Eljay:

Notion is a noun... a noun is a person, place, or a thing, as is an idea...

Your claim is llogical, but I will use your logic to show you another side of your example..

Notion = idea = no thing

it would follow, then...

Conscience = idea = no thing


Which did you claim came from 'God' then?

Hey GuideHenry,

I am reminded by your avatar of a stately king, who sits at the end of a huge banquet table, with all of his servants working and a jester soon to please...

There have been several clear answers from different people, myself included, after the issue at hand became convoluted...



OleJeb even quoted scripture, which Christians claim is the word of 'God'...

Hi Creative

I'm busted.

Abra,

You and Voile seem to be qualifying the idea of evil and good with "can be evil/good" or "does evil/good". These idea's are not in question. Actually, the question is a simple one. Jeannie has posted it and asked it rather simplistically so that we can all comprehend it. What does evil look like, and where can we find it? Since God created it we should be able to look all around and see it. So how about a concrete example instead of word games or logic problems with shifting middles as Creative is so want to do. Name something that was created evil. Not with the ability to be evil, or that is subjectively evil so we can get to the answer to the OP before it hits 50 pages.

Actually Jeb,

What translation is this?

- mine says "... I bring prosperity and create DISASTER;..."

Just curious.

Okay, let's use some C.S. logic.

A tree is a noun. A Dog is a noun. Therefore a dog is a tree.

See anything wrong with this picture? Your logic is Ionesconic.
You should write plays.

Is there a difference between evil, and socially and culturally determined values of right and wrong? Is there a difference between evil and sin?

Be careful, the answers to these questions may indicate if evil is created by God or Man.

The catch is this: If 'evil' is man-made, than was the creation of man, without flaw?

Would a 'good' creation include an inherently 'evil' capacity?

This is syllogistic.
Ionesco was more generally absurd.

It is obvious in the biblical sense god created evil. As I have said before how else can he weed out the worthy of heaven and the unworthy? Also, he creates it and names all the evils, right?

Now from my own ungodly view, man is the creator of good and evil in this world. His mind and spirit is capable of acts of great good and disgusting horrid evil. It is in his mind that makes him different or superior to all the other animals that this good and evil is formed. Also evil is subjective just like reality, perspective. What is evil for one is not evil for another. That is why we need the laws of the land which cannot be subjective. Not religious laws but laws of and for all of the people

Eljay:

You asked for someone to name a thing...

I named a thing... easy enough...

You did not like it, I suppose...

Evil is a thing Eljay, just as much as a conscience is a thing, and just as much as good is a thing. It does not make them equal, just a thing.

You claimed that a conscience is of 'God', but an idea is not.

What then, would you determine the distinguishing factors to be?

It is not mylogic you just used, it was my attempt to show you how yours did not work.

I have not claimed that evil is a dog, or that a dog is a tree, or that a tree is evil...

They are all things though, none-the-less...

A notion is a thing.

There is clearly a difference between a thought, a thing and an action. There is also a difference between inherent genetic predisposition and instict.

So, can an ACT, carried out by INSTINCT be evil?
If genetics creates an intellectually flawed human, is that man's mistake? Or Gods? If an intellectually flawed human is not capable, say a sociopath, is not capable of "RIGHT" thinking is that "EVIL"? Or is it only the ACTS they committ that are evil?

Again, we have the problem of determining where evil exists and HOW it got there?

If a "good" creation has flawed evolutionary constructs, how can one deny the lack of forthought on the part of a creator?

Hense, the creation was flawed from the beginning. This begs the question, why would a 'perfect' creator, embark on creating anything, which would be harmful to the beloved creations? Obviously such a god 'intended' evil to be a factor in its creation. Since god alone is given the only means of creation, then god, alone, is responsible for all that exists.

Eljay,

Abra and I are not at all suggesting the "can be evil/good" or "does evil/good". You are suggesting such.

You seem to be asking others to refrain from 'word games' and 'approximate logic', when it is you Eljay, whom offers arguments based on such.

Your lastest request is no different:
"... Name something that was created evil. Not with the ability to be evil, or that is subjectively evil..."

That Eljay, is playing 'approximate logic' and 'conveniently assembled' word games. The premise you propose is false. Insisting on an answer, which is founded on an erroneous premise, will never make the premise right.

To claim that 'god' didn't create 'evil' because 'evil' isn't a thing, would suggest that 'god' didn't create 'good', nor 'love', because neither 'good' nor 'love' are things either, as you insist in your claim.

Pointing out the most approximate merit of the premise you propose, by substituting 'evil' with 'good', is an invitation to put an end to the word game, and get back on track.

Nothing in creation is neither fundamentally 'evil', nor 'good'. Nothing is either fundamentally 'love' or 'hate', 'generous' or 'greedy'.

You could just as easily asked:
"... Name something that was created 'GOOD'. Not with the ability to be 'GOOD', or that is subjectively 'GOOD'...".

It's a strawman, as apologetics often like to point out.

The real object of these types of automatic 'sophisms', is for people, whom share the same belief, to 'defend' their shared dogma, and biblical 'god' from any form of association with the notion of 'evil'.

Given that the same group of people insists on promoting that the biblical god has everything to do with the correlate notion of 'good', completely invalidates the 'no evil', disassociation claim.

Did god create 'evil'? I don't know!

But IF 'god' didn't create 'evil', he sure as 'no hell' didn't create 'good'!!!

On the other hand, IF god created 'good', he then sure as 'no hell' created 'evil'!!!

Hmmm? At first it looks like we have a confession from God himself to answer the question without ambiguity.



Ah,… but upon further thought we clearly see that there is no such thing as an unambiguous Bible.

The so-called ‘word-of-God’ doesn’t appear to have any reality. It’s all open to personal interpretation and translation. So what good is it then?

I read the Bible and see Jesus as a pantheist.

I see the Old Testament as nothing more than mythology not unlike Greek mythology.

That’s my personal interpretation.

And evidently personal interpretations are all we can get from these ambiguous writings.

Quite so. But it's not the topic of this thread, else that would have been what I asked. Now - have you thought of anything yet? I see you've looked at all of the ways to interpret going about it. I'm just waiting for you to get to it.

Eljay,

I don't wish to beat this to death, so I won't go over the same point a third time, but I sense you are not quite grasping the gist of it.

And please don't wait for me, I 'got to it' long ago, and answered the host's question. And while I was at it, I simply pointed out that your argument didn't carry the DNA of a 'touchdown'.

I realize you don't want the god you believe in to be associated with the creation of 'evil'. It is your prerogative to believe so. And you wouldn't ever have to provide proof for that beleif.

But if your intend here is to turn that belief into a rational explanation, it will definitely require something other than the argument you have presented so far. As I have shown earlier, it doesn't pass the 'litmus paper' test of minimal logic.

Should you wish to keep insisting on the same premise to support your claim that god didn't create evil, I wouldn't have anything to add beyond what I have already written.

Regards.

I'm going on EBay to see if I can buy some "evil". I am hoping to get it in the economical 12 pack.

'evil'! That's not until next week!

This week's special is on a barrel of 'good'.

Get as much of that as you can get, it will do YOU a lot of ... 'good'!

My friend, you are missing a very important point. God created all things, all material in the universe. God also created moral spirit beings (angels), who had free will. God then created moral physical beings (humanity), who had free will. With their free will, the moral spirit and physical beings created evil.

You guys seem to believe in a false dilemma, that if God didn't create evil, then God couldn't create good. God created all things which are good. God's created moral beings, who had the ability to choose from right and wrong, create evil. Not in the sense in which God can create, ex nihilo, but through their thoughts, actions and inactions.

So you see, God gave us the ability to create. When we obey God, we create good. When we obey ourselves, we create evil.

I hope you guys understand this now, this conversation has grown stale.

God created the heavens and the earth, and they were 'all good'.

God created all the beasts of the earth, and they were 'all good'.

God created all the angels, and they were 'all good'.

God created man and woman and they were 'all good'.

Who created the 'all good' possibilities then.

Who created the 'all good' tree which is blamed for the knowledge of good and evil?

Who created the 'all good' serpent which enticed Eve in the story?

Evil would have to have been created prior to it's installation into the tree of knowledge.

Who created the 'all good' tree?

Who created the idea of evil?

Who decided what to place into the tree?

By the way Eljay, the tree of knowledge is your answer...

The serpent is your answer...

The possibilities are your answer...

'God' is your answer...

Unless of course, 'God' is not a thing either...