The information that "SpiderCMB is an elephant" is a belief. Or call it an opinion if you will. It is true information but it is not complete information. As soul, and as you are part of the whole of God, you are all things, including an elephant.

That you are not aware of this only means that you are confined to that which you are aware of. (It is the illusion of separation.) Your awareness has the power to lift itself from your body that you now inhabit and take the body of an elephant if it wishes.

This is the movement of soul. (Some call it soul travel.)

Jeannie

spider,

I have several logical issues with your last response to me.



I disagree with your expressed limitations on 'God's' omniscience. It is a direct contradiction to the definition of the term itself.

Omniscience is knowing ALL things.



This notion, my friend, is false in any sense concerning the biblical rendition of the 'God' of Abraham.

According to the bible, 'God' was the creator of all things, which places 'God' within a timeframe, at least when one is contemplating the logical necessity of the knowledge required before a 'God' could create all things.

'God' would have to know how to create, before this 'God' could observe creation.

All things must pre-exist in order for your claim to be true. 'God' cannot observe that which has not yet been created or considered. Therefore if they are created by 'God', then 'God' must have known how and what to create before 'God' could possibly observe anything other than 'God'.

'God' observing 'God', while 'God' is all that exists, before creation, would be like one finger pointing at itself.

Logically impossible.





Time stream?




This goes completely against your earlier explanation to me concerning why 'God' meddles in human affairs in the Bible. Have you changed your logical stance on that topic?

I'm not going to argue this anymore. I have one last thing to say on the subject of if God knows true/false things. You said "Omniscience is knowing ALL things." Wouldn't "things" defined as that which exists? If so, then you just agreed with my point. God only knows actual facts.



I wasn't clear, but I feel that the meaning should have come through in the context. I meant "Everything God knows (about human actions), God learned through observation". Sorry for any confusion.



"The normal passage or flow of time, and its historical developments, within a given dimension of reality"

If you prefer, I will use "Space-Time Continuum"



No, it doesn't. You can't look at one peice of the picture and cry foul.

God knows all things that will happen in the Space-Time continuum. But only because those thing happen within the Space-time continuum (henceforth called S-T-C). When acting within the space-time continuum, God operates in the present, with full awareness of the future and past. God's behavior in the present is dictated by God's character, NOT God's knowledge of the future. So even though God knew Solomon was going to worship Ba'al in the future, God still blessed Solomon in the present, because Solomon deserved it at that point in the S-T-C. This idea is very difficult to understand, because God does exist outside of the S-T-C, but can enter it at any point at will. What you have to understand is that God knows every action before he reacts to it. God knows every thought before it is formed. Because God stands outside of S-T-C, God sees all of the S-T-C. But when God interacts with humans, God blesses and punishes based on our behavior up to that point in the S-T-C, NOT based on what God knows we will do. So before Adam was created, God knew what the outcome of his attempts to bring the Israelites to himself would be. God's character demanded that he attempt to bring humanity in line. And therefore, since God performed those actions, God was aware of it "before" God performed the actions. I say "before" (in quotes), because it was only "before" the actions were performed in our minds. God's position outside of time means that time has no real meaning in reference to God's actions. All of those actions were performed instantaneously along with the creation of the universe.

Think of the universe as a four dimensional object, which streches the length of time. That is what God created. From the inside of the universe, it appears that God's creation took days of time, but from outside of the constraints of time, creation to judgement was instantaneous.

Think of life this way. We all stand in the front of a train and walk backwards towards the end. We can only see that which lays in the direction we have come from and then only within the same train car. This is how we travel through time. We are not aware of passengers who are closer to the end of the train, because we cannot perceive them. As we move through the train, we aren't aware of the length of the train or who else might be on the train or what actions those other people might perform. God stands outside of the train and sees everything that happens. God see every movement and every passenger.

Hope that helps.

Sorry for the long edit.

Your excuse for God having Joshua to kill babies was because they were "evil." Evil is not normally understood as an inherited thing to people living today except for racists who don't like you because you are a different race.

But if the babies were innocent, why did God (supposedly) have them killed to prevent the probability that they would at some time in the future commit evil acts?

I have asked others this same question and they have told me that the children that were killed were able to "go to heaven" hence they were "saved" from their own "future evil acts and damnation."

Why would they go to heaven just because they were killed before they committed the evil if God was so all fired sure they were going to commit the evil acts anyway no matter what? There apparently is no hope for their souls anyway, as their future is predestined to evil, which means that they had no free Will at all, and so he may as well just damn them all to hell in the first place.

Jeannie

spider,



That is how the definition reads spider.


Your suggested premise is...




If this is true spider, then it must follow that:


'God' cannot know something that is not an actual fact.


Your next one was this:




Falseness and lies exist spider, but are not an actual fact.

That is a fact!

Now for the reminder which I spoke of earlier, when concerning boolean logic:


With boolean logic, which is what you have attempted to use in order to support this claim of 'Gods' limited omniscience, any false statement can be re-phrased in order to make a true statement, therefore, both describe the same notion, they are just phrased differently thereby removing all untruthes.

In that respect, any proposed notion which is false can be changed into a true one, however, no true one can be changed in order to make it false.

Therefore, there can be no such a thing within 'boolean logic' of a false notion or a lie, even though they do exist.

It would be completely illogical to even consider using boolean thought in order to determine the truth when, by it's very nature, lies and falseness cannot exist to begin with!!!!

Falseness does exist. Lies do exist.

Therefore both are things, and 'God' does know ALL things.

'God' also knows that 'boolean' is anything but logic.

Simply put spider:

False does not equal true.


Later on you had said this:



One should not assume to know how much of any given picture another has the ability to perceive.

One must be offended in some way in order to 'cry foul', and I can assure you that you have not offended me.

It was just a ligitimate question, and quite valid, at least I think so!












'God' created all things.

Jeanniebean,

The Bible tells us that the Israelites killed "young and old", it doesn't say "children". But let's say for sake of argument that they did kill the "children". Those children were only alive, because God took mercy on the Canaanites four hundred years before and didn't kill them. God sustains human life, just as God holds all things together. Therefore, isn't life God's to give and take as God sees fit? And knowing that life, death and judgement are all God's to deal as he sees fit, how is it wrong if God decided that these people should all be executed for the crimes that had been commited? Even the children, who would have either been sacrificed to Ba'al or grown up to sacrifice their own children to Ba'al, without God's interference. God's desire was to eliminate Ba'al worship from the world. Ba'al worship was especially loathsome to God, because not only had the Canaanites made up a god, but they murdered humans to please this unthinking peice of metal. So God decided that the most important place in the civilized world would be given to the Israelites. A spirit of fear washed over the people of Canaan as the Israelites approached. Rahab told the Israelite spies that all of Canaan knew that the Israelites were coming and that Canaan had been promised to them by God. Those wicked people could have left, they were warned and fully aware that it was God who had warned them, but they stayed. They could have surrendered, like the Gibeonites did, but the majority of Canaanites choose not to.

What we see is a very corrupt society, which was based on a religion of infanticide being replaced by a society of laws. We see that the Canaanites were given four hundred years to repent, they did not. We see that the Canaanites were given warning to flee, they did not. We see that the Canaanites had the opportunity to surrender, they did not. God didn't choose their fate, the people of Canaanites choose it themselves.

God never gives us anything we can't endure!

This is getting to be really stupid. I'm getting frustrated, so you are going to have to work with me here or this conversation is over.

If I tell a lie, God knows it is a lie. God even knows the lie that I told. I am making a point that knowing "everything" is not possible or useful for God. God knows that I'm a human, so why does God need to know I'm not a frog? God doesn't need that information, because God knows the truth already. God doesn't need any information along those lines. That's the point. If my wording isn't always perfect, then look to the context. Don't quibble about every single word of ever single sentence. It's starting to look like you have no interest in debating what I have to say and you simply hope to prove me wrong. I'm not here to play games. If you want to play games, find someone else.



WRONG. "SpiderCMB = elephant" is "false" information. Aside from that, God doesn't need to know "negative" information. "SpiderCMB is not an elephant" serves no purpose to God. God only needs true information. You are still thinking that God's mind must work like yours and mine. That would only be true if God didn't have all of the necessary information. God has all of the "true" information, therefore God doesn't need any "false" and/or negative information. God doesn't need to know what I'm not, God need to only know what I am. With that perfect knowledge of knowing all truthful information, God does not need all of the vast amounts of false information that exists.

Let me give an example so that I'm very clear.

There are two basic types of information, true and false.

God doesn't know any false information.

There are two types of truth. Positive truth "SpiderCMB is human" and Negative truth "SpiderCMB is not an elephant". Negative truths are statements about what is not true. They serve no purpose outside of attempts of rational (deductive) thought.

This is what I believe God would know about the death date/time of Soandso.

Soandso will die at 2/23/2008 5:30:00.982 AM ET tomorrow.

That's all God needs to know about Soandso's time of death. God doesn't need to know when Soandso didn't die. That's useless information when the truth is known.

Let's look at what most people think of when they think of God's Omniscience.

...
Soandso did not die at 2/23/2008 5:30:00.000 AM ET tomorrow.
Soandso did not die at 2/23/2008 5:30:00.001 AM ET tomorrow.
Soandso did not die at 2/23/2008 5:30:00.002 AM ET tomorrow.
Soandso did not die at 2/23/2008 5:30:00.003 AM ET tomorrow.
Soandso did not die at 2/23/2008 5:30:00.004 AM ET tomorrow.
Soandso did not die at 2/23/2008 5:30:00.005 AM ET tomorrow.
Soandso did not die at 2/23/2008 5:30:00.006 AM ET tomorrow.
...
Soandso did not die at 2/23/2008 5:30:00.982 AM ET tomorrow.

Now which system is more "perfect"? To record the exact positive truth of the matter or the record the negative truth of the matter? Perfection would require total perfection. God already knows all positive truth, why would God need to know negative truth or false information.



This is all addressed above. A boolean statement can be false. It's either true or false that you are a human. To state "CreativeSoul is a mouse" would be a lie.



Turn off all of your electronic equipment then, because they all use boolean logic. Even a lightswitch is based on Boolean principles (on/off) (true/false). Binary is based on boolean principles. 1=true, 0=false. I'm not a teacher, you might want to seek out a website that explains it, because you do not understand the concept.

Logic does not equal the programming of binary code.

Spider is not an elephant.

Get past this spider, then we can resume this talk:

Falseness does exist. Lies do exist.

EDIT: Oooops! I meant 'not'... freud stinks!!!

And as I said, I'm not arguing that. They exist, you can tell a lie. So I misspoke earlier, get past that. Read the rest of my post.

How's this, God knows all information.



I understand these concepts and think about them a lot, but I don't communicate them. So I am having difficulty picking the right words. When something I say makes no sense, one of two things has happened. You have misunderstood what I said or I have miscommunicated what I meant.

Edit:
The concept I was trying to get across earlier, but failed to explain properly is explained in my previous post. It is the difference between false, positive true and negative true information. I don't know if "positive" and "negative" are the right words, but they are the only ones I can think of.

Tomorrow spider, the night is tired for me...

Spider is not an elephant refutes the notion that spider is an elephant.

Therefore spider is not an elephant cannot be a consideration unless there is some thing to refute(which contradicts the refutation).

False does not equal true spider.

All things are true(and already known) in binary code.

All things are not true.

I will address your suggested STC later today or tonight...

Binary code does not equate to 'Gods' capabilities or the consideration of all things.

CreativeSoul,

You need to read my most recent posts.

SpiderCMB is a human (positively stated truth)
SpiderCMB is an Elephant (false)
SpiderCMB is NOT an Elephant (negatively stated truth)

God does not need false information, those would be lies. God doesn't know lies, so that's out.

God doesn't need negatively stated truth, that is useless information, when all positively stated truth is known. And due to the sheer volume of possible negatively stated truth and the fact that it is useless information, it would take away from God's perfection to know negatively stated truth.

Therefore, since positively stated truth is all that God needs to know and since God is perfect, God would need nothing but what is required. Anything else would take away from God's perfection. Simplicity and elegance are both design qualities which humans associate with perfection, both of which are intrinsic to my theory.

An atheist is driving around the city trying to find a parking
spot. He says God - if you provide me a parking spot right now, I'll believe in you and go to church and pray every day. POOF! An empty parking spot appears right before him! The atheist says, don't worry about it - I just found one myself.

In the dualistic worlds there are opposites. Black and white, up and down, true and false.

The dualistic world is created by the Universal Mind. (Mind of God) It exists within that mind where time and space exist.

In the world or reality above the mind, you have consciousness. (being of "god")

Consciousness is intelligent awareness without form. (God)

Then "Form was born"

(In the beginning the world was without form.)
means that the core of all that is ... has no form.
All exists now. There is no beginning and no end of consciousness.

"Truth" in the world of consciousness is all information.

"Truth" in the world of Time and Space has its opposite. We call that "False" and it is according to the laws of opposites and according to our perceptions.

In the world of consciousness God is all things. Including an elephant.

In the world of form, individuals pick and choose what to be.

But they could have been an elephant if they had so chosen.

So truth depends upon where you are coming from, what you decide, and what you choose to manifest.

Jeannie

The ONLY truth I need is KNOWING that God created me and everyone here. Can't we just be thankful for all we have in him? Even the tragic things in life. Just be thankful he cared enough to give us the choice of right and wrong? Although most of us want to choose the right thing, we end up choosing wrong. HOWEVER.... HE WILL ALWAYS forgive us and Love us UNCONDITIONALY!!!

I thought that according to the old testament the only reason we can know good from evil (right from wrong) is that Eve coaxed Adam to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil allegedly AGAINST "God's" orders.

(Is it wrong to run around nude?)

Apparently so. After they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they looked for something to cover up their naked bodies with.

Plus, if you do run around in the nude you can get arrested and end up with a sex crime violation on your permanent record for "exposing yourself in public" if you are not careful.

Being thankful is good. Gratitude will put you in direct contact with the creator IMO>

Jeannie

spider,

You have unsuccessully assumed, once again spider...

This will be my last post concerning this particular matter... enough rope has been let out, and he who pulls it taut has hung himself, once again.

I have read you recent posts spider, the premise is still false, as I have clearly displayed several times, and will once again, yet you do not even seem to recognize the implications, therefore you have asked, so now you shall receive... no pun intended...

A false premise cannot lead one to a true conclusion!

God does and can know all things if a 'God' is omniscient.

Falseness and lies do exist, therefore they are things...

'God' knows all things.

Your premise that 'God' cannot know false information or lies is thereby successfully refuted, along with it's following axioms...

Your overly complex anthropomorphic theory hinges on this spider, without any hinge pins.

You and I have entertained many a conversation between our differing perspectives concerning 'God'. I feel that we are both well aware of the existance of our different views on the matter. There have been many times when I, and many others, have quite successfully(logically) disagreed with your claims. I say successfully because, not only do I, and others, quote your words, which you ask, but also clearly refute the notion, without a hint of any concession.

Almost always, I have witnessed a disagreement with you become a rabbit chase of anthropomorphic proportion, which thereby creates a residual problematic trail much too complex in nature to address in one response. It would be very helpful if one notion at a time would be focused on without supportive evidence which is contradictory, in and of itself. The supporting evidence used to 'bolster' your argument is always composed of personal biblical interpretation(s) and/or empirical evidence.

This also includes boolean 'logic'...

One's attempt to compare computer programming methods with 'Gods' omniscience is completely illogical and borderline insane, if you ask me.

The claim has been logically refuted several times, no matter how it has been proposed...

Boolean logic does not equate to 'Gods' omniscience spider. No matter how many times you claim it does.

Remember this?



Your response was this:



It absolutely refuted your premise, spider... do you remember this statement of yours?



Falseness and lies are things, as you have already agreed above...

'God' knows all things.

The rest was unsubstantiatedly based upon a false premise...

Your game is over, I was unaware of my participation.

Good day spider...

C.S.

I'll return to my original quote...



Normally, when a reference to "God intervening" is brought up - it occurs in the form of the miraculous. Parting the Red Sea so the Isrealites could escape would be an example of this.
Stopping Abraham from sacrificing Isaac would be an example as well. This effected the "anticipated" outcome - not necessarily the outcome that was always intentended. Logically, because God knows everything, it would appear rather moot to say he needs to intervene.



However I think it can clearly be understood what is meant by stating that "God intervenes" without having to drag it through a legalistic comparison with terms like "omnipresent, and omniscient". It being understood that God never really "intervenes" as it were, since he already knows the outcome - any alternative is unlikely to happen - (even so, a gross understatement).

Therefore - this --->



Is something "I just don't agree with... your reasoning."

For man to contemplate the working's of God, and question his omniscience by an act of intervention - and conclude this might demonstrate an "error" on his part does not logically disprove anything. For by what information is man accessing his reasoning?

That is my point on your statement. You say a simple statement of man's logic disproves God's omniscience (or the "Biblical_ God, if you will)? I'm not buying it.