there is no evil

I'll ask now.

IF ANY CHRISTIANS DISAGREE WITH ME ON MY STATEMENTS OF DOCTRINE IN THIS OR ANY OTHER THREAD, PLEASE STATE SO HERE.

God and evil both are a direct result of greed!

Silly spider, I did so on your request. You invited me to state my belief as FACTS. Do you not remember? If you do not remember, then read your thread again silly. Your words will be forever embedded in cyberspace for all to see.

I am tired of this bantering so I will bid you goodnight.

Jeannie
High Priestess etc etc.

God is yet a figment of your imagination with no binding to stand on yet evil is an everyday reality that derived of the imperfect animals we are...... Therefore there is no possible connection between the two......

Perfect 'catch-22'. If they do disagree, then they can't really be Christian (by your assessment), and if they don't (which they probably won't, even if they really do disagree, just to avoid public disunity in regard to a common belief system) then you get to smirk, and say 'tolja!'.


An Impossibility Theorem on Self-Belief
http://economics.uchicago.edu/download/szentesbelief.pdf

Anyone who calls themself "Christian" can answer. For someone who believes in Christ, but denys his Godhood or claims that Jesus was simply a pantheist...those people's opinions wouldn't count. Anyone can take Jesus' ministry and twist the meaning, so when I asked my question I was directing it to those people who are Christian by the traditional meaning.

My point is the same as Voileazur’s and many others who have been trying to get through to you for the better part of a year now.

I do notdenounce Christianity! There is nothing wrong with believing in Christianity. If you want to believe in Christianity be my guess! I’m sure that God will be very pleased with your devotion no matter how you picture God.

What I denounce is other people telling me that if I don’t believe in the Bible I am rejecting the word of God!

And since this is the stance that many Christians take they leave me no choice but to defend against their accusations in innuendos that anyone who doesn’t believe that the Bible is the word of God is rejecting God.

And I’m sure you’ll deny it, because you always do. But, you, and Feral, and Art, and a few others, are constantly belittling other people’s faiths by suggesting that they are either rejecting God’s word or they are angry with God, or that their pagan and Atheists views are an arrogant self-serving rebellion against the law of God.

I don’t know how to tell you this Spider, but it’s the arrogant Bible Thumpers like you guys that cause everyone to lash back at you!!! You are constantly proclaiming that their beliefs are self-centered, and rebellious against God. That’s a FACT, whether you realize it or not!

And that is the MIRROR that everyone is holding up to you to try to get you so SEE that YOU are the source of your own mudslinging here! If you people would simply quit telling everyone else that they are rejecting God can can’t possibly be righteous because of it, then they wouldn’t feel a need to sling that very same mud right back in your face!

And clearly when I say you people I’m not just talking about the people I mentioned in this post, I’m talking about all Christians who suggest that other people who aren’t Christians are rebelling against God.

It’s disgusting!

And that’s my POINT Spider. Is this coming through yet, or do you STILL not get it????

As long as Christian fundamentalists are going to tell me that I’m being rebellious against their God I’m going to come right back in their face with why the Bible can’t possibly be the word of God!

The harder you try to shove it down my throat, the more violently I’m going to regurgitate it!

No one is telling you that your are being rebellious against God because you’ve chosen not to believe in Pantheism.

And Therein Lies the DIFFERENCE.

Get it?

I’m not telling YOU that you are being rebellious toward God. But that is precisely what you are trying to shove down my throat whether you realize it or not. That is what you are doing!!!

I’m sick and tired of hearing about your spoiled brat jealous God who takes temper tantrums if he isn’t the sole center of attention. It’s truly sickening and pathetic. It’s a childish ignorant view of God.

So there. How do like them apples!

Don’t mistake that as denouncing your religion! Because I’m not saying that you are being rebellious against God! I’m not saying that you can’t be a righteous person! I’m not suggesting in any way that you are lost and need to find your way to God.

You can have a perfectly fine legitimate relationship with God believing that he’s an arrogant old jealous fool. God doesn’t care what you believe because that doesn’t make it so! As long as you love God and love your fellow man that’s all God cares about.

But how can you claim to love your fellow man if you continually pass judgments on the relationship between other men and God?????

Who put you in that position????

Does it tell you in the Bible to do that????

I think not!!!

You better read that book again!!!

Jesus said, to preach what he taught to THOSE WHO WANT TO HEAR IT!!!!

He said to wipe your feet and walk away in peace from THOSE WHO AREN’T INTERESTED!!!

So what are YOU DOING???

You’re trying to RAM the Bible down everyone’s throat whether they want to hear it or not!!!

You’re basically telling people that if they don’t believe the Bible is the WORD OF GOD they are being rebellious and rejecting God.

Why are you doing that??? You and Feral and Art and a few others. Always suggesting that people aren't Christians are either rejecting the word of God or being self-centered and rebellious.

Jesus never asked you people do that!!!!

You people who make proselytizing your life’s work should spend more time trying to UNDERSTAND the bible instead of THUMPING it on the heads of other people!!!!

And I’m willing to bet that even after this post you STILL don’t get it!

And unfortunately you probably never will.

In fact there have even been true Christains on this very forum who have posted at how upset they are with the behavior of you Bible Thumpers!

You people are the ones who cause mud to be slung at Christianity because you people are the ones who are flinging mud on everyone else!!!

You're a mud-flinger Spider!

Too bad the vocal christians I know are not members of JSH, they would disagree with you. To them god created everything good and evil, for his own purpose and they feel we cannot understand why because he is god and it is not our job to question, just to trust him. So I guess we will see if any on here come to the challenge you have placed at their feet.

There have already been plenty of Christians on this site who have disagreed with many of your views. Do you think people haven't been paying attention?

They aren't going to step forward here to get involved in a direct dispute wiht you. In fact, it's this kind of IN YOUR FACE Christianity that they disagree with in the first place!

Let's face it Spider, you've been acting like as if you are the spokesperson for Christianity ever since you logged on day one! I VIVIDLY REMEMBER THAT DAY TOO!!!!

You came on like GANGBUSTERS quoting scripture after everyone’s post and the very first thing that people started asking you was whether you had any thoughts of your own to post.

I VIVIDLY REMEMBER THAT DAY because you became quite upset!!!

You started complaining that the BIBLE IS YOUR THOUGHTS and you were upset that people had a problem with that!

Sounds like blaspheme to me, but let's not get into that.

Yep, I vividly remember that day because I thought it was the weirdest thing I ever saw.

That is unfortunate. Do they own computers? Perhaps you could convince them to join just to tell me that I'm wrong.

There, there Abra. I know you don't.

I'm off to bed, don't forget to take your medicine.

I think there have been Christians who have disagreed with my methods, but not with my views. I would be interested in meeting some of these Christians who believe that God created evil. I would love for them to explain that from a scriptural perspective.

A lot of Christians on this very forum have stated that they disagree with your views. I'm not going to name them because that's no my place, but I've watched them meekly post disgreements with you VIEWS!

Also, A gentleman (or maybe it was a lady) already posted the following scripture earlier in this very thread. I couldn't find his/her post again, but I didn't find the scripture in the Bible,....



There you have it, a confession directly from your own God's book. And supposedly these are the words straight from the horses mouth so-to-speak because is says, "I the LORD do all these things".

How can you argue with your very own "Word of God"?

Your God says he created evil.

Now exactly who are YOU to argue with your own God???

One bad thing about believing in a book Spider is that you can't dispute what the book says unless you want to claim that it's ambiguous or has been lost in translations. But as soon as you do that then you're lost in murky water with an ambiguous God that can't be trusted anymore.

Your BOOK says that your God created evil. Period.

That's the Word of God according to you.

So how can you denounce what you claim to support????

Like I say, to argue that it’s a ‘bad translation’ is to argue that your supposed word of God has been lost to ‘bad translations’. How can we trust anything in the Bible if it’s full of questionable ambiguous translations????

The King James Version of the Bible that I have clearly states the above verse just as in the quote that says that God created evil.

So there you have it. God answered the question for us. He’s guilty as charged and he has confessed himself in his own book.

owooooooooo!
just takin post that's all

Light is the opposite of Darkness, right?

Is peace the opposite of evil? No, it's not. If we look at the Hebrew meaning for "ra'" (evil in this verse), we see the meaning clearly. "Trouble" or "Adversity" would be the appropriate translation in this case. Trouble and Adversity could be seen as the opposites of peace. You see, this verse isn't saying that God creates moral evil, but rather suggests that God is in control of natural evil such as storms and famine.

This is a very commonly acknowledged flaw in the KJV. In fact, if you google "Isaiah 45:7", you will find dozens upon dozens of websites explaining why the "evil" translation of "ra'" contradicts many scriptures, so we know that the translation is flawed.

Here are a couple websites that support what I just said...

http://www.carm.org/diff/Isa_45_7.htm
http://www.comereason.org/phil_qstn/phi025.asp
http://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/iamwrong1.html

The problem with continually spewing deliberately deceiving statements, is that we all lose track of what is true fo the poster.

What is it that ends up being true for the poster through the confusion and contradictions he commits:

I personnally find the following statement accurate :

"There is NO offense in stating that you believe your beliefs!"

Accurate, based on the fact that a personnal belief is, by definition, something in which you believe. Also, an intrinsinc part of believing, is constituting a belief as TRUE FOR YOURSELF.

Now, given that above statement is accurate to me, the statements below strike me as deliberately FALSE, and MADE IN BAD FAITH:
"My beliefs are the truth"
"EVERYONE should believe that their beliefs are the truth."
"By having a belief, you are implicitly stating that it is the truth."

Believing one's beliefs, which would be true for ONESELF, gets twisted under your very eyes, to falsely be mischaracterized as 'THE TRUTH'.

'THE TRUTH', is very different from 'what is true FOR ME', or 'the truth FOR ME'. An adult cannot be committing this gross falsehood UNKNOWINGLY, OR UNCONSCIOUSLY. That is as far as you can from what is true.

The above 3 statements, are founded on intentional deceit and bad faith. They represent gross and insiduous manipulations, and deliberate twisting of meaning.

This no longer is a matter of opinion. We're talking about very basic dialectics. The language used, and the manner in which it intentionally misused, is dishonest and misleading.

It starts from the personnal, and legitimate subjective (relative) domains, and illigitimately moves to the public, collective and absolute domains. My truth, or YOUR truth, will never imply or mean 'THE TRUTH'!!!

Stand corrected on this other lie of yours, that Christianity (or Chrisitians) are being denounced. Nothing could be further from the truth.

What is being denounced, are the statements which land as blatant lies to some of us. False statements made by posters whom hide behind the 'bible', 'god', or the words 'christian' and 'christianity' to impose their bigoted views.

It is GROSS MANIPULATION AND DELIBERATE DECEIT, THROUGH TWISTING AND MISCHARACTERIZING, ALL DONE IN BAD FAITH, that is what is being denounced, and NOT CHRISTIANS (Christianity) whom conduct themselves in a 'Christ-like' manner (the vast majority of Christians posting on these forums).

Finally, it is FUNDAMENTALISM, nothing to do with Christianity, that is being denounced.

This religious fundamentalism, carried by a very few individuals here, whom confuse this free and open discussion forum as some sort grounds for their 'not-ready-for-prime-time APOLOGETICS-CADETS-IN-TRAINING'.

State your beliefs, as '... that which is TRUE FOR YOU', the way most every Christians do on these forums,
... rather than this gross and obnoxious falsehood you keep committing that '... WHAT IS TRUE FOR YOU, ... IS THE TRUTH...'.

Simply 'open' and 'close' your statements as '... that which is TRUE FOR ME (you)', and no one will ever bother denouncing your statements again.

Saying the truth, about what is true, will set you free my friend

Try it!!!

Voil,

Here are a few quotes from Abra, denoucing Christianity. In one quote, he outright admits that he denounces Christianity.













There is a world of difference between saying "My beliefs are the truth" and saying "Your beliefs are a lie". A world of difference.

Once again, I am simply commenting on the tendency to attack Christians for stating their beliefs, while non-Christians do the same thing with every post.

I know that you defend and cherish your right to mock the beliefs of others and you should know that I defend your right to do so too. While I think it is uncouth and extremely unsophistocated to mock the beliefs of others, I believe in free speech. I just think we can do better. I think we can raise, instead of lower, the level of the dialog.

No there isn't!!! It is another of your self-serving, and deceitful manipulations.

The more YOU will claim that, 'YOUR BELIEFS ARE TRUE', the more you will find the likes of 'abra', myself, and others denouncing that gross manipulation, and preposterous lie.

The statements you keep posting only have one common denominator, and it is not Christian-like spirit in any way shape or form.

Your statements are rather poisoned with the delusion that there is a 'god' that has named YOU, HEAD of HIS ARMY. YOUR delusional mission is to do NOTHING OTHER, than fight, correct and otherwise defend at all cost this 'truth of yours', which you have totally confused as 'THE TRUTH' for all (which you have been 'chosen' to guard!!!).

Spew your twisted lies and mischaracterizations all you want about 'myself', 'abra' and others.

We, as opposed to you, have NEVER presented our views, opinions, convictions, beliefs or counter beliefs as THE THRUTH!!!

And that my friend is the WORLD OF DIFFERENCE you fail to recognize and understand, between 'truth for oneself' and 'the thruth, and between you and the real world.


YOU ADDED:


We have long thought the debate could be elevated.

Here are some dialogue building suggestions which have been offered to you over the past year, and which you have chosen to ignore:

- Come in GOOD FAITH, and come from SPIRIT!!!

- Drop your 'apologetics army' duties when you post. There is nothing to defend. Chrisitanity is not under attack. The only counter-attacks, are form those whom are tired and preoccupied with the fundamentalists dangerous delusional sense of being at war with everything which doesn't fit their view of things. Apologetics may have made sense at a time when Christians were 'eliminated' for their beliefs.

The only motive of fundamentalists today, is that maybe, ONE religion can no longer dominate and control entire civilizations as it once has. To turn that into the perverse and deceitful false threat that 'Christianity is under attack...' is a dangerous delusion, and certainly does nothing to elevate the dialogue (that has to take place with others whom YOU constitute as ennemies).

- Speak as a 'real' flesh and blood' human being, instead of pretending to be a 'walking bible' or 'illuminated soldier of THE TRUTH'. In addition to being a delusion and a lie, it is most disturbing, and most definetely forces the dialogue to remain stuck in confusion, and delusion.

- Use the proper dialectics and syntax forms to state your beliefs, from a '... true for me (you)...' perspective, as opposed to the dangerously delusional '... THE TRUTH...' perspective you have insisted on imposing.

There are other obvious and basic 'dialogue conducive' guidelines.
I am sure that if you are sincere about your newfound intentions, tose principles will start being manifest trough your future posts.