Certain Native American tribes also have a similar version of this. The body would be placed up on a stand of sorts and left to decomp and go back to nature on its own.

I've only just gotten into Zoroastrianism a bit, the past 3 weeks or so. I was doing some research on the Mithraic Aeon, of which seems a conglomeration of Greek, Zoroastrianism, and Mithraism.

Why do so many people read forums, yet not respond to posts. There are tons of views on many threads, yet not so many responses. Even threads where the response is easy and doesn't take a lot of thinking. I'm sure some will say they are shy. I don't see how someone can be shy online, though. So, what's the point of being a lurker?

I like to think I know my penis, but I have never been one. I have however known some dlcks.

Good question. I was hoping that more people would offer their knowledge on this religion. I guess not many are interested in the end. I can research it and see what happened. There are no guarantees that I will find the answer.

That is when you wish you had such people like Professor Joseph Campbell who studies mythology and theology and gives fruitful stories of them.

We shall see what we will come up with

legalize...but make it mandatory that all government officials have to smoke it

Yes – in most of the sciences we look to cause and effect to support our theories. Our universe has proven to be a rather mechanistic place functioning deterministically through the laws of nature. All parts of the universe, including humans, function under the laws that guide motion and matter.

This philosophy is often referred to as ‘Hard Determinism’, in which an unbroken chain of cause and effect extends from the most distant universal past to your individual decisions today, and well beyond us to all matter in the universe.



Well I see a problem right away in that genetics are actually part of the argument that upholds the deterministic view. If we function “strictly” though genetics then we are acting reflexively (as in making choices purely based on survival outcome). Furthermore, if cause and effect were followed back to the origin of ‘first cause’ we would have the ‘formula’, so-to-speak, for how that DNA was created and encoded.

The “leap” you say is taken comes when “unknown” information is transformed into a specific design by an intelligent “First Cause”.



The ‘evolution’ of Christianity (at least in part) seems to keep this philosophical debate continuing. God is the supreme all-powerful, all-knowing authority and creator of the universe. That sort of flies in the face of free-will, don’t you think?

If God knows all ‘before’ it happens, than it means that all things have been determined “predestined”. The oldest forms of Judaism, Christianity, and Muslim religions including many today, include a doctrine of predestination.

Given those circumstances “Jesus” makes sense as a redeemer of sins would be absolutely necessary because it was thought that we actually had no free will. Not that we were bad, mind you, but that ‘evil’ existed which would lead us astray – and this was predestined, so a savior requesting only belief that he is God can forgive anything you do that causes harm.

But of course religion evolves and it evolved when people realized – Hey, why are you blaming me? Why are you holding me responsible? Was I not ‘made’ this way? Was I not led astray by the forces of evil?

Oh heck no – you have ‘FREE WILL’. So now you must take responsibility for your actions.

Well – I could really have fun with this – but I’ll move on to an in-between ideal called indeterminism (so-called by William James) also means fee-will.

The quick and short of it is this: Freedom of will exists insofar as we are limited in our choices in any given circumstance. This does not have to disrupt the chain of cause and effect – obviously we act, behave, or are put in motion, because we have been affected by a previous cause. If the action we take is a self-determined action of free-will (not a reflexive survival action) that we are actually making a choice and the outcome of that choice will go on to be the cause of some other action in the chain.

This is not to say that ‘free-will’ rues the day – not at all. In fact sometimes we must choose between very limited options, in situations we would not wish to be in much less have only the choices we are faced with. But that’s where our sense of ought (responsibility) is supposed to come in. We choose based of what it best, what we have been ‘taught’ is best – is that really free-will?

Any - a final question - since you mentioned that it is Judeo-Christians who defend free-will - I wonder, do you think atheists are all determinists???

Yes – in most of the sciences we look to cause and effect to support our theories. Our universe has proven to be a rather mechanistic place functioning deterministically through the laws of nature. All parts of the universe, including humans, function under the laws that guide motion and matter.

This philosophy is often referred to as ‘Hard Determinism’, in which an unbroken chain of cause and effect extends from the most distant universal past to your individual decisions today, and well beyond us to all matter in the universe.



Well I see a problem right away in that genetics are actually part of the argument that upholds the deterministic view. If we function “strictly” though genetics then we are acting reflexively (as in making choices purely based on survival outcome). Furthermore, if cause and effect were followed back to the origin of ‘first cause’ we would have the ‘formula’, so-to-speak, for how that DNA was created and encoded.

The “leap” you say is taken comes when “unknown” information is transformed into a specific design by an intelligent “First Cause”.



The ‘evolution’ of Christianity (at least in part) seems to keep this philosophical debate continuing. God is the supreme all-powerful, all-knowing authority and creator of the universe. That sort of flies in the face of free-will, don’t you think?

If God knows all ‘before’ it happens, than it means that all things have been determined “predestined”. The oldest forms of Judaism, Christianity, and Muslim religions including many today, include a doctrine of predestination.

Given those circumstances “Jesus” makes sense as a redeemer of sins would be absolutely necessary because it was thought that we actually had no free will. Not that we were bad, mind you, but that ‘evil’ existed which would lead us astray – and this was predestined, so a savior requesting only belief that he is God can forgive anything you do that causes harm.

But of course religion evolves and it evolved when people realized – Hey, why are you blaming me? Why are you holding me responsible? Was I not ‘made’ this way? Was I not led astray by the forces of evil?

Oh heck no – you have ‘FREE WILL’. So now you must take responsibility for your actions.

Well – I could really have fun with this – but I’ll move on to an in-between ideal called indeterminism (so-called by William James) also means fee-will.

The quick and short of it is this: Freedom of will exists insofar as we are limited in our choices in any given circumstance. This does not have to disrupt the chain of cause and effect – obviously we act, behave, or are put in motion, because we have been affected by a previous cause. If the action we take is a self-determined action of free-will (not a reflexive survival action) that we are actually making a choice and the outcome of that choice will go on to be the cause of some other action in the chain.

This is not to say that ‘free-will’ rues the day – not at all. In fact sometimes we must choose between very limited options, in situations we would not wish to be in much less have only the choices we are faced with. But that’s where our sense of ought (responsibility) is supposed to come in. We choose based of what it best, what we have been ‘taught’ is best – is that really free-will?

Any - a final question - since you mentioned that it is Judeo-Christians who defend free-will - I wonder, do you think atheists are all determinists???

....and some people should walk down to the water and keep going straight out:laugh

What happens if you live on or a near a beach??? Huh? Huh? I'll tell you what happens. You normally like it and like walking on it. You are an exception.

You know what I hate? People who think their opinions count for anything and get all pissy and whiny when expressing dissatisfaction.

as I see it

according to Einstein's math, time is a discrete finite entity. If you could step out of it and look in, everything happens all at the same time. We are just forced to experience that time linearly

so everything that has happened will happen and is happening right now

so everything you do you've already done

so whatever choices you make you've already made and you're locked in

so while I believe in free will I also believe in destiny

Keep it illegal.