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| Topic: Why the cross? | |
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A youth pastor explained to a group of junior highers how Jesus' death enabled God to
forgive each of them. "It's personal," he said. "Jesus didn't just die for people in general. He died for you." When he paused to let the impact of the statement sink in, one seventh-grade girl suddenly blurted out, "So?" That response is representative of how some people think today. We know Jesus died on a cross for us, we just don't see the connection between 2000 years ago and today. What's the cross about? Why did Jesus have to die such a horrible death? First, he died to solve a big problem. All humans have broken God's law (Rom 3:23) and have earned the punishment for that--death (Rom 6:23). But Jesus stepped into the picture 2000 years ago to take that punishment himself. God took the wrath we deserve and poured it out on Jesus on the cross. In some ways, it is beyond human understanding. Jesus took upon himself all of our wrong actions--every mean, dishonest, disgusting thought or action. Second Corinthians 5:21 tells us, "For God made Christ who never sinned to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ. That's the second fact you need to know. Jesus took your place on the cross. Take it personally. How the death of one perfect man pays for the wrong actions of everyone who ever lives is still a mysterty. Still, though we may not understand, it is the only way to peace with God and eternal life. It's fitting that God took the cross of Christ--the single darkest hour in history--and turned it into the way to save all people. That's the kind of God the Bible talks about--a God who loves you so much he would even die on a cross for you. |
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1 cross 3 nails = 4given
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I can’t imagine why anyone would want to traumatize innocent children by laying an unnecessarily guilt trip on them accusing them of being responsible for God being nailed to a pole.
 From my point of view that's just plain sick. And this story has had this terrible effect on many youths. They have later reported as they became adults that they were riddled with unnecessary guilt trips when in fact they never did anything wrong. JMO.  I think it would be much better to teach children about love instead of guilt. 
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love teaches the heart to understand guilt.
like it or not, the conscience must wrestle with that and find peace. My Jesus give the rest to your heart that is troubled.  |
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frankly, I find it extremely morbid and in serious bad taste to be wearing a dead guy around your neck and calling him god...but then again, christianity is a very morbid religion that ritualistically worships a dead god, drinks his blood and eats his flesh as a way to wipe away one's sins
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frankly, I find it extremely morbid and in serious bad taste to be wearing a dead guy around your neck and calling him god...but then again, christianity is a very morbid religion that ritualistically worships a dead god, drinks his blood and eats his flesh as a way to wipe away one's sins Yuck that sounds gross. What religion does this again? |
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symbelmyne wrote: frankly, I find it extremely morbid and in serious bad taste to be wearing a dead guy around your neck and calling him god...but then again, christianity is a very morbid religion that ritualistically worships a dead god, drinks his blood and eats his flesh as a way to wipe away one's sins It really is an extremely gross religion when viewed objectively. It’s no less absurd than anything in Greek Mythology or any of the other ancient religions. It’s all about a bloodthirsty God who is appeased by blood sacrifices to the point where he’s even appeased by watching his own Son be crucified by men. Just so he can forgive those same men their sins? That’s an extremely sadistic picture of a God. This doesn’t make on iota of sense. How people can view such a God as being a “loving” God is beyond me. They seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that this supposedly all-powerful God actually designed the world to be precisely the way it is! Man had no choice in the matter! Wouldee wrote: love teaches the heart to understand guilt. And Christianity teaches that love is all about killing. God loves to kill so much that he’s even appeased by his own gruesome crucifixion. The more gruesome the better!!! What kind of a God would try to teach love via such a gory bloody appeasement? All this teaches is that God isn’t happy unless someone gets nailed to a pole. And if they are innocent of any wrong doing all the better! This is as sadistic as a religion can get. |
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First, he died to solve a big problem. All humans have broken God's law (Rom 3:23) and have earned the punishment for that--death (Rom 6:23). But Jesus stepped into the picture 2000 years ago to take that punishment himself. Specifically, what law is it that all humans have broken, and why is the punishment for that death? JB |
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How the death of one perfect man pays for the wrong actions of everyone who ever lives is still a mystery. This is a mystery that I insist on having an answer to, it is the puzzle that must be solved before any of the Christian religion can make any sense. JB |
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How the death of one perfect man pays for the wrong actions of everyone who ever lives is still a mystery. This is a mystery that I insist on having an answer to, it is the puzzle that must be solved before any of the Christian religion can make any sense. JB There's a lot of misunderstanding around this. To begin with Jesus himself said that he did not come for the righteous but for the sinners. Therefore he did pay for everyone, but just for those who have sinned. The problem comes in, when people interpret things as stupid as masturbation as being a “Sin”. The whole thing falls apart at that point. God create man in the human form and then expects him not to act human???? And then when he does God proclaims that the penalty for this is death???? This is already absurd. But then the idea that God doesn’t even care who dies to pay for these sins is even more absurd. And finally, Jesus didn’t die anyway, he was resurrected to have eternal life. So the check bounced. The whole idea that God could die in the first place was an oxymoron. The penalty couldn’t have been merely the death of the body, because that wouldn’t make any sense. The penalty would have only made sense if the death of the spirit (or soul) was required. But Jesus didn’t die in spirit, therefore the check bounced anyway. No matter who it was supposedly paid to. It’s a nonsensical mythology is what it is. What other conclusion can any sane intelligent person draw? To believe that God is truly this sadistic and demented would require the he himself be a demon. It’s a “have your cake and eat it too” mythology. It can’t be made to make sense. This is why it has to be taken on faith. Because it’s completely absurd. |
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all have sinned and all err in their heart
there is none righteous.....none. NOT ONE get over yourselves. you all fall down miserably in these threads and act like you are better than you are. no one is fooled except those that fool themselves. Pick me apart if you like, it won't change the fact that none of you that think you are above having screwed up have done so perfectly. You haven't, nor have I. But spouting that you are indignant about the truth being reminded you of your own fallability is a lie unto itself. You are an unrepentant liar that suggests that you are anything but fraught with error. And that lie seizes you whole even now. There is none perfect.....NONE. none righteous and anyone that supposes that they are is a liar. No one believes a liar, not even the liar.
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I can’t imagine why anyone would want to traumatize innocent children by laying an unnecessarily guilt trip on them accusing them of being responsible for God being nailed to a pole. From my point of view that's just plain sick. And this story has had this terrible effect on many youths. They have later reported as they became adults that they were riddled with unnecessary guilt trips when in fact they never did anything wrong. JMO. I think it would be much better to teach children about love instead of guilt. Um...the Cross is the way of love. God so loved the world that He sent His only Son...so that ALL would have life & life abundantly. Well actually guilt leads people to seeking forgiveness...and recieve a clear conscience from the sin nature. There is a very healthy perspective here that the carnal mind can't understand. That might be what you are struggling with. It doesn't negate God, who He is or His will & provision for humantiy. For us to know His desire is a neccessity. |
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Personally, as a child I was very uncomfortable with the idea that a man was tortured and hung on a cross for my sins. I did not understand that because I did not even live back in those days.
It was a very confusing story for a young child, and yet I was told this stuff at a very young age. To this day, I still don't understand the meaning of it. I'm still trying to find out. JB |
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all have sinned and all err in their heart there is none righteous.....none. NOT ONE get over yourselves. you all fall down miserably in these threads and act like you are better than you are. no one is fooled except those that fool themselves. Pick me apart if you like, it won't change the fact that none of you that think you are above having screwed up have done so perfectly. You haven't, nor have I. But spouting that you are indignant about the truth being reminded you of your own fallability is a lie unto itself. You are an unrepentant liar that suggests that you are anything but fraught with error. And that lie seizes you whole even now. There is none perfect.....NONE. none righteous and anyone that supposes that they are is a liar. No one believes a liar, not even the liar. I'm wondering, at least to some extent why you feel like the people who question the unquestionable dogma think they are "better than?" And where did any of the posters above (myself included on previous threads) claim perfection, or that we were without human weaknesses. A "loving father" who sends his children to an eternal hell for failing to be perfect and then for failing to accept a "gift." Oh, you have got to be kidding? Who would do this? Would you? Would you send your own child to an eternal damnation for the worst of crimes? If an imperfect father wouldn't---how much more should a perfect father be repulsed by such a notion. This is logic, not dogma. There are people on this planet that I'm not fond of. But never, in my worst moment would I have failed to pull them from a burning car. And these are people I don't much like. Now, you want us to believe that a loving and powerful god, full of mercy and compassion could cast into a lake of eternal fire those for whom he claims the greatest love? I don't think I'm better than you or anyone else. But I also don't think I was born a poor miserable sinner guilty of crimes committed long before I took my first breath. I guess that is the major difference. -Drew |
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Edited by
Jeanniebean
on
Fri 05/02/08 09:30 PM
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all have sinned and all err in their heart there is none righteous.....none. NOT ONE get over yourselves. you all fall down miserably in these threads and act like you are better than you are. no one is fooled except those that fool themselves. Pick me apart if you like, it won't change the fact that none of you that think you are above having screwed up have done so perfectly. You haven't, nor have I. But spouting that you are indignant about the truth being reminded you of your own fallability is a lie unto itself. You are an unrepentant liar that suggests that you are anything but fraught with error. And that lie seizes you whole even now. There is none perfect.....NONE. none righteous and anyone that supposes that they are is a liar. No one believes a liar, not even the liar. So who wants to be perfect? I don't think anyone thinks they are, or claims to be perfect. Where on earth do you get these ideas? JB |
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The ancient symbol of the cross represents the triumph of spiritual reality over material reality
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First, he died to solve a big problem. All humans have broken God's law (Rom 3:23) and have earned the punishment for that--death (Rom 6:23). But Jesus stepped into the picture 2000 years ago to take that punishment himself. Specifically, what law is it that all humans have broken, and why is the punishment for that death? JB The law that the first humans broke was in disobeying God. He gave them all of the fruit and nut trees in the Garden of Eden, forbidding them only from eating the fruit of 1 tree. Satan seduced Eve into tasting the fruit and she then had Adam taste it. They were led astray by satan. Disobedience when there was plenty for them both. That is the law they/we broke/break. The punishment is death of the spirit in us. Through Jesus' sacrifice, he took the punishment of death away from all who believe and now our spirits/souls will not die but enjoy a life without pain or suffering and a life spent knowing and seeing God. I am sooo ready for that! |
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Edited by
wouldee
on
Fri 05/02/08 11:17 PM
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all have sinned and all err in their heart there is none righteous.....none. NOT ONE get over yourselves. you all fall down miserably in these threads and act like you are better than you are. no one is fooled except those that fool themselves. Pick me apart if you like, it won't change the fact that none of you that think you are above having screwed up have done so perfectly. You haven't, nor have I. But spouting that you are indignant about the truth being reminded you of your own fallability is a lie unto itself. You are an unrepentant liar that suggests that you are anything but fraught with error. And that lie seizes you whole even now. There is none perfect.....NONE. none righteous and anyone that supposes that they are is a liar. No one believes a liar, not even the liar. I'm wondering, at least to some extent why you feel like the people who question the unquestionable dogma think they are "better than?" And where did any of the posters above (myself included on previous threads) claim perfection, or that we were without human weaknesses. A "loving father" who sends his children to an eternal hell for failing to be perfect and then for failing to accept a "gift." Oh, you have got to be kidding? Who would do this? Would you? Would you send your own child to an eternal damnation for the worst of crimes? If an imperfect father wouldn't---how much more should a perfect father be repulsed by such a notion. This is logic, not dogma. There are people on this planet that I'm not fond of. But never, in my worst moment would I have failed to pull them from a burning car. And these are people I don't much like. Now, you want us to believe that a loving and powerful god, full of mercy and compassion could cast into a lake of eternal fire those for whom he claims the greatest love? I don't think I'm better than you or anyone else. But I also don't think I was born a poor miserable sinner guilty of crimes committed long before I took my first breath. I guess that is the major difference. -Drew hey Drew. You have a good memory. Better than most will admit.  Going to hell is not meant for man, it is the toilet for used angels that reinvent the wheel. So, let's save the cookie cutter disengenuity about Christian doctrine out of my mouth, eh? Speak to me about my words, my friend, not another's. But there is a narrow scope to my words that basically could be summed up quite succinctly. Follow the bouncing ball here from the beginning. The premise of the rebuttal as being attempted was that the fallability inherent in man is a myth, as others here are well disposed to espousing in their points. I have a good memory too. Therefore, my point. No one is perfect and no one is righteous and no one is without error. I , for one, thought it prudent to remind us all of that, before this thread got overheated and thoroughly hijacked in a whiny bash of hate. It has all the players for a slam fest. So, let's just relax a bit and breathe it in with some decorum. As far as our major difference is concerned, I don't know where you can purpose that I have ever espoused that we are guilty of the errors of our ancestors. I do not hold that view. I hold that every individual is inherently imperfect and is an unmitigated liar to say that they are not corrupted by their own doings. You included, aand not by degree, Drew. It is just the way it is and if you dare to tell me otherwise, you are lying even more. Everyone is fallen and by their own doings. You are not perfect and are very far from it. So am I. That doesn't make what Jesus said a lie also. It proves what he says. We are all incapable of honestly standing up to His example set for us and the way he taught us to view ourselves and the world of man. That's what gets everyone bent out of shape. It's that we have no ground to stand on to refute or rebutt him except by saying that its a myth. Ludicrous nonsense, that. No one measures up. NO ONE!!!!!! NONE can overstep His words because everyone is a liar that says they are as good or better than He is. Live it and show the world, is what I say, then. I am not pouncing on you, but rather sharing what anyone has had 2000 years to dare to do. It can't and won't be done. Jesus' words are so powerful that man cannot possibly come up with a better measure of the need in man than he did. Don't tell me otherwise, just go find someone that can talk the talk and walk the walk in thier own name and put Jesus to shame. I won't follow him, but you might. I don't believe any man alive today or after today has nearly the sense or or content and character to be that original and genuine anymore. Spiritually, we have become a dying race that is corrupted beyond suststainability as a species. Not only that, but we are corrupting our own environment to the point that it cannot endure the natural order of flora and fauna for much longer. And don't get me in a pissing contest about how bright and wonderful you are. You are coherent enough to grasp what I am saying. Let the dogs tear the road kill.
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all have sinned and all err in their heart there is none righteous.....none. NOT ONE get over yourselves. you all fall down miserably in these threads and act like you are better than you are. no one is fooled except those that fool themselves. Pick me apart if you like, it won't change the fact that none of you that think you are above having screwed up have done so perfectly. You haven't, nor have I. But spouting that you are indignant about the truth being reminded you of your own fallability is a lie unto itself. You are an unrepentant liar that suggests that you are anything but fraught with error. And that lie seizes you whole even now. There is none perfect.....NONE. none righteous and anyone that supposes that they are is a liar. No one believes a liar, not even the liar. I'm wondering, at least to some extent why you feel like the people who question the unquestionable dogma think they are "better than?" And where did any of the posters above (myself included on previous threads) claim perfection, or that we were without human weaknesses. A "loving father" who sends his children to an eternal hell for failing to be perfect and then for failing to accept a "gift." Oh, you have got to be kidding? Who would do this? Would you? Would you send your own child to an eternal damnation for the worst of crimes? If an imperfect father wouldn't---how much more should a perfect father be repulsed by such a notion. This is logic, not dogma. There are people on this planet that I'm not fond of. But never, in my worst moment would I have failed to pull them from a burning car. And these are people I don't much like. Now, you want us to believe that a loving and powerful god, full of mercy and compassion could cast into a lake of eternal fire those for whom he claims the greatest love? I don't think I'm better than you or anyone else. But I also don't think I was born a poor miserable sinner guilty of crimes committed long before I took my first breath. I guess that is the major difference. -Drew hey Drew. You have a good memory. Better than most will admit. Going to hell is not meant for man, it is the toilet for used angels that reinvent the wheel. So, let's save the cookie cutter disengenuity about Christian doctrine out of my mouth, eh? Speak to me about my words, my friend, not another's. But there is a narrow scope to my words that basically could be summed up quite succinctly. Follow the bouncing ball here from the beginning. The premise of the rebuttal as being attempted was that the fallability inherent in man is a myth, as others here are well disposed to espousing in their points. I have a good memory too. Therefore, my point. No one is perfect and no one is righteous and no one is without error. I , for one, thought it prudent to remind us all of that, before this thread got overheated and thoroughly hijacked in a whiny bash of hate. It has all the players for a slam fest. So, let's just relax a bit and breathe it in with some decorum. As far as our major difference is concerned, I don't know where you can purpose that I have ever espoused that we are guilty of the errors of our ancestors. I do not hold that view. I hold that every individual is inherently imperfect and is an unmitigated liar to say that they are not corrupted by their own doings. You included, aand not by degree, Drew. It is just the way it is and if you dare to tell me otherwise, you are lying even more. Everyone is fallen and by their own doings. You are not perfect and are very far from it. So am I. That doesn't make what Jesus said a lie also. It proves what he says. We are all incapable of honestly standing up to His example set for us and the way he taught us to view ourselves and the world of man. That's what gets everyone bent out of shape. It's that we have no ground to stand on to refute or rebutt him except by saying that its a myth. Ludicrous nonsense, that. No one measures up. NO ONE!!!!!! NONE can overstep His words because everyone is a liar that says they are as good or better than He is. Live it and show the world, is what I say, then. I am not pouncing on you, but rather sharing what anyone has had 2000 years to dare to do. It can't and won't be done. Jesus' words are so powerful that man cannot possibly come up with a better measure of the need in man than he did. Don't tell me otherwise, just go find someone that can talk the talk and walk the walk in thier own name and put Jesus to shame. I won't follow him, but you might. I don't believe any man alive today or after today has nearly the sense or or content and character to be that original and genuine anymore. Spiritually, we have become a dying race that is corrupted beyond suststainability as a species. Not only that, but we are corrupting our own environment to the point that it cannot endure the natural order of flora and fauna for much longer. And don't get me in a pissing contest with me about how bright and wonderful you are. You are coherent enough to grasp what I am saying. Let the dogs tear the road kill. I agree
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Thank God for Christ Jesus.
John 3:16 |
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