in the Bible is that the Bible is claiming to be telling people what God expects from them!!! So it ulimately comes down to believing that the Bible speaks for God. So the entire foundation of Christianity, in fact its entire essence, is a belief that the Bible is the word of God. PERIOD. That's all it is. That's all it can be. Christians cannot separate God from the Bible. Because the Bible IS THEIR GOD!. They worship a book. Period amen. |
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Now - the choice remains with the individual. If I have love ones who chose not to spend eternity with God in heaven and therefore have chosen to suffer the consequences thereof - you want me to now abandon God because He allowed them their choice? God gives the individual a choice of "either or" which equations to a threat and not a choice ..but that is not the issue...the issue is why would people praise a God as he is torturing their love ones and not speak against it I know you know how to read Funches. What part of "Where does it say God tortures those in hell" do you not understand? well Eljay try reading Matthew 13:41 and 13:42 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 13:42 Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." so Eljay ..unless there is another furnace of fire besides Hell then it sounds like torturing to me ...so are you finish trying to go off the question If you want to do a literal translation..ok here we go... lesson. 40"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. The SON OF MAN will send out his ANGELS, and THEY (meaning the ANGELS), will weed out of HIS (meaning SON OF MAN'S)everyTHING (everyTHING not everyONE) that causes sin and all who do evil. Which means if money makes one sin....money will be cast to hell. If porn causes people to sin....Playboy magazines will be cast to hell. but "cherub girl" you left out the last part which states "and all who do evil".....doesn't that applies to meaning that people will be cast into the fire in which they will wail and gnash their teeth.....and that means torture ...so now have this shown that Hell is for torturing people |
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as i've stated before - even though it's not totally correct it makes it's point: A Einstein: there are only 2 infinite thing's, the universe and ""man's stupidity"", and i'm not sure about the universe." "Tribo"...Einstein was stupid for making assumptions that the universe is infinite because how would he know and besides he should have realize that the term "infinite" is just a way to describe the vastness of something not that something is actually infinite ... even the bible tells that the universe is not infinite |
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Edited by
tribo
on
Fri 06/13/08 04:16 PM
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as i've stated before - even though it's not totally correct it makes it's point: A Einstein: there are only 2 infinite thing's, the universe and ""man's stupidity"", and i'm not sure about the universe." "Tribo"...Einstein was stupid for making assumptions that the universe is infinite because how would he know and besides he should have realize that the term "infinite" is just a way to describe the vastness of something not that something is actually infinite ... even the bible tells that the universe is not infinite your not seeing the point funch, the point is mans stupidity - it ends with him saying " and i'm not sure about the universe" point is - mans stupidity. besides there are things other than the universe that are infinite even if the universe is not., numbers, colors, are 2. |
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WOW, Your loss of faith is Total, isn't it? Not just in God, but man too!  I lost faith in humanity before I become a teenager. Fifty years of life has only confirmed that I was right.
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your not seeing the point funch, the point is mans stupidity - it ends with him saying " and i'm not sure about the universe" point is - mans stupidity. besides there are things other than the universe that are infinite even if the universe is not., numbers, colors, are 2. "tribo" numbers are just a tool use to measure a reality ..once the reality is measure the number dissapates or freezes or cease to exist ..colors are not infinite because the number of ways it can be mixed can eventually end...it's just the term "infinite" can be applied to describe the seemingly endless numbers of colors ... infinity only exist until you reach the end |
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