Persecuted christian syndrom here spider? Noone has said that you cannot believe how you want. When you logic your ideas and we cannot make logic out of them then we have to state our ideas. Differences of ideas is inherent as all humans have their own thoughts and perceptions, even of christianity and the bible.

The christian god created the christian evil. He created Satan and threw him in with his beloved sheep. Purpose? To weed out the "worthy" humans from the unworthy of heaven humans.

Evil is subjective also. There are those things, without a bible to teach, we can discern as evil. Then there are the gray areas that are subjective. The religious cult that teaches that sex with children is okay under direction of the bible, the abortion clinic bomber who kills to stop the killing, the terrorist whose god has told him to suicide bomb the school, the government that kills as a form of punishment, etc.... In each of these scenerios evil is subjective dependent on who is viewing it. Because evil by religions definition can be sooooo subjective the laws of the land must intercede in such cases. This law is not from a religion, it is by people who discuss, interpret, look for the just place to stand. Not saying that there are not religious among the law makers but religion cannot be used as it is subjective of what may be right for all, not the religious few.

Thoughts, conscience, perspectives, etc... are all subjective depending on the person who has the them. The preacher who beliees that marriage age for girls is 10, is not speaking for all. The church that shuns homosexuals is not speaking for all. These institutions view these as either allowable or evil and that is not a consensus of all.

Regardless to what they think of themselves religions are not the moral and ethical gage of people. I have seen horrible things done by religious people in the name of their god. Just because they put religion behind it does not make it right and just.

I think I got off subject there for a minute. Evil is created by god and man.

Quite acting so naïve Spider!

You just stated it right here!

Your beliefs require that you denounce all others! And therein lies the difference.

Your beliefs require that you tell others that they are rejecting the word of God if they don’t believe in your religion.

No other religion does this. Except perhaps Islam and maybe Judaism but for all intents and purposes they arose from the same jealous God as Christianity.

And indeed, it’s the jealousy of your God that is causing all your problems.

You demand (as your belief requires) that it is absolutely wrong to put any other God before yours! No other picture of God can be valid. Your choice to worship a jealous God places you in this bigoted position. It’s a mandatory part of your religion that comes with the territory.



So why do you keep pretending that you support a plurality of ideas when in fact you are extremely closed-minded and locked into supporting only a single view of an extremely jealous God at all cost?

This is what you are attempting to PUSH onto others whether you are consciously aware of it or not.

I have no problem with you believing in a jealous God if that’s what you want to do. I don’t believe that God has the human frailty of being jealous.

I believe that God is above jealousy. She’s not going to reject you simply because of how you choose to view her and worship her. I would never tell you that you are rejecting God by believing in the religion that you believe in.

I do point out to you why I believe that religion is bogus. But why do I do that??? Because people like you won’t stop thumping it and making out like everyone who rejects is rejecting God! That’s why!

Chrsitianity brings the mud slinging onto itself by slinging mud at everyone else FIRST!

You can’t go around implying that everyone who doesn’t believe in the biblical God is rejecting God and act like their religions are completely invalid mad-made idea and not expect them to defend themselves.

And how are they going to defend against your accusations! By trying to prove that their religion is more correct? NO WAY! They aren’t out to sell their religion to you!

Since YOU ARE THE MUD SLINGER they are going to attack the MUD you are slinging (i.e. your religion doctrine that you claim is the sole word of God!).

They are going to point out to you that the book is fully of self-inconsistencies, natural-inconsistencies, inconsistencies in what the God(s) of the bible taught differently, and so on. They are going to attack the MUD that you are slinging at them with your claims that it is the word of God. They are going to try to convince you WHY IT IS that they didn’t buy into it.

You see this as a personal attack on your faith.

Well the PROBLEM is Spider that you’re faith isn’t “personal”, you’re making it PUBLIC by trying to PUSH the idea onto others claiming that it’s the ‘gospel truth’.

Well, when you do that people are naturally going to respond with why they don’t believe it to be the ‘gospel truth’. But then you start screaming ‘FOUL’.

But YOU’RE THE ONE SPIDER! You’re the one who’s coming out ‘slinging mud’.

Not just you, but anyone who tries to claim that their religion is the ONLY WORD OF GOD!

Have I ever even remotely suggested to you that you are rejecting God by not accepting the patheistic view of God.

I know I haven’t because it’s not True. The pantheistic God is not a jealous God and therefore she doesn’t care how you think of her. She only cares that you behave yourself and you SHOULD know how to do that without someone having to carve out the rules for you in stone.

It's the jealous nature of the God you chose to believe in that is giving you all your headaches Spider.

simply put, good and evil cannot exist without each other.
If there is no concept of evil, how can there be good?
and if there's no concept of good, how can evil exist?

WOW!!!

With all the 180's you perform from post to post, you end up so dizzy, you 'land' face first, straight on my point, without even realizing it!!!

My point being, that YOU are missing the point ... where :

'FACTS are no longer facts when they are a matter of belief',

and,

'BELIEFS no longer qualify as such when one attempts to support them with (insconsistent) facts.

YOU STILL DON'T GET IT!!!

But at least, you blatantly and quite surprisingly
...admit it!!!

'... My beliefs require that I state my beliefs as fact...'

Now there's the ultimate 'apologetics logicless trap' from hell!!!

As such, it could be seen as hillarious, and rather inconsequential statements.

On a more dangerous note, that is the same insanity trap which mischaracterizes 'Separation of Church and State', and misinterprets the 'Estabishment Clause' of he First Amendment of the US Constitution, through a 'one-way' lens, where the State would have no say in Church affairs, but THE Church (make a wild guess which one), would get to impose its moral dictates on the people, through the State.

Did god create evil???

WHO CARES?!?!?

Some evil lunatics are chipping away at our civil liberties and freedoms, in the US and way beyond, with the most devilish WMD (weapons of mass delusion) of all: blatant denial, lies and deceit!!!

Then if you are asking if GOD created evil you agree that God exists, then If God does exists God is good, so dont beg to differ on a question where we are saying "what if he exists"

Satan
Hitler and many others were created for a Good purpose, they were given a choice to make a "Good" path however, they choose to turn it into somthing evil. Being charasmatic like Hitler was could have been a great preacher in Gods kingdom, however he wanted to kill everyone =), God gives everyone a possibility to do Good, WE must make a choice on what to do, you do make your own choices right? When good things happen do you blame God for the good things? Or just the bad ones........

As clearly outlined by me, on several previous occasions...

'God' as a creator, must be indivisible...



Again, here is how one arrives at this conclusion, without any shifting middle...



'God' always was(a given when speaking of a creator 'God')...

So then...

'God' was all that was... which equals everything that was...(another given)

Therefore...'God' is the only thing which can conceive through itself... prior to anything else...(another given)

'God' was everything, therefore...

'God' used 'God'...

So then,

Everything is of 'God'...

'God' is indivisible...

Voile;

Aren't we essentially saying the same thing here? It matters not if we speak of evil, good, love, hate, pick an action, emotion, feeling... They aren't something we can hold in our hands, like an avocado - and know where it came from without some subjectivity. I just can't think of something that is tangibly evil. Granted, I can think of lots of things that are good, but that's merely an attribute - not a definition.

Now - if we take into consideration your vantage point - that the God of scripture exists only for those who believe he does... Where now does evil come from? Was it "created" - was it "discovered" by man - through his actions? Or some other means? How do we come to some understanding of "Who created evil" that we can come to some agreement about - even if it calls for some sort of compromise of our subjective observations.

i'm sorry, but i have to point out the wrongness of that statement.
God is love-God is good.
evil can not be created from good.

evil is not a thing. evil is a step in a process.
that process begins with pride, adds on envy and gluttony, and
the others...you know the others...

C.S.;

You're logic works only for those who accept the premise that the God you are describing exists. How then does one reconcile who created evil if they see God differently than you, or don't accept any premise of God as valid? If one thinks your premise of God is absurd - would it not follow your logic be so as well?

I never asked if god created evil, I know that in the biblical sense god created evil, I had bible study all through my young life. The bible teaches that we are pulled from both sides the good side and the evil side and we then choose to go with the good or evil. Although you call this free will, the bible really doesn't allow for free will, there is "His" will and all other will. He does not allow that there are more than two choices. Two choices is not free will.

Second my statement was that God=good and everything else=evil is not correct. Religious do not have a monopoly on virtue. Regardless to how they think. Their will is not always the right road. For their followers it may be but that is their choice.

I do not concede there is a god because I cannot, I do not see, feel, relate to an omnipotent being.

Eljay:

Now I wonder...

Do you find the implied premise ('God' was first) in that post absurd?

The first two axioms below directly follow that very commonly implied premise, when speaking of a creator 'God' in monotheistic terms, do they not?



I have always seen this notion presented as such when speaking of a monotheistic 'God' as a creator, without much conflict...

Perhaps it is the awareness that the path of this trail will not lead one to be able to paint the commonly accepted picture of 'God', that one may find it absurd.

It is sound logic, none-the-less... I believe...

In all actuality, those two axioms are a must for a monotheistic creator of all things 'God' (which existed prior to all else) to even be considered...

Are we not in agreement thus far?

They REQUIRE IT? What is the punishment for having an open mind then? What is the punishment for utilizing FREE WILL? FREE SPEECH FREE THOUGHT? You are REQUIRED state your "beliefs" as a FACT? Astonishing!



Nobody cares if you do or not. Really.



Okay. Here they are..The Facts:

1. The Bible is myth.
2. They lied to everyone.
3. Jesus is not the son of God.
4. He was not born on December 25th
5. His mother was not a virgin
6. He did not die for your sins.
7. The Crucification was a play.
8. There were about 17 other son of god saviors in myth who died for the sins of mankind, had a virgin mother,etc.
9. There is no proof Jesus even existed.
10. Witnesses who claimed to have seen and known Jesus were also made up. It was all fiction mixed with fact.

This is not my opinion. These are the facts.




We don't begrudge you your beliefs. We just don't take kindly to you telling us we are sinners, or that we are rejecting the "word of God" because we don't believe the biggest lie of all time.

Jeanniebean
High Priestess of the Universal Life Church of Brutal Truth and Honesty.

If you believed something, would you pretend that you didn't?



Thanks for answering my above question.



Your reading comprehension must be on a completely different level from mine, I can't find anywhere that I have called you or others sinners in this thread.

As Eljay pointed out, my discussion of God and evil makes perfect sense. As I pointed out, paradox isn't a simple subject. The fact that you don't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. I'm sure that there are many subjects that neither of us would understand, but would make perfect sense to someone with the right education.

I did not refer to you directly. Why are you taking it personal? I meant of course CHRISTIANS in general who have laid claim on the word and concept "SIN" to such an extent that no other religion dare use it on them.

Or I could say that they (Christians) are all sinners because they have rejected my truth and my belief that all things in existence is God. How dare they reject that fact.

Jeannie
High Priestess of the Universal Life Church of Brutal Truth and Honesty.
(Damn that takes a long time to type that title in. Well, now you know who I am. He he he)

And yours require that you denounce Christianity. Your point is? And besides, you will be hard pressed to find me denouncing the beliefs of others. What you will find is that I speak with conviction about my own beliefs. There is a world of difference between saying "My beliefs are the truth" and saying "Your beliefs are a lie". EVERYONE should believe that their beliefs are the truth. There is NO offense in stating that you believe your beliefs! By having a belief, you are implicitly stating that it is the truth. But saying "Your beliefs are lies" is a completely different thing. It's stating that someone else doesn't have the same rights as you have. The theory of "Plurality of ideas" means that EACH person has the right to believe that their beliefs are the truth. It is uncouth to call another's beliefs lies. There is nothing that I can do to stop you from denouncing the beliefs of others and there is nothing I can do to stop you from picking your nose in public and eatting your mucus. Both actions are perfectly legal and both show a lack of maturity, sophistication and social graces.

And yes, I know your excuse. "My belief is that Christianity is false!" Yeah, that's a childish dodge, which should be beneath you.

Maybe if you didn't mean it directly at me, you should have used the word "Christian" rather than the word "you"? But of course, you are completely blameless in the misunderstanding, huh?

No I would not. But I have discovered that not everyone knows the real truth as I do, so out of respect for them I patronize them by saying to them that everything is simply an opinion or belief. Which is true. I don't want to harm them psychologically
by revealing the truth to them before they are spiritually ready for it.

Jeannie
High Priestess of the...etc etc etc.

Here's what I love about these forums. You have just stated that you have an exclusive knowledge of the truth. Something, which Christians are accused of, but only Abra and Voil have actually claimed. AND NOBODY WILL CALL YOU ON IT, NOT EVEN THE CHRISTIANS. I love that! It makes me LOL. I love this forum for the LULZ.

Of course I am completely blameless, for I am "without sin."
The word "YOU" is also used as a plural. And YOU are a Christian, and YOU DO SPEAK for all Christians when you tell us how they all Believe. At least that is the impression you give. I did ask you if you had spoken to all Christians when you stated how they believed, and you did not reply.

Jeannie
bla bla etc et.