You seem to be confused.

I'm not making the argument that Jesus is God. I'm simply stating that it was an accepted belief among Christians long before Nicea. You are so eager to argue that you don't even pay attention to what I have posted. Context is everything and the context of the discussion is that Christians didn't believe Jesus to be God until Nicea. That's simply not true and I was refuting that claim.

Intermission.....


Refreshments Anyone ???


I have various freshly ground coffees,

herbal teas, honey soy & almond milk,
freshly squeezed fruit juices...


and


an assortment of fresh breads, muffins and pastries...


help yourself and enjoy!!! love & light to everyone

Accepted? Really? That's really not saying much considering that those who refused to accept this doctrine were killed.

JB

You are still trying to fight, please stop.

At 325 AD, Christians had just come out of hundreds of years of persecution. They were killed to entertain pagans. This is VERY well documented, btw. You are talking about the Inquisition and possibly the Crusades...which were hundreds of years in the future. Those Christians who were alive in 325 AD were Christians by choice, not force. Try to find a legitamate (ie, not fringe) historian who disagrees with what I have posted, you will not.

Okay whatever Spider. I really don't have the time to dissect history or debate about who killed who ~~ or when. Although I think the persecution of early Christians has been exaggerated.

It is the injustice of the Inquisition and the Crusades and other bloody battles that makes me question the religion itself as it seems to have been infiltrated with evil doers.

Peace.

this is a prime example of the problem we are all having.

The Christians teach and cite the truth and the facts about the faith.

The hearsay and the distortions caused by horrific counterfeits to the faith have left their stain that is too awful to fully understand the who, what, when, why, and where, of their wickedness and evil.

This contributes to the false impressions and the false teachings concerning Christianity.

Spider should be commended for his due diligence with regard to his efforts to explain the historical aspects of the faith and it's central message in truth.


This is a very difficult problem for all to understand about Christianity. That it has been under attack from the beginning, but survives and thrives and has reached the world in every generation.

It is a truly grassroots way of life.

From person to person in a personal and intimate way.

It has never changed.


The counterfeits have.

So has churchianity.


Please be patient with us.

We mean you no harm.

truly.

learn, grow, and be at peace.

You don't have time to dissect history or debate who killed who...?

BUT you have time to say "It is the injustice of the Inquisition and the Crusades and other bloody battles that makes me question the religion itself as it seems to have been infiltrated with evil doers."

What you mean is that you only have time to say negative things about Christianity and you can't be bothered to focus on the truth that is recorded by historians. Just be honest about your bias, it's more respectable to be closed minded and biased, but honest about being closed minded and biased than it is to be closed minded and biased and pretend that you are not.

I am not saying negative things about Christianity that is not true. You and I both know that it has a very violent and bloody past. If you will read the book recommended in this thread you might know what I am talking about.

Yes I am biased. Religion itself, to include Christianity has been ruthless and unfair towards women since the beginning. Yes I am biased. Yes I want people to know the truth. So sue me.
That is my opinion.

People are better off without religion. All religion.

People need to grow up and accept responsibility.

People can know God without the dogma of religion.

JB

It is time to grow up and put away childish things.

The power is in the people. Most people are good. Most Churches do good things.

But there is "evil" inside the Churches, as there is "evil" in our Government.

Things are not just black and white.

I just want people to think for themselves and learn how to take back their power!

JB

me too

Humanity has a violent past. You are seperating out religion as some great source of evil, but history tells a completely different story. In the past 100 years, more humans were killed by athiest regimes than were killed in all recorded wars in history (including religious ones). Well over 100 million people have been killed by Communism alone.

On top of that, you are ignoring the good done by religions. And you are pretending to know what a world without religion would be better, there is no way to know that.

Now take a look at what Jesus taught, look at what the apostles taught...were the crusades or the inquisition based on those teachings? Clearly not. So to say that either is a stain upon Christianity in general is foolish. The inquisition and crusades are a stain upon those people, who did horrible things. Those things have nothing to do with historical Christianity or with modern Christianity. Undoubtedly, we all have ancestors who did terrible things, some in the name of a religion and many not. It is unfair to judge a child by the actions of the parent and it is equally unfair to judge a Christian by the actions of Christians long dead.

Last, you deny accepted history. The fact that Christians were persecuted isn't even questioned, but you have the audacity to question it while at the same time saying that you don't have time to talk about history. You continue by talking about how horrible and bloody Christianitys past is, but you ignore the fact that the Crusades were a response to Muslim aggression and that the Inquisition saw many non-Catholic Christians put to the question. The majority of historians agree that Christianity and Europe was saved by the Crusades. Poor farmers: men, women and children fighting professional soldiers. They died in the hundreds of thousands, but they caused the Muslims to pull back to the Middle East and returned Italy and Spain back to Christian hands. The Crusades were not started until 2/3's of the Christian world was conquered by Muslims. The ONLY Muslim country in the Middle East was Saudi Arabia, but through conquest and war, almost the entire Middle East and southern Europe was turned Muslim. All non-Muslims were allowed to convert or live in dhimminitude (which means your value is at most 1/2 that of a Muslim). The only reason that Europe exists as it does today is that Christians went to war with the vast armies of Muslims invading their lands.

I've always been troubled by this notion of the cross. It says in the ten commandments that "we shall have no graven images or idols." Much like the Islamics believe about Mohammed, God specifically denies us the use of imagies or icons to reperesent him. The cross is a violations of God's law, because it raises an images that distracts from God's love.

I can hear you now saying "that's not true, the cross reminds us of God's love." Wrong, that is an idol same as a golden calf. God's love isn't a piece of wood, it was the sacrifice. For those that don't think that Jehovah didn't expect blood, reread the story of Jeptah, Judge of Israel. He was required to slay his only daughter to appease God. It is the blood which spilt on the ground that released us from sin. Not the cross. Yes Christians, you have a blood God same as Kali of Hindu lore.

Throw away your crosses, get rid of the fish, and look for God where he is, in the eyes of your brothers and sisters walking along side you.

The cross is a symbol, it is not worshipped. Idols are worshipped. The Golden Calf was supposed to be a representation of God. It wasn't a symbol reminding the Israelites of God's love. In the Old Testament, Moses made a snake of brass and put it on a pole in the middle of the Israelites. When one was bitten by a venomous snake, they could look at the snake on the pole and their the venom was cured. The snake was there to remind the people that God created the snakes and God was greater than the snakes. It also taught the people to look to heaven when they had troubles. There is nothing wrong with the cross, you are just mistaken on it's purpose and the definition of an idol.

I disagree, you are the one that is mistaken. You've taken catholic dogma and some old hymns and let them blind you. Did Christ actually say remember my cross so you can live. No, he said by my body you are healed, by my blood you are washed. The cross was a Roman warning to it's subjects. A warning of hatred. Most christians beat their crosses for the same reasons. Hatred of gays, hatred of other religions, hatred of anything perceived as a moral outrage. Loose the cross free your heart and follow the spirit. He'll lead you a lot farther than than some dumb ol' piece of wood.

I'm not a Catholic and I don't own a cross. But I have read the Bible and Jesus spoke of the cross as the burden to be a Christian. The apostles spoke of the cross as the symbol of salvation. It's not to be worshipped and when I think of the cross, I see the mental image of a naked cross, because the one who once hanged there no longer does.

Of course, Jamie.....


Our Lord is not on the cross anymore


He has been Resurrected from Death



and Dwells in Everlasting Life & Light, right now...


The cross is a symbol of His Sacrifice

very nicely put my friend.