I don't like being disturbed either because I hate explaining myself over and over again, hence the reason I picked up the trick of waving. You've got to look busy though, like you're on your way to doing something else, or they might take it as an invite.

Good to know. :)

Sharpshooter - eloquent.

Stay cool. :)

Every single member of their congregation has the right to vote as they see fit, which in a way is their "voice" or freedom of speech. Those churches can even tell their congregation how they want them to vote. I don't even have an issue with that.

I do however have an issue when more than $20 million is raised to push at this agenda. It's no longer about the freedom of speech of individuals, but a large organization, even faith based impacting legislation. By definition:

spe·cial-in·ter·est group (plural spe·cial-in·ter·est groups) or spe·cial in·ter·est (plural spe·cial in·ter·ests)


noun
Definition:

group trying to influence government policy: a group seeking to influence government policy in favor of an interest or issue (source: http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861711410/special-interest_group.html)

is exactly what they've become. I'll be happy if their tax exempt status is revoked or if they stay out of legislation.

Every argument has two things that need to be addressed.

1.)The issue.
2.)The solution.

In this case you approach the issue, for me - cutting remarks and defamatory comments. Even seen in this thread, people kicked out the original topic and attacked each other personally. Unlike science, there are no absolutes when it comes to religion, and the unwillingness to listen is a major problem. In fact, the "you're wrong I'm right" syndrome is poisonous.

The solution - knock out the idea that you're absolutely 100% right. (You're in this case is a generalization, targeted even at myself.) Even at 90% right means you're willing to even just consider what another is saying. If in the end you still think you're right, the next best solution is to find a way to cope with the idea that someone else disagrees with you, without turning it into something personal.

I even derailed this from the original line of thinking. It's not about who is right or who is wrong, there are plenty of other threads discussing that already, it was meant as a reminder to be open and at least more tactful in how one deals with a disagreement. My bad! I apologize for adding to things getting off track.

You talk about it like it's just passive meek people getting to getogether in little private churchs just sharing their spiritaulity.

Those people don't truly matter. I don't even know why those people bother calling themselves "Christians". They should just say that they believe some things in teh Bible particualr with respect to Jesus and other than that they should denounce the organized religion called "Christianity"

The organized religion called "Christianity"? There is no organized religion called Christianity. You have Catholics, that's a religion, Protestants, that's a religion, Lutherans, Latter Day Saints, the Church of Christ - all religions. As you have correctly stated, fractured, and they have all decided to believe in different ways.

I haven't talked about little old ladies playing bingo in basements, that's a deflection. Christianity as a whole is not this massive war machine as it sounds like you're making it out to be. If I were to read your posts and had no other information I'm sure it would sound like Christians are raising tanks and nuclear weapons to eradicate Islam. Who is in charge of this religious march? How is it being organized? Why have I not heard of the new Crusade?

America was put together with the idea of freedoms. To be able to say what you want, to practice your faith as you see fit, and many other things. Jefferson decided that the only real way to do that however is if you took religion out of government. England had many turnovers throughout the years of changing religions, and the people suffered for it.

When I see things like a coalition of Christians, namely Catholics and LDS who banded together to push forward Proposition 8 in California - I was riled up. I was very unfriendly and even mean to those I discovered were in agreement blindly with their church leaders. Again, people who don't care to listen. My main point was that when a church pushes a political agenda they're no longer a religious institution and their tax exempt status should be revoked, because they cross the line into a special interest group. If they don't want legislation interfering with their doctrines they need to stay out of legislation. Many people are still pissed off about it and I really do think that the government should have stepped in to stop it, or at least started making them pay taxes on the hundreds of millions that they collect every year. There are many small pushes akin to that which rightly anger me.

Quite honestly Abracadabra, it doesn't matter what I say, you're not in the mind-frame to see anyone else's point but your own. I think you are a very intelligent man and have a lot going for you, but I concede, this is going no where. I hope the best for you in your endeavors. I don't like the horrors done in the name of any God but religion as a whole I personally don't see as evil and destructive. I've known too many people that it's done good for. I understand you disagree with that point and that's okay. I have had my own struggles with religion and the fanaticism. I was only wishing to provide a different view.

Have a good day!

Cheers!

So many, many, many examples of exactly what I was talking about. Interesting...

Two sides, neither willing to listen.

Abracadabra said:

I feel truly sad that so many people seem to think that it's either Christianity or Atheism and there really aren't any other choices.
------------------
There are other choices. I was using those two because they're the extremes. Religion as a whole is just like minded people getting together to be sympathetic in how they interpret their faith. What's so bad about that? I'm sure your argument will be something to the effect of - but look at the horrible things they do when they're together! In which I say, why don't you ever look at all of the wonderful things they do when they're together?

Let's take your model of argument and place it on another topic, just so perhaps you might see how it has cracks. Your main argument is that Christians who don't follow the Bible verbatim are therefore creating their own religion and aren't necessarily Christian.

You're American. Do you agree with slavery? No!? What!? America was founded on the backs of slaves! You don't believe in slavery then you're not really American! You're creating your own type of nation! Wait - other Presidents came in and changed the way we do things? So did Christ in the New Testament. He came in and redefined how things were done and what laws to follow. Christians haven't always gone about things in the best of ways but neither has our government.

Compassion, tolerance, civility - these are things Christ taught and you don't need to be a Christian to follow them. They're really guidelines of humanity. He really knew what he was talking about. Again, I'm not Christian, but I think he was a neat guy.

Your other argument is that the Bible is complete garbage. Myths and fantasy garbled together by man. I'm not as fond of the Old Testament but there are some neat things in the New Testament. For me, when they "introduce" Christ, that's when it got interesting. :) If it helps, maybe look at it as a learning tool. Aesop's fables are also good learning tools - I guess in all of this is I wish you didn't push at the Bible as though it has no merit. I don't believe in its validity either, especially knowing some of its history and how many different versions there are, but the general message is still the same.

All in all it's not God and religion that are the problem, it's people. People are bound with the balance of good and bad and we sway back and forth. The Bible is just a book of stories. Set it on a desk an it's not going to hurt anyone. Two people pick it up and interpret it differently - one does a lot of charity work and spreads the ideas of love, ect. The other goes on a tyrannical path and condemns those who don't fall in line with his thinking.

Atheism is exactly the same. Abracadabra and funches are just as, if not more, passionate than the Christians who have expressed their views in this thread. Abracadabra, you've found your truth in not believing in the Christian God and in a way you want to save others from their folly in their beliefs. How different are you really from missionaries who knock door to door who want to save your soul in your non-belief?

The point of this thread was in a way lost. It is possible for everyone to get along. It's just fine for you to not believe in the Christian God and it's just dandy for them to continue to believe. My God is less omnipotent and leering. I believe in flow, in energy, an underlining current that we are all connected in. We have the ability to affect it with positive energy or negative energy. I believe in balance, not necessarily right or wrong. I've studied many religions and taken the best aspects - or at least what I think the best aspects are, and assimilated them into my life. Some people tell me that I have the basic ideal, but I'm missing pieces, others tell me they never looked at it that way, and some just look at me like I'm crazy. I don't mind any of the responses, my "faith" isn't for them, my faith is for me. It's how I cope and deal with life and I think in general I'm a good person, perhaps a bit selfish, but still overall good.

All three of you seem like your responses are bitter. (Spidercmb, funches, and Abracadabra.) Spider, you are being provoked, let it go. There's no sense in an argument where neither side cares to listen. Believe what you will and let it give you strength. You're right in your faith.

Abracadabra, I very much understand where you're coming from. I saw the holes and inconsistencies in the Bible and it angered me - a lot. Everyone I knew ascribed to the same beliefs and so when I walked away it wasn't just my faith, but my community as well, which made me even more bitter, because none of them understood or even cared to try. I use to get in countless debates and I became just like them but on the other side.

funches, other than semi-supporting Abracadabra and provoking and argument instead of a debate, I'm not sure if you're trying to make a point.

In the end, the moral of the story is, I should probably keep my damn mouth shut and stay out of highly emotional topics.

Thanks, it's what my little sis calls me.

I have a confession - I used to be on both sides. When I was religious I was something of a zealot trying to save everyone's souls. I really just wanted to be helpful but I see my mistake now. Things happened, my faith was shattered, and I became bitter and an extreme atheist trying to prove that the Bible was just as mythical as the Odyssey. I was really kind of a jerk about it.

I let go of my animosity, I realized it too was making me miserable, and I didn't like being so negative. I then have come to my own conclusions of what God is, it's not the Christian God, but I'm happy with it. I'm highly stubborn and realized my big problem was that I never listened - so I suppose my advice comes from my own experiences. I'm more open now than I used to be.

I'm a graphic designer, I do things for the web and for print. If you haven't found a solution yet, send me a message and we can discuss details.

A few of the topics that I've browsed through have shown me that there are some things that will never change. There's this struggle, if you will, generally between Christians and atheists. You have the atheists quoting facts and using science to explain why God isn't real and you have Christians using anecdotes and rhetoric or testimonials to prove why He is real.

From the beginning of each argument about this certain topic you have the two sides who absolutely refuse to listen to each other. All they want is to prove their point with whatever methods they choose and have completely closed their minds to the other side. Both have already chosen their opinion and no matter what is presented won't look at it with sincerity. To perhaps answer a question that may be running through your head, I tend to label myself agnostic but even that wouldn't really be correct. However, consider me a passive observer sitting on the fence.

Both wish to persuade the other to their form of thinking and I really do believe that both start off as good natured with genial intent. Things often quickly spiral into heated debates where people leave with anger and discontent. No progress is made on either side and the only thing gained is even more bitterness.

Why then must atheists demand that people who have believed in God their whole lives, lived and breathed those principles and doctrines every day, to suddenly just give up their faith? You can't tell someone who has a religion which is as much a part of them as their skin that they're wrong. Their reactions become explosive.

On the other side, I am picking on Christians a bit, you can't force people to accept your faith as their own, and threaten their souls. Many atheists I've met had bad experiences with faith and have loosed the "shackles". Most don't understand the sort of pressure and worry that sort of change can create and for most that I've known it's been therapeutic to walk away from "God".

In summation, religion is good for some and bad for others. I invite those so inclined to jump into such conversations to maybe take a step back first and really consider, "What am I to gain from stating my opinion?" If it's only a matter of ego - then maybe you should refrain. In the end you won't change their mind anyway.

To each his own. Religion isn't for me but I would never begrudge anyone their faith. Faith is powerful and isn't something to mock. It has moved nations and changed the world. At the same time, I'm not fond of zealots forcing their views down my throat, and having given you the respect to live your life as you choose I would appreciate the same in return.

You are all amazing people, intelligent, and I look forward to chatting with many of you. Don't let ego drive your responses - especially here! Be patient and respectful. Maybe explain what you believe presenting it as open ended instead of fact. Be aware of opposing views and take time to consider them.

Cheers!

Ah, who loves psychology? Raise their hands!

There are missing pieces to this story and so it's hard to give advice. First off, there are many many reasons she could have told him to wait.

It could be that she's immature. Could be that she's trying to set grounds for who is in control, but it also could be that she's trying to figure out what's right for her and what she wants. The best thing to do probably is to talk to her. Don't speculate, get facts - but - only if you feel you need to mediate. She may or may not be up front with you but without delving into her reasons...it's anyone's guess.

Well, if you're me, which you're not, you post a lot. Then you get messages from people and you send replies. Rinse, repeat.

I DO know you. We argued for about ten minutes on which isle the seat covers are on. Jerk.

Just kidding. I'm new too, we can be new together.

Thank you very much! It's been awesome so far. I've never seen so many open arms before.

I'm bisexual and love chatting.

Meh, to each his own. I am agnostic and I do search, I've searched too many religions to name them all here. There are two principles I find in most of them that can be applied to anyone's life:

1 - Treat others better than you would treat yourself.
2 - Be better today than you were yesterday.

Those are my general tenants and I'm friendly with everyone, religious or not. I try not to be bitter about things. It's hard sometimes but to me it's not worth the heartache. I only get pissed when religion moves into politics.

I won't be shy about it - I'm generally not shy. I've said elsewhere that I was raised LDS. There were many stages for me.

1.) I'm raised LDS, everyone I know is LDS, so yeah, this must be right.
2.) My Dad is miserable and so is my family because of it - isn't God and church supposed to make us happy?
3.) GUILT, for everything, every little thought, every little misconduct - I can't even begin to describe.
4.) I'm afraid of my God. What if I'm not good enough?
5.) My "second" Dad started asking me a lot of questions I didn't know the answers to, so I went about seeking them for him. I was astonished to find none of my leaders knew either.
6.) In my research I discovered holes in things, pieces that were missing or scattered, a lot of things didn't make sense. I began to question my own faith.
7.) A Seminary lesson on polygamy in the Celestial Kingdom of Heaven. For those of you who don't know, the LDS have varying degrees of Heaven, and it's actually almost nearly impossible to find yourself in their Hell called Outer Darkness. Yes, even Hitler is going to the Telestial Kingdom. Sitting there perplexed and thinking, well, polygamy would be my own personal hell, I might as well merit it, that was the day my faith or what semblance was left had shattered.

As for the guilt, I've gone to the other extreme. Instead of feeling guilty for everything, now, I have a hard time feeling guilty for anything.

I however define myself as agnostic. I don't believe in the traditional sense of the word God, but I do believe there is some underlining force. My "God" if I can define it is such is energy. I am spiritual. It's something which can be measured and seen. It comes mostly from my martial arts training. You literally take kinetic energy from the ground and it amplifies through your muscles to form an explosion when you strike. For me there is a flow, a current, and when we die we just return to that current. Of course, this is my own personal view and I let others take to what they will or won't. My spirituality has no real right or wrong when turned into good or evil. Things just are. It also moves into what I see as positive and negative, people have the ability to affect that flow and I try to affect it to the positive.

In a nut shell, it works for me, and in the end, that's all I need.

In a word - responsibility.

If something is screwy in my life I take a look, well, am I responsible for this misery? Yes, then I set out to change my habits or whatever it is I'm doing to be retarded. (Which I'm retarded more often than I would like.)

If no, then I try and figure out where the responsibility lies. If it's something I can affect, I try, but I know I won't always be successful and that's all I really can do.

I remember that I can't change or control the world and kind of roll with the punches. The only control I have is over myself so that's what I focus on. I also endeavor to stay optimistic. Definitely easier said than done but at the same time it's worth the struggle. Other people feed off of that optimism and so it effects my environment. I avoid negativity like the plague. (Including negative people.)

That's my coping mechanism.

I still say that any major religious faction that tells its members how to vote is influencing political agendas and therefore no longer religions but special interest groups. Bye bye tax exemption! How often that goes overlooked and it drives me insane. Especially like recently with Proposition 8 in California, I was so insanely pissed off throughout the whole duration.

As for child adoption, I don't know why they're so afraid. I imagine certain guidelines should be made for "single" people who are trying to adopt, such as income and general stability, but it makes more sense to put a kid in a loving stable home than to shift them from center to center, foster care to foster care. There are a lot of people out there with children they had naturally who are now in loving same-sex relationships, but the government isn't taking their kids away.

OfTheLake hit on the head though - it's all motivated by fear, fear which stems from ignorance and a lack of education and understanding. So many choose to just take to heart what their religious leaders say instead of discovering for themselves, because they're also taught to not question what their leaders say. Unbelievable.

I live in "Mormon Country" Utah. I was raised LDS and so I do understand their perspective. They believe with their whole hearts, well, at least some of them do, that their faith is right and proper. Not only that, but when you have "the one and only true church" rammed down your throat every Sunday you really start to believe it. They're not there to annoy you and as corny as it sounds they just want to "save" you. I've come to realize that most people don't believe in their faiths because they think it's the best thing in the world, it's mostly that they're afraid to not believe. Hell is pretty big deterrent for millions. I used to be one of them.

It's a certain level of apathy I suppose, I don't care if they believe what they do, for some people, religion is a really good thing, it's how they stay together, and their faith in their God is what gives them strength. There was a time I thought I would be a jerk and come up with retorts or try to convince them why they were "wrong", but honestly, who am I to say what is right?

I'm cool with religion, I just don't want it in my life, nor do I want to talk to them about it or why I've chosen my life as it is. My general trick is to wave at the missionaries. They see me go home and because I'm being friendly I think they assume I'm already a member. Either way, they never knock on my door. I did have Relief Society come to my door once, but I told them I wasn't a member and I'd prefer them to not come back, and I haven't seen them since. Unless they're being rude people are people, I don't have a reason to be rude either. I don't believe in Christ the demi-God, but I do believe the man existed, and I think he had it right in love for everyone. We, the missionaries and I, may not see eye to eye, but I've got no hate for them, also knowing they have no hate for me.

Just some thoughts.

Thanks Anonymous. I don't have any issues chatting, here or in real life, I'm a Gemini. :) So far everyone has been pretty nice and very welcoming.