tosses popcorn one kernel at a time towards Abra...

well, i thought he was onto something before the 2 mil witness thing...

tossing a couple more kernels to myself up in the air...
catches one but one bounces off the corner of my mouth..

Abra & S1owhand,

It states directly in the Bible that the whole nation (Between 2,000,000 to 3,000,000 people at that point) heard G-d speaking.

Deuteronomy 5:19-25

These words the Lord spoke to your entire congregation on the mountain, from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick cloud – a great voice, never to be repeated – and He inscribed them on two stone Tablets and gave them to me. It happened that when you heard the voice from the midst of the darkness and the mountain was burning in fire, that all the heads of your tribes and your elders approached me.

They said, “Behold! the Lord, our G-d, has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire; this day we saw that the Lord will speak to a person and he can live. But now, why should we die when this great fire consumes us? If we continue to hear the voice of the Lord, our G-d, any longer, we will die! For is there any human that has heard the voice of the Living G-d speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived? You should approach and hear whatever the Lord, our G-d, will say, and you should speak to us whatever the Lord, our G-d, will speak to you – then we shall hear and we shall so.”

Just a suggestion. If you really want to have a truth seeking conversation, rather then ridiculing something I say - ask me where I am basing the info on. Just because you are not familiar with something doesn't mean its not true. Abra, it seems like your education was faulty. I challenge you to find anyone who claims that pre-marital sex is a Biblical (Original old testament) prohibition.

(that's supposed to say POPCORN, but it's hard to see. )

Everyone has their own interpretations of things. Moreover there are so many different translations of the Bible which one are you going by?

I find it extremely unlikely that 2,000,000 people actually SAW God and heard him SPEAK to them and then turned around and started worshiping an idol image after that.

With all due respect that story is harder to believe that the one I was original taught and read.

People who have actually WITNESSED God speaking to them, and then PURPOSEFULLY disobeyed him and started worshiping other idols after that would be seriously abnormal and not represented of the human race I’ve come to now. Therefore I would have to chalk any such story up to being utterly absurd and most likely a fairytale made up by a mythologist.

Why would you believe those stories any more than you would believe Greek Mythology. You still haven’t even answered my fundamental question.

On what do you base your belief that these stories are any more true than any other ancient mythology?

That’s where you are losing me. I see no reason to believe that any of that actually happened.

PreciousLife,

You asked Dragoness on what she bases that the stories were written by men,…

On what do you base your belief that these stories are any more true than any other ancient mythology?

We know that men have made up stories about God all throughout history. They have claimed to have seen God, been talked to by God, and in some cases even to have been God!!!

These common tales that men make up. We know that men make up these kinds of stories.

So why should you pick one of these mythologies and claim that it’s true whilst rejecting all the others?

I would think that you would be the one to have to answer why you believe these tales have any merit over any anthers.

The basis that they were made up by men is clear. It’s the nature of man to make up stories.

So what’s the basis for believing that any of them are any more true than any others????

Seems to me that you’re working backwards assuming that they are true and waiting for someone to prove they aren’t.

as to your question!no.nothing or no one sientific or not, is going to make me denie my GOD.BLESS ya LOV ya.HE does!gen

THAT is one of the TEN COMMANDMENTS>fornication:that means that sex before marriage is prohibit!tho shall not commit fornication.that tells me not to sleep around.if you don't agree .knock yourself out an don't blame me. GEN

Ok, what defines sex then?

Are we just talking intercourse?

How about mutual masturbation?

How about just fondling and cuddling together whilst naked? Would that be fornication?

Where's the line?

What about kissing? Is kissing fornication?

What about hugging? Is hugging fornication?

What about petting? Is petting fornication?

What about Kissing and hugings whilst naked? Is that fornicaiton?

Is having an orgasm fornication?

Where's the line???

When does physical intimacy cross over to become fornication?

Is it just intercourse? Or is other intimacy out too?

PresciousLife,

See, I'm not the only one who "misunderstands" the Bible.

No, I'm afraid it does no such thing. This oft quoted and ridiculously incorrect number is the result of some very wild assumptions. To whit, Moses, in scripture, says that there were 600,000 battle ready men. Using this figure as a baseline, some creative soul came up with the observation that there must have been at least 3 to 5 non-combatants to support each soldier in the field. Voila! 1.8 to 3 million population. Well, sorry, but that doesn't compute based on the initial size of the tribe: 70. There is no way, in a mere 215 years, that the population increased by a factor of approximately 40,000. Each child bearing female, of each successive generation, would have had to have birthed (on the average) at least 66 children, based on the Hebrew census data (see below). The statement by Moses obviously suffered a mathematical error by a probable factor of 100, which is not uncommon in Biblical text translations. Even if the error was only by a factor of 10, the women would still have had to average a generational birth rate of 6.6 per mother, over 215 years.

According to the Hebrew census of that time period, the following was recorded:

First Born Males: 22,273

Using this figure, and the general assumption that there were probably just as many first born females, we end up with 44,546. We can probably safely assume that there were just as many birth mothers as first born children: 44,546. To reach population totals of 1.8 to 3 million in 215 years (including the new females, even using 14 drastically short fertility generations of 15 years each being added into the child bearing formula AND assuming no deaths) would require about 35 to 66 childbirths per mother, respectively.

Abra, check my math!

I know this is a religious thread and all but that was hot abra "eyebrows moving up and down emoticon here" I am in trouble just the description is working for me.....lol

You are correct that the interpretation of what qualifies as sex is subjective. I was taught in my religious studies the thought of sex is just as sinful as the act. And masterbation is extremely ungodly especially for men as the seed should not touch anything outside of the body. Also sodomy is extremely wrong. So who says what is right or wrong? And I know there will be people who interpret what I say as incorrect to what they were taught.

I just have to say this though, lovemaking between two people who care for each other is one of the most beautiful and enjoyable things out of our lives, I cannot see it, any form of it being a sin.

As for the question of how do I know that men wrote the books. I cannot believe you would ask me that!!! How can you say it was not men???? God actually put a pen in hand and wrote a few lines for his own entertainment?? But he cannot contact us on a daily on email? What is up with that??

No need to. It doesn’t matter what the numbers were. The story makes no sense whether there were only 200 people or 2 million. It doesn’t matter. The number of people involved doesn’t change a thing because we don’t have signed affidavits from those people.

One person can claim that millions of people saw something. It’s still just the word of that one person. Not the millions that they claim were present. Only a handful of authors wrote the actual story, and possibly even only one man wrote Exodus. Wasn’t that story supposedly written by Moses himself???

If I told you that millions of people saw a UFO land in my backyard and the aliens came out and told me the secrets of life and then flew away. Would you believe me?

Probably not. You’d probably want to talk to those millions of people who were supposedly here and and saw it, and ask them what they have to say about it.

Ah, I think I get what you're saying now. I think the statement "requires supernatural causation" is probably the antithesis of science. I still think it's a mistake though to say that science rejects anything, just because there's no scientific evidence for it.

Using your own example of "Jesus died for our sins", lets look at the reverse:
"Jesus did not die for our sins"

Science isn't capable of proving that sentence to be true either. But that doesn't mean that science rejects the idea that Jesus didn't die for our sins.

It would be illogical to declare something false, simply because it can't be proven. That would lead to all kinds of contradictions.

How to calculate Exponential Growth Rates: http://www.ldeo.columbia.edu/edu/dees/V1003/lectures/population/example.html

Jacob enters Egypt 1711 BC
Exodus from Egypt 1496 BC

215 years

T = 215 years
N(t) = 3,000,000
N(o) = 70

ln(3,000,000)=ln(70)+r*215
14.91 = 4.24 + 215r
10.67 = 215r
r=.0496 OR 4.96% per year

Does 5% growth per year seem so strange?

Really!

In this day and age if God wants to contact someone all he would need to do is send them an email.

God could send me an email and make it perfectly clear that it was from him within the first paragraph. He would now precisely what to say to me that would convince me completely. I know what that would be, so surely he also knows.

This supposedly intervening God that can do all sorts of miracles can’t even send an email over our modern day Internet???

Seems to me we at least have proof now that he’s not interested in communicating with us.

Jesus said (and therefore Christians believe) that the line is lust. For a Jew, there is no such line, two unpromised people can do as they will.

I believe that the complexity of religion is also a form of ambiguity. Make it so complex that the rationale gets lost and logic is not a problem anymore. This is one problem you do not have with science. At least those who understand it at levels I do not. My father does being a geologist but I have not had enough college to get to this point. He can explain it to me and it makes sense. Religion on the other hand has been explained and explained and explained and....well you get the point. I still cannot get my logic around it. People tell me that it is because I have closed my mind and I disagree. I have opened my mind larger than religion can hold, that is the problem.

If you give some people a set of laws and guidelines and structure they will live happily ever after never questioning the whys the whats the reason, they will just live in the box and happily die there. There are others who want to know the why, whats, reasons, motives, etc.... these individuals cannot be handed the same laws, guidelines and structure and not fudge the box. I am one of those who chooses to ask why. It takes me out of the box but I am also free of the shackles of others making choices for me, I decide if I will choose to live by that law and why I choose. I follow the laws of the land because I see the reasoning for them. They are good for the most part. Societal laws are another thing for me. I buck the system there every chance I get.

Okay I wrote a book and got off subject here. Basically speaking science has nothing at all to do with god. God is a negative in science it cannot be proven or disproven and is therefore outside of science measurements. Religion and science are on two different wave lengths there is not a connection there. Only those religious that want to make the bible factual and scientific have issues with science.

I already told you if I spoke to god, I would know that I was unwell mentally and need to go to the doc immediately.

yup

I know you don't even need that much wouldee. You know I still think of your description of the biblical relationship of man and woman. That was one of the most beautiful things I have ever read. Too bad most men of past ages did not see it that way, women may have waited to revolt..lol

Well, then according to Jesus even pre-marital intercourse wouldn't be fornication if it was done in the spirit of love.

Damn, I wish I would have realize this when I was in my teens!!!

So maybe the Bible isn't all that bad after all and it's just that the churches preach it all wrong.