Those are the anti-girl next door. All done up, fake and vapid looking.

Would Heather Graham qualify as a girl next door or is she too done up and hot?

I think a more concise definition is simply pretty in a natural way, not wearing a lot of makeup or fancy clothes, and looks like and probably is a nice person. Like the last poster said, most guys can only dream about finding this kind of woman.

The sad thing for me is, if all women were traditionally unattractive or overweight, I wouldn't desire women in my life at all, and I think the same can be said of all guys and a lot of women concerning men.

I've thought about the same thing...I really don't want a second girl to get attached, and I don't want to get attached to a second girl myself. I have no problem "liking" another girl, but to end up liking the girl as much as I like her would be a problem to me because I don't want an inner love triangle of sorts.

Basically, I guess I'm looking for a woman that wants to date but isn't looking for her perfect man. A woman that wants more than a one night stand but doesn't want forever.

And by compete, I mean get me to take my mind off her and think "Well this woman is good, too."

There's such a thing as dating. Women do it too. What am I supposed to do, sit in my home and pine over her while it could be months for her to even want to date again?

A lot of you are a lot more experienced and in some cases older than me. Is it possible to really like someone...someone you actually like as a person and wish you were exclusive with them, but date or have sex with others since they don't want to date you at the moment or anytime soon?

The short story is, I met a girl on facebook. We talked to each other for at least a month every day on the phone before we met, and by that point, I'd already disclosed a lot of personal information because she was non-judgmental. We dated for about a month, and we disclosed more information, but at the same time, weren't completely serious all the time and had a lot of fun together too.

While she isn't perfect, and has obvious dating flaws (not a touchy feely person, not even liking to cuddle with previous boyfriends)...like I said, she's non-judgmental. I was able to tell her a lot of things that would turn most women off...without getting completely into my personal life...I don't drive for personal reasons, and had severe depression issues in the past...and she didn't and doesn't care about any of it. On top of that, she's very low-maintenance...a t shirt and jeans type of woman despite being pretty (in my eyes)...doesn't demand attention like a lot of women...likes mediocre restaurants...doesn't even notice when guys check her out. She's a very secure and mature person.

For these reasons, it's hard to "forget about her at the moment, just be friends and date someone else." I could find someone else that's more sexual than her, but I doubt they'd even let me in the door if they found out I didn't drive or was on medication for depression and still had occasional bad days, and I highly doubt it's possible to find any woman her age that genuinely doesn't respond to male attention and wears ts and jeans.

But at the same time, I'm realistic and realize that even if she comes around and wants to date, it will be on her watch not mine, and won't be anytime soon. And I'm curious I guess to test the waters if someone comes along that could compete with her and give her a run for her money personality wise. T n A don't do it much for me anymore, I'd much rather have a not-as-good looking girl with compatibility, and those are hard to find.

So is it possible for me to put her to the side emotionally and either date or have sex with other women, knowing I really want to be with her?

Using facebook a few times to meet women that I "kind of" knew who they were back in the day but never really talked to them, I can say firsthand that there is an advantage talking to the person at length for a while on the internet and phone before actually meeting them.

I've talked to a lot of women on facebook and myspace and such where it was obvious despite physical attraction we didn't click at all and were two completely different people, and that saved the awkwardness that comes with finding this out on a first date in person usually.

The girls I talked to and clicked with, by the time I met them in person, they were just as nice and attractive, if not better, in person.

Exactly. And for the guys sucking up to some woman you're never going to meet and is never going to sleep with you, shame on you. Having a loudmouth objection isn't being intelligent.

And no, I'm not on here to meet anyone. When you say "I'm just on here for the forums" they tell you to say something else or add something else. If I were on here to meet someone, I'd put up a picture and say something about myself.

And to the guy saying to be a jerk, if you want immature, insecure women, then you're right, being the jerk will work.

What I was saying, like I said in another thread, is that I used to like women strictly for their sex appeal, much like a lot of you at an older age, still like men and women for pure sex appeal. I desire women now that are somewhat attractive, but nice people.

I'm on here for the forums (thus no pic) and to pass time at work. And "my type" is very doable...but unfortunately for you it isn't overweight middle aged women either.

That's why you're 47 and on a dating site.

This is not a nice guy thread. It's an anti-shallow thread for both sexes.

I'm sick of women complaining "He just wants sex"...and they only go for guys that look like complete pricks. I'm a guy, know a lot of guys, and I can immediately spot a good man from a prick. You can just tell. But women are physically drawn to the bad boy/a$$hole look...the guy with the mean looking face and/or big muscles.

Same with men. They're attracted to the "sexy" girls that have the body type that suits them and a hot, b*tchy face.

This is because both of these type of men and women represent a challenge. The regular, cute girl or guy is too easy to get, is widespread in society, and doesn't represent anything of power or status. Getting and taming the hot guy or girl means "Wow I'm special. I attracted this person."

I had a woman tell me that she only dates guys that have athletic bodies and work out. Her explanation "I can't help what I'm attracted to." Her explanation should have been "I can't help what I'm sexually drawn to." I can't help that I'm only attracted to white women who keep themselves in shape, but I can stop myself for going for girly girl bimbos with huge breasts. The general attraction rule applies, but saying "I only like muscles" is like a guy saying "I only like D cups."

My solution (and this will never happen because the a$$hole guy will never commit to anyone, even his female counterpart, the hot girl), the hot people date each other. They're both excessively concerned about appearance, high-maintenance. The guy gets all the hot sex he wants and the girl has the arm candy and validation she wants.

I'm getting sick of women complaining "Guys just want one thing." When you go for these macho, muscular, sexy types, what are you expecting, a discussion on literature? Just like a guy complaining "Why can't I meet a nice, drama-free low maintenance girl?" when they go for these barbie doll nightclub types.

but it isn't real...it's an obsession based on the person's looks and the obsession will eventually fade, and probably sooner than later if you actually hung around the person and saw what they were about.

It's not that us genuine guys don't have the ability or take what we can get, it's that sex isn't that important to us. We actually respect women.

Even if sex is the best thing in the world, I don't plan on sleeping with over 10 or 15 women in my lifetime. Too many "hot" women to keep track of...I really feel bad for guys that don't know what they truly want and just want to have sex with as many women as possible before they die.

I think the problem with women is that they are physically attracted to the kind of men that would just want to sleep around. The genuine guys aren't sexy enough or mysterious enough looking. Women, like men in a lot of ways, want to have their cake and eat it, too...the macho guy with the sweet side who doesn't want to have quick sex.

I agree, crush is a good, simple word for it. But either way, I'm glad I'm over it. While the delusional "highs" feel good and you may as well be in love, it's probably the same feeling, it isn't real.

Well I was more talking about a nice girl too.

For example, I friended a girl on facebook I went to high school with. We never talked whatsoever back then. So we talked a little on facebook, not too much at all. I didn't contact her for a few months, then I asked her how she's been, blah blah blah, and if she ever comes back in town. She said as a matter of fact, she'd be there in a week.

I asked her if she wanted to hang out. We made plans, she never called...then texted a few hours later saying that she overslept but asked if I still wanted to hang out.

So we went out and she was a really nice person to talk to, a woman, not a girl. It felt like two 20somethings clicking, not an immature girl looking for a sugardaddy. Even though it was just a friends thing, since she doesn't live in the area, it was still nice, and that's why I consider women like her "nice."