My logical mind is the part of me that does not accept "big brother". Man created god. He had to have an explanation of the unexplanable so he created gods to assuage his confusion. Science and religion play on completely different planes of thought. There is no connection. Science cannot prove god doesn't exist nor can god prove science doesn't exist. Science has disproven the "scientific" analysis of the bible but this does not uncreate god. All it tells is the truth of the science that cannot support the bible stories. God is not the bible, it was written by men, edited by men, conformed by men, etc... God is a negative in the world of science, there is no way to prove a negative exists or doesn't exists, it is a void of no physical proof, therefore science has no way of measuring god.

As for my seeing some burning bush or something and saying this is the proof of god, I would look for a logical explanation before I would even slightly consider that god did it. I want the scientific explanation of things first and then look at other avenues. We are still babies with the knowledge we have of the scientific world around us so there will be things that will have to be researched and discovered for a long time to come so just because it is unexplanable today, it will not be tomorrow.

Abra,

You just run on and on here, while pretending to be addressing something I have stated. If God himself stood before you, showed you how he created the universe, showed you Jesus' entire life and explained how the Bible makes perfect sense...none of that would be scientific. That's the point I'm trying to get across here, but you keep trying to ignore it. THERE IS NO PROOF THAT CAN PROVE GOD TO SCIENCE, BECAUSE SCIENCE REJECTS THE SUPERNATURAL. That's the point. I'm not saying I am upset with science, why do you say such stupid things?

And to address your later analogy, if god stood in front of me and showed me all you said, I would go immediately to the doc for meds cause I know that could never happen, therefore I am delusional and need help.

Thank you, I appreciate your honesty.

God could never stand before me and show me how the Bible makes perfect sense because it doesn’t.

Period.

You keep pretending that absurd things are possible. Even God couldn’t make sense of the Bible. It’s a self-contradictory doctrine.



It’s not that science rejects that supernatural. It’s that science rejects logical contractions. There’s a huge difference.

The biblical picture of God is self-inconsistent, as well as being inconsistent with the natural world. It’s not a matter of something being supernatural. God would need to be a liar and a fraud for the Bible to be true.

Sure, God could be all those things. But most people don’t believe that God would be so deceitful.

In order for the Bible to be true God would need to tell us that he purposefully deceived us by creating the universe in ways that opposed what we wrote in his book.

For the biblical God to be real he would necessarily need to be a deceptive God.

That seems to be the part that you can’t understand. It’s not that he can’t exist. It’s just that if he does exist he would be far less than perfect, and clearly a deceptive dishonest God.

Is that possible? Sure it is. But who wants to believe in a God that deceives?

Ohhhhhh! SNAP! Great jab there...completely misses the point, has nothing to do with what I was talking about and is a strawman, but I'm sure it made you feel good to post it and that's what counts.



Wow. Abra, I don't even know what to call that answer. Anyone and I mean anyone who understands the concept of science is now scratching their head and wondering "What the hell is Abra smoking?"

Sorry Spider, no “jab” intended.

The Bible conflicts with observational evidence. They can’t both be true. It’s as simple as that.

In order for the biblical God to explain things he would have no choice but to confess that he either inspired men to write erroneous things in his book. Or he fixed up the universe to make it appear that things happened entirely different form the way his book describes them.

Either way he would need to have been deceptive.

The fact is that observations do not match the stories in this ancient dogma. Period.

That’s a fact.

To change that fact would require either changing what the dogma says, or changing what has already been observed to be true.

No ‘jab’ intended Spider. It’s just the way things are. The biblical doctrine just doesn’t match observed reality. Period. One of the two are a lie. The best God could hope to do is reveal to us which of the two are the lie. My guess is that God will say that he had nothing to do with writing the Bible, but he had everything to do with creating the universe.

You may wish to believe something differnet. More power to you.

The bottom line is that Science doesn’t reject the notion of God. It simply isn’t in harmony with the biblical doctrines that describe a particular picture of a god.

As I’ve said, science is in perfect harmony with pantheism. And pantheism is a valid picture of God. So it makes sense that it’s more likely the true picture.

Why continue to support a picture of God that has been shown to be erroneous? People had no problem rejecting Greek mythology for this reason. Why they insist on clinging to Christianity is beyond me. It’s been shown to be just as false as Greek mythology.

No personal ‘jabs’ intended Spider. I’m just telling it like it is.

Interesting topic, Spidercmb.

Methinks you're very right that even if God gave an exhaustive presentation demonstrating to scientists the validity of His word using tangible evidence, that *still* would not guarantee that faith would result. Faith and science are two entirely different entities: Faith flourishes without visible evidence and is relational (a relationship of trusting God), whilst science seeks to explain what we see and is evidential (thrives on evidence).

Even in Scripture when people witnessed miracles, many did not believe. Faith has nothing to do with sight.

I don't think that there is a problem with science and God.
Science is just catching up with God. They now admit that the world is round, just like God says. They now admit that the earth was hung on nothing, just like God says. They now admit that the universe had a beginning, just like God says.

Eventually they will catch up to God.

Art
Art

Well as a scientist and also a spiritual person, I can safely answer no. I already embrace the Bible. But I do not believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. As far as I am concerned there is no contradiction.

If there are new observations I will gladly even eagerly reject the accepted science and embrace the new science. But the Bible is not about science. It is about ethics and concepts of our origin and behavior in parable form. In my opinion the Bible has nothing to say about science and science does not contradict the Bible in any serious way....

I agree with Slow, except that I don't share his beliefs in the bible or christianity. But I find that the bible can be interpreted many ways- especially if you are willing to accept that not all was not all intended to be taken literally.

Science and the bible are not necessarily irreconcilable, and again especially if you are willing to admit that errors in translations and interpretations within the bible exist and need to be taken into account...

I'm not sure what it would be that would make me believe in the bible though...

Peace.

depends on what is meant by "believing in the bible" ...

Oh yes, excellent point. I believe in a lot of things from the bible. I took a class in the bible as historical literature in college and I "believe" in it in that sense... but as for the trilogy, the man jesus christ being the "son of god" , etc.- those aspects are not part of my current belief system. And the old testament god is even more incompatable with my views...

I was thinking of the question more from the traditional supposed conflicts between creationism and evolution. I believe the two can be reconciled if you agree with metaphorical interpretations of parts of the bible.

~ Don’t Miss Out on God’s Love! ~


God is great!, and God is good!
but God is often so misunderstood

She tried to be nice when she threw all her dice
and created mankind from ancestral mice

But men couldn’t see with a brotherly love
that their spirit’s no differnet from the meek morning dove

They had to believe they were closer to God
quite different from doves, but not really odd

So they wrote many pages throughout the ages
pretending to speak with the knowledge of sages

They made up the rules that separate men
and wrote them all down with their arrogant pen

The wrote, “God’s a man!”, so let it be said!
Any soul who will doubt this will surely be dead!

They counted on fingers from One up to Ten
as they wrote their commandments then shouted “Amen!”

For whoever believes in these words that they write
will forever remain in a state of delight!

And those who oppose the words in their book
will be cast in a hell fire by hook or by crook!

Poor God was so sad to see what they’d done
she gave them her nature, a nature they shunned

They couldn’t believe they were like all the rest
that had to believe they were God’s very best!

This arrogant view haunted their mind
and to God’s very nature they were totally blind

They created an idol to worship and praise
and rejected God’s love for the rest of their days

And so we have come to a misconstrued view
that disgraces God’s spirit in all that we do

~~~

I find your answer very interesting.

If you witnessed events that matched the exact description from the book of Revelation, you wouldn't change your attitude about the Bible? I've seen a similar opinion voiced by others here and I find it baffling.

Imagine: Russia and Iran lead a coalition of nations against Israel. Just before Israel is destroyed, fire rains down from the sky destroying the invading armies and capital citys. This is all described in Ezekiel. You just chalk that up to chance?

DISCLAIMER: This is a hypothetical. If anyone comes back and say "That won't happen blah blah blah", then he/she is idiot. This whole thread is a hypothetical. I'm not saying you have to believe in the Bible, I'm asking if the events described in the Bible happened, would it change your mind about the bible.

in a sense i witness things described by the bible everyday. since the bible concerns aspects of human life, good and evil, and god in various ways...

often makes me look at things differently too.

it is fascinating how remarkably common our human experience is among different temperaments, cultures and over the centuries. if you read other literature also - the inferno, bhagavad-vita, shakespeare's plays, platonic dialogues...we all struggle with the same questions and experiences as we learn about ourselves and the world at large.

This is a non-answer. If you saw events unfold exactly as they are described in the Bible, would it change your beliefs. It's a simple question. It's a yes/no/IDK answer.

in answer to spidercmb question, it might take a few things to change my mind about god.

1st appearance i would think i'm just mental and ne psychiatric help.

2nd - psychiatric hospitalization

3rd - id start to think maybe it really is god

4th - more meds and help

5th - ok it's god but why in the name of all that is good does he want to convince me lol

God wants you to have faith.

It's really really simple.

1) Ask yourself "If God exists, would I want to know him?"
2) If the answer is "yes", then you have the desire to believe.
3) Ask God to reveal himself to you. You have to be willing to give up everything for God or you won't get an answer.
4) If you are willing, then God grants you faith through the holy spirit.

It's important to remember that if you hold out anything as a condition of your belief in God, then God won't reveal himself to you. If you think to yourself "I'll believe in God, but I'm still going to X", then God has no time for you. Only to those who are willing to give up everything for God will God reveal himself.