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Topic: Funs with Guns
no photo
Thu 04/17/08 11:43 AM
Edited by Jistme on Thu 04/17/08 11:46 AM
Perhaps the way I should have countered your verbage adj... is:

How come there is nothing in there defining 'Regulated Militia'?

Regulated:
A rule of order having the force of law, prescribed by a superior or competent authority, relating to the actions of those under the authority's control.

Militia:
A group of private citizens who train for military duty in order to be ready to defend their state or country in times of emergency. A militia is distinct from regular military forces, which are units of professional soldiers maintained both in war and peace by the federal government.

In the United States, as of the early 2000s, the National Guard serves as the nation's militia. Made up of volunteers, the National Guard acts under the dual authority of both the federal and state governments. According to the Constitution, Congress can call the National Guard into federal service for three purposes: to enforce federal laws, to suppress insurrections, and to defend against invasions. State governors can call upon the National Guard for emergencies that are prescribed by state law.

The American militia system has its roots in ancient English tradition, dating back to the Anglo-Saxon militia that existed centuries before the Norman Conquest in 1066. This militia, known as the fyrd, consisted of every able-bodied male of military age. It was traditionally used for defense only, and the sovereign could call upon the fyrd to fight if the men would be able to return to their homes by nightfall. Fyrd members were required to supply their own weapons, which they could use only in the service of the king.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Given this definition...
Wouldn't it seem reasonable to assume that a militia does not consist of private untrained citizens?
Even if it does.. That the term 'regulated' means the State has the right to determine what is armed and not armed?

no photo
Thu 04/17/08 11:47 AM
sometimes i carry tens of thosands of dollars on me when my customers pay cash..... plus there are stupid people who were dropped on thier heads when they were babies who think nothing of capping someone for sport, or over some argument. Im not looking for trouble, but if it finds me i have a decent chance of comming out on top. I hope i never have to drop the hammer but if i do somenoes going to assume room temperature. Plus i never know when i might have an oppertunity to shoot some water jugs or cans or win some money by cleaning up on the local competition.
I dont live BY the Gun i live WITH A gUN.

adj4u's photo
Thu 04/17/08 11:48 AM
dave yer ok with me

we all mix up posts on occasion

good healthy discussion is always a good thing

and to dis like another for the simple reason of a disagreement on a subject or two does not make any sense to me

i think you and lilth are cool and would have dinner with ya

anytime everyone agrees then all but one of those people are not needed

no photo
Thu 04/17/08 11:51 AM
My only disagreement with lilith was the question that started with:

Why is it that all you card carrying members...

she put me in a catagory....cause as I stated I do not carry a gun but I do carry the card...

Lillith is a great person and I enjoyed the questions she posted...

Its like saying why are all men bad or all women bad....when we know we/they are not.

flowerforyou

adj4u's photo
Thu 04/17/08 11:53 AM

Perhaps the way I should have countered your verbage adj... is:

How come there is nothing in there defining 'Regulated Militia'?

Regulated:
A rule of order having the force of law, prescribed by a superior or competent authority, relating to the actions of those under the authority's control.

Militia:
A group of private citizens who train for military duty in order to be ready to defend their state or country in times of emergency. A militia is distinct from regular military forces, which are units of professional soldiers maintained both in war and peace by the federal government.

In the United States, as of the early 2000s, the National Guard serves as the nation's militia. Made up of volunteers, the National Guard acts under the dual authority of both the federal and state governments. According to the Constitution, Congress can call the National Guard into federal service for three purposes: to enforce federal laws, to suppress insurrections, and to defend against invasions. State governors can call upon the National Guard for emergencies that are prescribed by state law.

The American militia system has its roots in ancient English tradition, dating back to the Anglo-Saxon militia that existed centuries before the Norman Conquest in 1066. This militia, known as the fyrd, consisted of every able-bodied male of military age. It was traditionally used for defense only, and the sovereign could call upon the fyrd to fight if the men would be able to return to their homes by nightfall. Fyrd members were required to supply their own weapons, which they could use only in the service of the king.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Given this definition...
Wouldn't it seem reasonable to assume that a militia does not consist of private untrained citizens?
Even if it does.. That the term 'regulated' means the State has the right to determine what is armed and not armed?



the govt does not permit a well regulated militia

the govt raids those establishing a well regulated militia and confiscates their weapons

but if you read that post carefully you will see it points out it is the responsibility of the ***people*** to regulate the govt not the other way around

in the past when the govt disarms the ***people*** then mass killing of the --undesirables-- follows




lilith401's photo
Thu 04/17/08 11:54 AM
Hunter~~~

"Card Carrying Members" is a phrase I use often...

It was meant to mean "people who carry guns", in a very lighthearted way. As was the rest of my post!

I say "Card Carrying Members" to refer to lots of stuff... no mean to offend. But it was a categorization, as in gun owners/carriers.

no photo
Thu 04/17/08 12:00 PM
No worries lillith I was not really offended......takes alot more to get my feathers ruffled up my butt........than debating an issue.......

I think your great

lilith401's photo
Thu 04/17/08 12:03 PM
Thank you, kind sir! flowerforyou

no photo
Thu 04/17/08 12:14 PM




read your history books it is not paranoia if it is backed by history


What about you? Why do you carry a gun? Because history told you to do so?


what makes you say i carry a gun


If you aren't one who carries a gun, sorry. Didn't mean to make an assumption. As I said earlier, I'm really just curious as to why those who are armed at all times feel the need to be.


I don' t think (my perspective here) that it is a matter of "always being armed at all times"

I would think that it is "always having the choice to be armed at any time"

I don't carry any longer. At one time (job requirement) I did.
I don't feel the need to on a routine basis.

However - **IF** I felt that it might be a prudent action, it would be nice to do so *legally* and not worry about it.
(Although - if I felt that strongly, I would either skip the situation entirely, or go armed anyway. Better judged by 12, than carried by 6)

SharpShooter10's photo
Thu 04/17/08 12:16 PM
I have gun, I love guns, I like to shoot the chit out of my guns, I hate anti gunners with a passion, Do you want my gun............bigsmile come n get the F$ckersdrinker smokin bigsmile

SharpShooter10's photo
Thu 04/17/08 12:18 PM
I'm armed all the time, I cannot prevent being a victim, I will not however be an helpless victimbigsmile smokin drinker

Drivinmenutz's photo
Thu 04/17/08 12:19 PM
I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.

--- George Mason, 3 Elliott, Debates at 425-426

To disarm the people (is) the best and most effectual way to enslave them.

--- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United states who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms...

--- Samuel Adams

No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

--- Thomas Jefferson, proposal Virginia Constitution, June 1776, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334

On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.

--- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage then to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.

--- Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764

The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside . . . Horrid mischief would ensue were one half deprived the use of them . . .

--- Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War, 1775


The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.

--- James Madison, The Federalist No. 46

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyrany in government.

--- Thomas Jefferson



Now seriously, does anyone really, truely, honestly, believe that our constitution was intended to just arm a government regulated militia? Listen to those whose signatures are on the constitution.

SharpShooter10's photo
Thu 04/17/08 12:20 PM





read your history books it is not paranoia if it is backed by history


What about you? Why do you carry a gun? Because history told you to do so?


what makes you say i carry a gun


If you aren't one who carries a gun, sorry. Didn't mean to make an assumption. As I said earlier, I'm really just curious as to why those who are armed at all times feel the need to be.


I don' t think (my perspective here) that it is a matter of "always being armed at all times"

I would think that it is "always having the choice to be armed at any time"

I don't carry any longer. At one time (job requirement) I did.
I don't feel the need to on a routine basis.

However - **IF** I felt that it might be a prudent action, it would be nice to do so *legally* and not worry about it.
(Although - if I felt that strongly, I would either skip the situation entirely, or go armed anyway. Better judged by 12, than carried by 6)
Last sentence, drinker damn rightdrinker

SharpShooter10's photo
Thu 04/17/08 12:21 PM

I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials.

--- George Mason, 3 Elliott, Debates at 425-426

To disarm the people (is) the best and most effectual way to enslave them.

--- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380

That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United states who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms...

--- Samuel Adams

No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms.

--- Thomas Jefferson, proposal Virginia Constitution, June 1776, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334

On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or intended against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed.

--- Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, 12 June 1823

Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage then to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.

--- Thomas Jefferson, quoting 18th century criminologist Cesare Beccaria in "On Crimes and Punishment", 1764

The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand, arms like laws discourage and keep the invader and the plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside . . . Horrid mischief would ensue were one half deprived the use of them . . .

--- Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War, 1775


The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.

--- James Madison, The Federalist No. 46

The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyrany in government.

--- Thomas Jefferson



Now seriously, does anyone really, truely, honestly, believe that our constitution was intended to just arm a government regulated militia? Listen to those whose signatures are on the constitution.

drinker drinker drinker

Drivinmenutz's photo
Thu 04/17/08 12:38 PM
people don't need to be controlled, they need to be educated. Once they are properly educated they can take care of themselves. Anyone who thinks more control should be applied to the people seriously needs to leave this country because the USA was founded on freedom and should always stand for freedom. Safety is no substitute for freedom.

This will be the best security for maintaining our liberties. A nation of well-informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the religion of ignorance that tyranny begins.

and

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.

Both from Benjamin Franklin

no photo
Thu 04/17/08 01:10 PM

Now seriously, does anyone really, truely, honestly, believe that our constitution was intended to just arm a government regulated militia? Listen to those whose signatures are on the constitution.


Then by whom?
The amendment does use the word regulated, does it not? Who is to govern other then the Government. Who is to be in charge of the agenda of said militias?

We've had a bit of experience around here in the Northwest on this.

For instance.. Take a look at this site.
http://www.aryan-nations.org/about.htm

The Constitution of Oregon State manages to say it in such a way that is substantially different then the Federal Constitution.

It says:
Section 27. Right to bear arms; military subordinate to civil power. The people shall have the right to bear arms for the defence [sic] of themselves, and the State, but the Military shall be kept in strict subordination to the civil power[.]

How come they failed to word the Federal Constitution like that?

adj4u's photo
Thu 04/17/08 01:16 PM
how can the ***people*** keep the military subordinate if the
***people*** are not armed

the military sure is

lilith401's photo
Thu 04/17/08 01:18 PM
Edited by lilith401 on Thu 04/17/08 01:18 PM
Some laws are poorly written. Some are not properly updated. It is entirely possible that there are just errors and outdated situations in our laws, and in our consituation. Society has changed!

In Akron, Ohio it is against the law for a woman to wear patent leather shoes if she is wearing a skirt.


no photo
Thu 04/17/08 01:21 PM

In Akron, Ohio it is against the law for a woman to wear patent leather shoes if she is wearing a skirt.


But those really spikey heels are okay.... Oh wait...different topic....nevermind.....

adj4u's photo
Thu 04/17/08 01:24 PM
yes there are out dated laws

but rights are not a law and are timeless


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