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Edited by
Inkracer
on
Sat 03/14/09 06:32 AM
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Those aren't facts. They are only found in the bible. That is only one source. They are believed to be historical facts by the majority of scholarship. no they are not! find me someone who is not mentally insane that can prove to me that these "historical facts" have any backing outside of the bible. another thing that irks me, you know how jesus was born of a virgin mother. why is there no other evidence of a virgin woman giving birth outside of the bible. how did the romans not know of this and keep record of it? it seems like kind of a big deal. Heck, not even all the NT gospels write about the virgin birth. 
Pretty important piece of the story to leave out of sections of the holy book, no? |
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one reason why I believe Christ did not Rise from the DEAD. Zero credible evidence. Fact #1: After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea in the tomb. This fact is highly significant because it means that the location of Jesus’s tomb was known to Jew and Christian alike. In that case it becomes inexplicable how belief in his resurrection could arise and flourish in the face of a tomb containing his corpse. According to the late John A. T. Robinson of Cambridge University, the honorable burial of Jesus is one of "the earliest and best-attested facts about Jesus."{15} Fact #2: On the Sunday morning following the crucifixion, the tomb of Jesus was found empty by a group of his women followers. According to Jakob Kremer, an Austrian specialist on the resurrection, "By far most exegetes hold firmly to the reliability of the biblical statements concerning the empty tomb."{16} As D. H. van Daalen points out, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions."{17} Fact #3: On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead. This is a fact that is almost universally acknowledged among New Testament scholars today. Even Gert Lüdemann, perhaps the most prominent current critic of the resurrection, admits, "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’s death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ."{18} Finally, fact #4: The original disciples believed that Jesus was risen from the dead despite their having every reason not to. Despite having every predisposition to the contrary, it is an undeniable fact of history that the original disciples believed in, proclaimed, and were willing to go to their deaths for the fact of Jesus’s resurrection. C. F. D. Moule of Cambridge University concludes that we have here a belief which nothing in terms of prior historical influences can account for--apart from the resurrection itself.{19} Those aren't facts. They are only found in the bible. That is only one source. They are believed to be historical facts by the majority of scholarship. Your little bible-thumping scholarship believing it, does not make it true. |
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Well Eljay, the way I understand it, evolution does not happen overnight. I could be wrong.
I've heard the same thing. How convienient. Sort of justifies the lack of demonstratable evidence to say it takes a few million years for this to happen. But hey - it's a fact you know. Just take our word for it. No wait... can't relly on human testimony. Now what. Sounds like a religion to me. The thing is Elijay, we have posted evidence after evidence, and each time you just brush it off, without actually looking at it. For instance: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html Also, the big difference between Religion and Science(and Evolution) is that religion is set-up for "just take my word for it"(i.e. Papal Infallibility, in layman's terms, if the Pope says god told him, you have to take it on faith as being true) In Science, you have peer review. Basically, you come up with a (testable) theory, it has to stand up to people trying to disprove it. Also, you have to keep in mind the Scientific definition of the word "theory", which, is basically, an idea that ties a group of facts together. Inkracer...about your article: ALL that is occurring there are mutations ....which is all still occurring WITHIN ITS OWN KIND. It is still BACTERIA!!!! In other words, the bacteria did not become something of an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT KIND!! It is still bacteria..still occurring within its own "KIND". And btw, creationist have NO argument about the mutations occuring.... because in this case, the mutations did not mutate into anything other than what it already was. So..that "opinion" stated at the end of the article , was just the author's "opinion" only. Does any of this help make things a bit more clearer now, Inkracer?  
You might want to read everything before you respond. The article isn't just some scientist's opinion on what they observed. Before a scientific article is written and published, the experiment undergoes a peer review. Before the article was written, other scientists tried to disprove the results, and couldn't. I will always trust the scientists that are actually working on trying to understand the world around us, more then someone who uses a book that is approaching 2000 yrs. old simply has a weapon against learning, and reason. |
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one reason why I believe Christ did not Rise from the DEAD. Zero credible evidence. Fact #1: After his crucifixion, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea in the tomb. This fact is highly significant because it means that the location of Jesus’s tomb was known to Jew and Christian alike. In that case it becomes inexplicable how belief in his resurrection could arise and flourish in the face of a tomb containing his corpse. According to the late John A. T. Robinson of Cambridge University, the honorable burial of Jesus is one of "the earliest and best-attested facts about Jesus."{15} Fact #2: On the Sunday morning following the crucifixion, the tomb of Jesus was found empty by a group of his women followers. According to Jakob Kremer, an Austrian specialist on the resurrection, "By far most exegetes hold firmly to the reliability of the biblical statements concerning the empty tomb."{16} As D. H. van Daalen points out, "It is extremely difficult to object to the empty tomb on historical grounds; those who deny it do so on the basis of theological or philosophical assumptions."{17} Fact #3: On multiple occasions and under various circumstances, different individuals and groups of people experienced appearances of Jesus alive from the dead. This is a fact that is almost universally acknowledged among New Testament scholars today. Even Gert Lüdemann, perhaps the most prominent current critic of the resurrection, admits, "It may be taken as historically certain that Peter and the disciples had experiences after Jesus’s death in which Jesus appeared to them as the risen Christ."{18} Finally, fact #4: The original disciples believed that Jesus was risen from the dead despite their having every reason not to. Despite having every predisposition to the contrary, it is an undeniable fact of history that the original disciples believed in, proclaimed, and were willing to go to their deaths for the fact of Jesus’s resurrection. C. F. D. Moule of Cambridge University concludes that we have here a belief which nothing in terms of prior historical influences can account for--apart from the resurrection itself.{19} Those aren't facts. They are only found in the bible. That is only one source. |
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just some simple questions here. how can there be so many different gods? (practices of different religion?) are people like mormans or jews etc. wrong for not believing in christianity? how can "the god" be around for thousands of years, then all of a sudden in the 1800's mormons pop up? then scientology pops up in the 1900's? to make it clear i am a believe in none of these silly bed time stories you call religion. however, it would be nice if someone could answer these for me 2. A person is separated from God because of sin. If he or she does not do anything about it they will die that way, separated forever. There must be a payment for sin. You or I cannot stand before a holy God in the condition we are in. God is perfect. He is the only being who's reason for existence is in himself. Islam has no payment for sin, neither do any of the other world religions. In Christianity God enters into humanity that he might become that sacrifice for the sin of mankind. Its the only religion that solves the problem of sin. Well, apparently, neither does Chrisitianity if a murdering cannibal like Jeffery Dahmer can be admitted to heaven while a wise and altruistic man like Ghandi can't be. What price street cred? Because that's the only logical explanation for this sort of 'justice'. -Kerry O. "no one is righteous, no not on, all have turned away and fallen short of the glory of God" This is another thing I don't get about religion. Why willfully believe that there is a defect of some sort in us that needs to fixed. I don't really see the point, and I don't really see how it is healthy... Do you mean the immature inherited evil we are without the guide of religion? As though we are naughty children who cannot control ourselves or be self responsible without the guidance of a book of doctrines developed by power hungry men. 
Yeah, Basically. I really don't understand the whole "We Are Sinners, by nature, and we have to spend our lives begging for forgiveness" or the Scientology "We have Implants from the E.T. Dictators that we need to remove" Ultimately, I think that thinking like that is very unhealthy(Many faithful politicians would welcome a nuclear war, as they would view it as the beginning of Armageddon). Ultimately, I do feel that Religion is a virus that mankind needs to eliminate if we are to survive. Otherwise, it won't be just us we are killing, but Every other animal that has as much a right to live as we do. |
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one reason why I believe Christ did not Rise from the DEAD. Zero credible evidence. 
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Topic:
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the government grants us political freedom of religion. most religions on the other hand don't grant us that freedom. . . . Absolutely correct, Drew! Except church and state are in cahoots... "You keep them dumb and we'll keep them poor." said the politician to the priest. The really sad thing about it is, simply because of their views on religion, none of the Founding Fathers would get into office today. |
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Well Eljay, the way I understand it, evolution does not happen overnight. I could be wrong.
I've heard the same thing. How convienient. Sort of justifies the lack of demonstratable evidence to say it takes a few million years for this to happen. But hey - it's a fact you know. Just take our word for it. No wait... can't relly on human testimony. Now what. Sounds like a religion to me. The thing is Elijay, we have posted evidence after evidence, and each time you just brush it off, without actually looking at it. For instance: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14094-bacteria-make-major-evolutionary-shift-in-the-lab.html Also, the big difference between Religion and Science(and Evolution) is that religion is set-up for "just take my word for it"(i.e. Papal Infallibility, in layman's terms, if the Pope says god told him, you have to take it on faith as being true) In Science, you have peer review. Basically, you come up with a (testable) theory, it has to stand up to people trying to disprove it. Also, you have to keep in mind the Scientific definition of the word "theory", which, is basically, an idea that ties a group of facts together. |
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just some simple questions here. how can there be so many different gods? (practices of different religion?) are people like mormans or jews etc. wrong for not believing in christianity? how can "the god" be around for thousands of years, then all of a sudden in the 1800's mormons pop up? then scientology pops up in the 1900's? to make it clear i am a believe in none of these silly bed time stories you call religion. however, it would be nice if someone could answer these for me 2. A person is separated from God because of sin. If he or she does not do anything about it they will die that way, separated forever. There must be a payment for sin. You or I cannot stand before a holy God in the condition we are in. God is perfect. He is the only being who's reason for existence is in himself. Islam has no payment for sin, neither do any of the other world religions. In Christianity God enters into humanity that he might become that sacrifice for the sin of mankind. Its the only religion that solves the problem of sin. Well, apparently, neither does Chrisitianity if a murdering cannibal like Jeffery Dahmer can be admitted to heaven while a wise and altruistic man like Ghandi can't be. What price street cred? Because that's the only logical explanation for this sort of 'justice'. -Kerry O. "no one is righteous, no not on, all have turned away and fallen short of the glory of God" This is another thing I don't get about religion. Why willfully believe that there is a defect of some sort in us that needs to fixed. I don't really see the point, and I don't really see how it is healthy... |
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I cant address every situation. I dont know the Church's position on every event. I do know, its important that we look to Christ. He is the author and founder of Christianity. You'll never believe anything if you judge each worldview the way you are judging Christianity.
All I am doing is holding religion(yes ALL Religion) accountable for it's actions. I refuse to accept any cop-out answers, when the evidence is clear. How do you explain the actions of Stalin, Mao, ect. Stalin's actions, and subsequent killing was done because of Socio-Political reasons, not religious ones. From a very short online search, I would also say that the motivation behind Mao was Socio-political. Now, where their actions right? No, they weren't. But with there actions, the world is not blinded by what is written in some book, and can judge there actions objectively, something that cannot be done by most with actions that are clearly religiously motivated. |
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I cant address every situation. I dont know the Church's position on every event. I do know, its important that we look to Christ. He is the author and founder of Christianity. You'll never believe anything if you judge each worldview the way you are judging Christianity.
All I am doing is holding religion(yes ALL Religion) accountable for it's actions. I refuse to accept any cop-out answers, when the evidence is clear. |
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Edited by
Inkracer
on
Fri 03/13/09 05:15 PM
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so nubby, youre saying a person is seperated from god because of sin... priests who **** little boys/girls..sin the church itself, being on of the largest businesses, if not the largest business on earth, living wealthy, building massive structures, wearing ridiculously expensive robes, and yet so much poverty in this world..sin will your almighty god forgive these people? would you forgive a child preditor being of such great faith? and for you to say that because i dont believe in your god i am a sinner? but ill give it to you for being right that all religions are man made (including yours). to me anyone with a belief that there is an almighty god cleary has a mental disorder. First of all you never judge a philosophy by its abuse. Becareful when you point the finger at the church. You forget about all the church does to help poverty, sexual abuse, ect. Those in power do more than you may think. All sin shall be forgive men, even the most unimaginable. This is because Christ sacrifice on the cross cost him so much. For the first time in ETERNITY the Father as it were turned his back on him. You mean, like excommunicating the doctor who performed the abortion, and the mother who took the 9 year old girl to get the abortion. Instead of the 9 yr. old's father, who raped her, and caused the need for the abortion? Also, when you look at Historically, what the church has done, it's not judging it by the abuse. You have the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, or even it's modern day stance against condoms in AIDS-riddled Africa. |
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so nubby, youre saying a person is seperated from god because of sin... priests who **** little boys/girls..sin the church itself, being on of the largest businesses, if not the largest business on earth, living wealthy, building massive structures, wearing ridiculously expensive robes, and yet so much poverty in this world..sin will your almighty god forgive these people? would you forgive a child preditor being of such great faith? and for you to say that because i dont believe in your god i am a sinner? but ill give it to you for being right that all religions are man made (including yours). to me anyone with a belief that there is an almighty god cleary has a mental disorder. still didnt answer me nubby.... Don't hold your breath. |
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Yes, stoning was an old testament practice used by a group of people chosen by God to be Holy. The payment for sin had not come yet in its fullness. God chose this group of people and no one else, and revealed himself to them in a special way. Because of this he had certain laws that had to be followed. Today we are under new covenant with God. God is HOLY.
Why is it that "god" can't do things that humans have no problem doing. He had to send his son/himself to be killed to forgive us? Why not just forgive us? I have forgiven people who have wronged me, without requiring a blood sacrifice. Doesn't that make me(and everyone else who is able to forgive without murder) better than god? Now, why would it be okay then, but not okay now? If the bible is the "word of god" as you claim, why is it now not acceptable to stone people? People don't read holy books as "that was good for then" they read the books as "It's the word of god, it's forever!" God has done more than enough for you or I to be forgiven. God is long suffering, slow to anger, abounding in mercy. He shows us this at the cross, where for the first time in eternity He was separated as it were from himself, as he took sin upon himself. Anyone can be forgiven, God made it so easy. But without the blood sacrifice, it is impossible to see God, for he is holy. We cannot stand in his presence in our present state. God is willing to forgive you if you ask. The reason stoning people is no longer practiced is because a new covenant has come in between God and His people The full price of sin has been paid. Your Holy Book tells a different story The reason why stoning is not acceptable anymore is not a theological reason. Society Evolved. Now, to keep it's power, the religious have to claim that it is "just a story". Also, I am still waiting for an answer on how you know that Jesus is the true story, and not any of the gods, from the 1000 years before Jesus, who share the same story with jesus.. |
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Yes, stoning was an old testament practice used by a group of people chosen by God to be Holy. The payment for sin had not come yet in its fullness. God chose this group of people and no one else, and revealed himself to them in a special way. Because of this he had certain laws that had to be followed. Today we are under new covenant with God. God is HOLY.
Why is it that "god" can't do things that humans have no problem doing. He had to send his son/himself to be killed to forgive us? Why not just forgive us? I have forgiven people who have wronged me, without requiring a blood sacrifice. Doesn't that make me(and everyone else who is able to forgive without murder) better than god? Now, why would it be okay then, but not okay now? If the bible is the "word of god" as you claim, why is it now not acceptable to stone people? People don't read holy books as "that was good for then" they read the books as "It's the word of god, it's forever!" |
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What basis do you have for saying there is evil in the world? Is this not an appeal to your own relative moral feelings and opinions? Why are your feelings authoritative?"
What basis do I have for saying evil is in this world? Because there are wars going on, because there are a number of people out there willing to kill(you and me both) simply because we don't believe in their god. We have people using a line in a book to deny other people of rights, simply because they are different. Where did i ever say my feelings were authoritative? But if your an atheist what is going on in the world is just relative to how you feel. So, if you get you morals from the Bible, how many heathens have you stoned to death? How many people who work on the Sabbath have you killed? The bible CLEARLY states you are supposed you are to do both. |
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3. I agree with you most all religion seems to be manmade. In Christianity we have something different, something real, a mystery. "In the beginning was the word" Christianity is just as man-made as the other religions. Christianity's "holy" book is filled with contradictions, and so much blood and gore that it is in no way symbolic of the "loving god" that we are supposed to believe that god is. Hell, it's the Christians that are actively fighting against Science, because fact contradicts the "good book". |
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The fact that you recognize evil in the world is a suggestive argument for the existence of God. Why?
Because if evil exists, then good exists. If good and evil exist then a moral law exists. If a moral law exists then there must be a moral law giver to judge right from wrong, good from evil. God can do anything power can do. He will not do that which contradicts his own nature. "All things are possible through God" must be taken in context and in light of other scripture. 1. Because I can recognize the difference between acts that benefit people(good) from acts that are detrimental to people(bad) does not mean that there is a law giver. Murder isn't bad because a "god" said it was(and if you believe that, then your god is a hypocrite, killing countless people throughout the bible) Murder is bad because society, as a whole, has decided that murder is bad. If there was a 'moral law giver" then more than 2 of the 10 Commandments would be laws.. 2.So basically, "All things are possible through God" is only supposed to be used when there are cases that Science has disproven what the bible say.(i.e. Human Parthenogenesis/the virgin birth) Yet another circular argument, and cop-out. Science cannot disprove nor prove what God can nor cannot do. This is the area of philosophy and logic. The bible and philosophy fit very well together. 1. Scientific Fact: Human Parthenogenesis(aka Virgin Birth) has NEVER produced a living child. 2. IF it were to happen, the child would be a clone of the mother. |
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What basis do you have for saying there is evil in the world? Is this not an appeal to your own relative moral feelings and opinions? Why are your feelings authoritative?"
What basis do I have for saying evil is in this world? Because there are wars going on, because there are a number of people out there willing to kill(you and me both) simply because we don't believe in their god. We have people using a line in a book to deny other people of rights, simply because they are different. Where did i ever say my feelings were authoritative? |
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Cool Article
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