Would it be akin to wearing the star of David on a uniform while invading Palestinian territory and blowing up women and children with tanks? Hmmmmm, food for thought.

Cheers



Right On !!!



... !!!!! Wouldee !!!!!

What sparked this rant?

It appears that Christianity (and many of its followers) are obsessed with trying to make people feel guilty.

Jesus said not to judge others. Yet this seems to be the only thing that Christians know how to do.

If this is what people become when they become a Christian then I am so grateful that I’ll never become one.

Like Mahatma Gandhi once said, “I like your Christ, but I don’t care much for your Christians”

Jesus said not to judge others. Why are Christians so anxious to willfully disobey him? Don’t they realize that willful disobedience of their God is a sin? Telling others that they are sinners is to judge them.

The hypocrisy of the Christians make their religion quite unattractive. They do precisely the opposite of what Jesus taught them to do and they do it in His name.

I think it’s quite ironic how Christians actually make me feel close to Jesus but definitely wanting to be as far from Christianity as I can get. I guess I'm seeing what Mahatma Gandhi saw.

Abra.

your hypocrisy is only superceded by your arrogance.

The Bible and Christianity teaches that coming to Jesus is the point.

Yet you pontificate everything else from the outside looking in.

It says to you, repent, and be baptised.

Before you spout your judgement from without, come in.

It is the call to you.

You have no business spouting that which you are not part of;

Professing to know but not knowing your part in participation.


Ranting as though you have the answers when all you have is questionable criticisms of things admittedly outside of the realm of your comprehension.

The pontifical judge of things foreign to his person is a hypocritical oxymoron, Abra.

Your blindness and permissiveness does not extend to using my posts to speak in the third person of me.

Either address my post directly in bravery or abandon your cowardice when affronting things obviously incomprehensible.

Who do you expect to answer your diatribe when your address is of my post?

Gandhi?

Get over yourself and sit down and think of something new to say about something that you either know something about first hand, or something that no one suspects you of feigning authority and command of the discipline spouted so offhandedly about.


Grabbing things unwittingly and ignoring the context and relevance of the thread is bad enough, but assuming that your conclusory assumptions about the truth of Christian thought and doctrine and discipline as palpable is only humorous to those that know as little or less about the faith than you do.

You have no affinity for Jesus and only cling to romantic delusions that you are somehow special and afforded unique and original means and access to identify with Jesus Christ as though you are meritoriously superior to the very faith itself.


Your blasphemous idolatry of things too rich and consuming for you have deluded your self esteem, and given you the proud arrogance of a judge that thinks himself above the law.

At the very least, you continuously project yourself of higher comprehension than the faithful and yet lack entrance and identity with the faith itself.

To what end is your covetousness meant to flatter and entertain any, ABra?


You are pathetically abhorrent in your contempt of things escaping your desire and lust for esteem as a herald.

Herald your pantheism and leave judgement of Christianity to Christians.

Choose or deny, but do not suppose credibility to teach that which is not your personal experience.

Nothing you say is meritorious in your latest folly.

It would take a book and a lifetime of reverse engineering of your psyche to correct your erroneous view.

Jesus can accomplish that feat for you, but man cannot.

YOU WILL HAVE TO LEAVE YOUR SELF RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION AT HIS FEET TO RECEIVE REPAIR.


In the meantime, remember that when you respond to my posts, respond directly to my person in the first person and do not address me in the third person as an object of your contempt while soapboxing on my post as though I am observing you address someone else.

Show some backbone and lose the cowardice.




relevance? the cross is about perfection in Christ which is unavailable outside of Christ. None is righteous, not one. You are a liar to suppose that you are.

Stay in context, Abra. Stay present in the conversation and on topic and know what you have entered into before you spout your vomitous foolishness.

Your opinion is your own, so don't suppose its efficacy wll be affirmed or acknowledged pleasantly and confirmingly.

Least of all from me. I am no flatterer.

LOL.....do you actually read what you write before posting it? Abra is not the one in this thread telling people what they have to believe in order to come to God. You are, Wouldee. By the son or be damned?....please. Talk about arrogance. You have mastered the art not only of arrogance but of talking down to people with whom you disagree. You know, if spending eternity with the likes of people who profess to "know" is rivaled by the alternative, which would look something like spending eternity with people a little less sure of themselves, well--I'll take the latter, and be happy to face the consequences and results of that choice.

-Drew

Drew.

I most certainly do read my posts.

You have not read my post, nor read what preceded it thoughtfully and should do so one more time.

It will clarify for you that I am not telling anyone to come to God my way.

Use your faculties to grasp that distinction , Drew. It's clear if you choose to see it.

That should give your comment about arrogance gracing me some pause as to whether or not it is applicable.

It is a case of the kettle calling the pot black and that goes both ways.

The point is this if it is not truly clear enough to you; many will say Christians are not to judge, but it is the call to all to receive Christ, first and foremost.

Selective criticism of what constitutes judgement of things Christian is not the fluency one would think it is in the hearts and minds of people predisposed to rejecting Christ altogether.

Let's not put the cart before the horse just because it has been attempted before and been left unanswered by dumbfounded Christians of elementary and immature equipment of judgement to answer well and succinctly, not to mention, intelligently..

It would be blatant arrogance on my part to suppose to know sonmething without being well schooled and disciplined in it firsthand. I do not take my words lightly. Others ought to read them carefully too.

So, let's dissect the problem a bit. Abra has addressed my post and supposed that it is a rant.
The thread had come to exhibit some attempts to call into question whether or not any man is necessarily faulty.

All are faulty, none are righteous and none are perfect, Drew.

Any man that claims the contrary is a liar. Period.

It doesn't require me to prove it to you; you know yourself that you are not perfect and not without faults. So do I.

We need not lie to ourselves. Lying to others is a waste of time and foolish denial; pure and unadulterated delusion.

Now then, if I may infer by your remarks about settling for less than 'in the know' as substantially credible in so far as apprehending 'anything less certain'( to quote you as best as I can given some poor phrasiology that seems divisive, but it's your language and not mine) concerning the eternal consequence of your soul after this life, so be it. It is your choice; Making it in good conscience is your right. I have no disagreement with you in so choosing for yourself. Nor do I hold any contempt for anyone's choices.



Now then, Drew, I have answered you according to the things addressed to me by you without addressing my post to Abra, as best I can, so that the exchange between he and I will not be tarnished by your exceptions to my remarks to him.

If you have no further misunderstandings, and suppose my arrogance remains unchecked and intact as you suggest, I can live with that.

In closing, I say this to you.

Belief in God is not what is at issue in my remarks to Abra.

What is at issue is whether or not the things of God in Christ are a validity with which Abra has any credible mastery of when making judgements about Christian thought, doctrine, practice and judgement when he, himself, chooses to be found wanting when it comes to being a partaker of the faith itself.

The hypocrisy and arrogance of judging things incomprehensible is unmeritorious in any discipline.

Math teachers don't teach Physical Education necessarily and accountants are not always the best salesmen, if you catch my drift.

Certainly, the janitor doesn't need an MBA to his job.

The oddly peculiar thing about Christianity is this, Drew. All come into the faith equal, but not all in the faith are equal in their knowledge and understanding of the faith. Those that are but just starting their walk in the anointing of the Holy Spirit must grow in spiritual stature over time as led by the Lord within. The elders, should they be wise in their knowledge and understanding in the Lord, will exhibit care and patience with the young mind in Christ.

But all grow in stature, experientially, not in opinionated self affirmed interpretations of the faith. The faith is taught by the Holy Spirit and the true church is but an echo for such.

Fellowship and relationships between believers is an entirely different matter, Drew.

But the responsibility is the Holy Spirit's and the accountability is the Christian's.

Outsiders of the faith are not the best judges of the faith.

The faithful are.

Whether anyone cares to respect that and comprehend that is another matter.

peace

Because God is a God of justice. All I can tell you is that I can't convince you...I can only relay to you what is. I do understand how you feel. You just don't AGREE with God. I ALSO HAD STRUGGLES WITH BELIEVING His word. Lately, because I desire something more I am asking God to help me be IN AGREEMENT with Him in areas I am not. To my surprize...IT WORKS! God says be holy as I am holy. Holiness just means being in total agreement with God with my mind, soul, will, body & spirit. Get that?

If you are just turning your back on His Word & His will then that is your decision but I would hope you would sincerely seek Him for the comfort you so desire of HIM. God bless...

Hi
I'm not going to single out any one particular post in this thread... I'd be here all day!
It's a matter of faith, and your point of view.
I was never taught to feel guilty because Jesus chose to die for my sins, and for all of mankind's sins as well. It was an unselfish act of love. Don't forget that He rose from the dead three days later, and still lives within us all.... You just have to look!

How many of you have forgotten that He was more than the Son of God? He had a mother, y'know! That makes Him the Son of Mankind, too.

He wasn't born without sin. He was Baptized to be cleansed, and He worshipped God the same way we do today.... He showed us the way, we need only to believe, in order to follow.

God didn't die on a pole, as one person wrote. Jesus did. At the time of Jesus, the Roman's method of execution happened to be crucifiction. Thousands of others died the same way.

God created everything. Including us. Adam and Eve disobeyed Him. Their son Cain murdered his brother in a fit of jealous rage. God sees this and knows His creation is getting out of control. Their sins are getting worse! Yet, He loves us enough to keep giving us second chances.
(Starting to get the picture here, people??) He cleansed the world with a flood, yet He saved Noah and his family, etc., and mankind got another chance to get it right. But man kept sinning.

Jesus chose to be sacrificed in our place, to save us from God's wrath. How many of you would die to protect your children? Or gladly trade places with a loved one who is suffering? Jesus did just that- for us!

That's all I'm going to say for now.

Thank you Drew. It’s refreshing to read the words of someone who actually sees the truth. Wouldee is condemning me on a personal level because I don’t believe in the fairytales that he believes in. But I don’t condemn him for not believing like me. I merely point out to him the errors in the fairytale he claims to believe in and he becomes distraught and angry and lashes out at me because deep down inside he knows that I’m right and it makes him uncomfortable. If he was truly comfortable in what he claims to believe he wouldn’t need to become defensive about it. If he truly believed what he claims he would simply explain things calmly and collectively instead of lashing out with personal insults of arrogance, etc. No Christian will ever win someone over to their faith by becoming hostile toward them, and I’m sure this is a large part of what Mahatma Gandhi noticed in Christians as well.

I could actually teach Christianity far better than any Christian I’ve ever met. Of course, I’m not about to do that because I don’t believe it’s true. There are far too many irresolvable inconsistencies and contradictions in it that can’t possibly be resolved in any sensible way.



You must be arguing with yourself now because no one every claimed to be perfect. Moreover, where is it written that it’s a sin to be imperfect anyway? You have nothing substantial to say so you’re scraping at the bottom of the barrel trying to prove that everyone is a sinner because no one can be perfect. This is nothing short of an argument of complete desperation on your part.





The biblical God is not a god of justice at all. The biblical God created the world. Therefore if the world is tainted it is entirely the biblical God’s fault. He would be totally unjust in placing the blame for that on his creation.

This is what so many Christians don’t seem to be able to grasp. They like to claim that their God is all-powerful, all-wise, all-knowing, and that for God all things are possible. Yet in the next breath they expect people to believe that this God can’t created a perfect world where no souls are lost to eternal damnation.

They are essentially saying that there are things this all-powerful God cannot do. And with that their whole story crumbles into a totally inconsistent contradictory story about a God that appeases itself though blood sacrifices. If this were true, if God really was like this, it could only be because this God chose for the world to be like this and therefore all responsibly for it ultimately lies on his choices, and no one else’s.

Many people claim that the biblical God offers unconditional love. But nothing could be further from the truth. The biblical God’s love is extremely conditional on complete and utter obedience to God not only in matter of sin, but in matter of choosing the correct believe on pure faith which means that this God’s love is conditional on whether or not a person guesses correctly on which religion to extol.

This is a picture of a God who not only created a universe where souls can be lost to eternal damnation, but also one in which souls can be lost simply because they didn’t guess correctly. This is a picture of a God who shoots craps with human souls.

It simply makes absolutely no sense for a judgmental God to play hide & seek and guessing games. If a God wants to be judgmental he must make himself known unequivocally without a shadow of a doubt. Otherwise how can people know that he’s real? It would be absurd beyond an sanity for a judgmental God to blame people for not believing in an ancient archaic myth about a God who is appeased by blood sacrifices. That’s a picture of a sick demented sadist that gets off on being appeased by destruction and blood and guts. No person in their right mind would believe that such a bloodthirsty God could be all loving and compassionate. In fact, the whole gory and bloody crucifixion of Christ is totally meaningless outside of this context. You must believe that God was very pleased and appeased by this act. This was God’s moment of ecstasy! Such a God would be a sadist!

Does it even begin to make sense that God was so upset with mankind because he was sinning so bad (murder being one of the sins), that he would say, “Ok, I can’t forget you for your sins without a blood sacrifice, so I’ll send my Son to earth. If you publicly humiliate him, torture him and nail him to a pole I can forgive you of your sins! Does that even makes sense at all? God’s going to forgive men of their sins if they’ll just be so kind as to commit a horrific murder one more time????

This may make sense to you, but it makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.

Consider this,… there are better pictures of God to be had. And I’m not trying to sell them, I’m just pointing out the fact that they exist.

Generically speaking the best picture of God I have ever heard of is the Pantheistic view. Pantheism is not a religion in and of itself (although there are people who try to make it into one). There are actually many different religions that have a Pantheistic view of God.

The Pantheistic view of God says that God became the universe rather than creating it as an external separate thing in its own right. Everything you see around you is a manifestation of God. All of creation is God. Often times Christians will bulk at this and say, “Do you expect me to believe that rocks are God?”

Yes! They are certainly a part of God. And why is this so hard to understand? Fingernails are part of a human body too, and so is hair. Just because something is a part of God doesn’t need to mean that it has it’s own consciousness. Plants are like God’s hair. We can cut them down and devour them for food without hurting God anymore than getting a hair cut hurts us.

The entire universe is God, and we are individual manifestations of God. In this way we are the “children” of God. Clearly this God is omniscient (just like the biblical God is said to be). But in this picture it’s clear that God is everything.

The main difference is that this God is not a judgmental God. This God did not have a fallen angel that can’t be contained. This God doesn’t proclaim that all men are sinners and have fallen short of the glory of God. This God didn’t created a hell to cast the losers. This God doesn’t expect anyone to worship it unless they want to.

In this universe there are no losers (spiritually speaking). No souls can ever possibly go to hell because there is no hell to go to. No souls can possible be separated from God because all souls are a manifestation of God. Everyone will return to God in the end because there is nowhere else to go. There is no evil Satan or hell. And this God doesn’t thrive on blood sacrifices.

There are no losers in this creation. This God truly is perfect. This God designed a universe were no one can lose, and no souls can be lost to eternal damnation. This God truly is all-powerful, all-wise and completely benevolent beyond mankind’s wildest imagination. (well that’s not exactly true because them men who imagined Pantheism clearly imagined this perfect God). And that’s a very good point! How could it be that mere mortal men can imagine a God that’s more perfect that God? That’s precisely what they would have done if the biblical picture of God is true, because Pantheism is a more perfect picture of a God than the biblical picture is.

Pantheism represents a truly perfect God that has genuine unconditional love to offer to everyone.

The Pantheistic view of God is so far superior to the biblical picture of God that the biblical picture of God can’t possibly be true. Such a God would be grossly flawed and far from perfect.

Based on this alone we have no choice but to conclude that if there is a God it mast be pantheistic in its nature.

The grossly sadistic biblical picture of an angry God who can only be appeased via blood sacrifices and has created a Hell in which to cast everyone who displeases him is an extremely egotistical view of a bloodthirsty sadist. A God who is at war with a fallen angel he can’t contain. A God who created a world in which there are many losers. A totally imperfect God.

If I have to take a picture to God and say, “Here this is what I believe you are like”, I would most certainly take the pantheistic picture to God. That would be the highest compliment I could give God. I would be saying to God, “Here, I believe you are truly the most perfect divine deity ever, and your love is unconditional beyond any mortal man’s ability to love”

If I took the biblical picture to God it would be like saying, “Here, I think you’re an extremes sadistic idiot who can’t keep anything under control, and you’ve created a total mess where the vast majority of the souls you’ve created end up in eternal damnation. Your love is highly conditional and all you can dream about is becoming the king of kings, and lord of lords and rule over men. That’s your highest ambition. Oh yes, and you also are appeased by bloodshed and solve all your problem with violence.”

To me, that would be a very impolite thing to accuse God of being. The bible is a total disgrace to the true nature of God. It’s a extreme insult to the true nature of God. Why would anyone choose to believe God would be like that, especially when it their choice!!! They have to believe in that picture on pure faith?

Why would anyone put their faith in that picture???

Pantheism is a much better picture of God in which to place your faith. At least your saying to God, “Here, I believe you truly are all-powerful, all-wise, all-loving, perfect and divine.”

The Bible is the greatest insult to God that mankind ever invented.

I'm very glad, very fortunate & thankful


that i have much more going on in my life


than to debate all day and night


in these forever fruitless fiascos.......





I don't need to prove myself


or my beliefs to any one


to feel good about myself


or to feel right with my God






I wish you all real peace and true love & a real life

These aren’t fruitless fiascos for me. I post mainly for the non-posting audience (not for the people I’m actually bouncing ideas off). Almost all of the emails I get are from non-posting readers who express much appreciation for the views I express. They tell me that my posts are quite refreshing and deeply insightful.

If it weren’t for their feedback I would have quit posting a long time ago. Every time I think about quitting I’ll get another email that expresses great appreciation and many thanks for the work I’m doing in helping people to see that there are other alternatives to life than just the standard stereotypical religious view.

So I find my experience here to be quite fruitful, and many forum readers have found my post to be fruitful as well. I don’t think people realize how many non-posters read these forums. The vast majority of readers do not post at all. They either aren't interested in debating, or, as many of them have suggested to me, they simply feel that I'm doing such a wonderful job of expressing their views that they don't feel any need to post.

It may appear to the regulars that I’m ‘arguing’ with them, but that’s not even close to being the case. I’m merely bouncing off their posts to make points to the general public for whomever might be interested. It's just food for thought.

This has been a quite fruitful experience for me over the years, and continues to be. In fact I just got a kiss sent to me today by a woman in Niger who said that she so appreciates reading my posts.

(Drew writes to wouldee)



Thank you Drew. I was beginning to think I was the only one who sees wouldee "talking down" to others as if he has all the answers ~~ for them.

I know some people feel happy and secure in what they believe, and I am happy for them. I just get a bad taste in my mouth when I see people doing that.

Perhaps Wouldee has all the answers for himself, and feels good in the thought that he is more "intelligent" than the average 'shmuck' but it is just not classy to talk down to other people in my opinion.

JB

Abra,

Your posts then talk at the air?

Answering your own diatribe is apparently too difficult to justify and deflecting your accountability for your your own premise in any post is warranted as being for invisible fans?

Such is the cowardice of any that pontificates rhetorical dogma and hidden agendas for the sake of being argumentative and opinionated in intent.

Debate is too difficult for you and your positions indefensible when deflections and transference grip your imagination.

How smug to be so secure in your delusions that you must insult any that do not agree with you.

Once again, you stand on your self righteous self proclamations of just how important and heroic you are in your own imagination.

Whatever you have to say is circular and endlessly distracting and certainly irrelevant in cases such as the one in this thread.

Being dependent on ignoring substantiation for your own remarks displays your abundance of lack.

I, for one, am amused at your feeble attempts tp change the tenor of your accountabbility for your diatribe and indefensible shallowness.

Whatever next follows is more of the same.

You have had ample opportunity to respond directly and to the point and have repeatedly refused.



The heart tesitfies of conscience and displays its shortcomings inwardly and evidence of the guilty condition within stops the tongue when such are indefensible.

Thus the cross.

Choices abound, my friend.

We all live and die by them.

May your heart be filled with joy and clarity and rejoice in its cleanliness and clarity each and every day.

Amen.

The Fairy Land Fighters


They are the white-lighters,
The Dudly-do-righters.
Like fairies they flutter
Admiring each other.

When the rain falls
On the fairy parade
Washing the dust off
The silly charade.,
There they are
With tooth and claw
Spewing sweet poison
And fairy law.

But they will smile
And blow you a kiss
And act as if
There is nothing amiss
All the while dancing
In poison light
On the border of hell
At the edge of night.

They always do
what they think they must
High on themselves
And fairy dust.

They are the white-lighters
The fairly land fighters.

JB

Abra's fans are not invisible.
He does not engage in personal attacks on people like you do.

Too many people confuse themselves with what they believe, and this is why they are feeling insulted. This is because they don't know who they truly are and cannot distinguish themselves from what they believe.

JB

Well they aren’t very invisible when I open their emails.

As to the rest of your post, it just appears to be nothing more than personal insults directed at my character. I’m really not interested in reading such dribble much less responding to it. Perhaps someone else may find it entertaining.

Sad, but all too true.