John witnessed it - and Luke interviewed everyone he could find who witnessed it. It cannot be proven that John Mark did NOT witness it, and I'm sure that at the time, enough people had witnessed it to get the story straight. Do you think that anyone who wrote about Lincoln's assasination was standing beside him when it happened. Can you now convince us that never happened?

Creative Soul;

I appreciate the time and research you put into your threads - but I seriously doubt the reliability of the "facts" you deem as "widely accepted". Since you do not provide the original references of where this information comes from, it's acceptability is called into question. When asked for references before - you sited two authors who's opinions are highly suspect, and easily refuted - yet you attributed what they say as fact. Also - you do not thoroughly research your statements. You go to one source and accept it as fact. Please, if you are going to come onto the threads and claim to know the truth behind historical Christianity - then get your exegesis in order. It's one thing to ask a question in the interest of understanding, quite another to ask it with the intent of disproving everyone when their answers aren't matching yours. Especialy without the proper exegesis to support yourself.

As ever - only mentioned in the interest of helping you strengthening your argument, not to discredit it.

I gave you scripture and verse....I guess thats not good enough.....there is a scripture that reminds me of people like yourself.. and here it is

Matthew 13:14 (New International Version)

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
" 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Was not James jESUS bROTHER ALSO A DECIPLE LOL. cOME ON PEOPLE THINK it makes perfect sence he was there we also know about James Jesus brother because of the book of james it is the same james.
So James Witnessed this and so did Mathew was there also in hiding it says that many people weaped for him. Others booed him and cheered violenty at him saying crucify him! Romans taunted him and said where is your God now. See the romans believed Jesus not to be God but then a roman said truly this was the Son Of God.
He then believed see the son for God would only be a son because he would be in flesh it makes perfect sence the concept of the father is because Spirit as Holy Spirit was always his known name and moses said who shall i say sent me and he said tell Them I am Sent you. For did God say at one time tell them the father sent you and he said but who am i to tell them who is my father for we all have fathers.

The only ones who would be close enough to see the crucfixion is James the brother of Jesus to the world. James even knew that Jesus was his God. For he says for if any of you lack in wisdom let them ask of God. James chapter 1 1-5 referring to chronicles chapter 1 verses 8 Solomon ask for Wisdom and Knowledge.

Because creative you had false information and I wanted to give you correct information. Over and over again scriptures have been given and over and over you deny......you need to open your heart and your mind.......Again I say to Creative Matthew 11:25

At that time Jesus answered and said, "I praise The, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou didst hide these things from the wise and intelligent and dist reveal them to babes.

Creative soul is a creative reject Is this all you got questions that people do not have the answers too and yet i had the answer to your question no one was closer but the mother mary and james because james was with mary we also know that mary magoloth would also be there with james for she knew what jesus had done for her all this time.Also another mary there as well which makes three maries but no there was only two marry's.

The truth is Mathew was also there and so was John but they were in hiding to not be found they were not as close as James was and Mary for Mary was the mother to jesus to the earth and even marry knew that her Son was her God The I am. James the Brother to Jesus to the earth also knew that he was The I AM.

People can say whatever they choose about me and my person or their assumed intent of my person...

Plenty here who have their own vindication for what they think of me...

All of THAT is completely irrelevant...




Now then... back to the topic at hand...





I hear and have read of how this 'evidence' has been given over and over again... yet IT HAS NOT...

No scripture exists which directly names a disciple which witnessed the crucifixion...





So then... I will concede at the best scenario which has been given... that John did witness... based on the most common assumption of contextual meaning.

It is not proven to be anything other than subjective interpretation... None-the-less....

It is widely accepted that John, was indeed, mentioned in allusion... as the one Jesus 'loved'. I will agree here, for the sake of further needless argument.






There were evidently many who witnessed, and although there is more than one widely-disputed 'school of thought' against the crucifixion ever happening to begin with, I will not even begin down that road. It is mute to my point of heresay.





Against my better judgement Eljay, I have posted the timeline of Christianity earlier which is held by the Orthodox Catholic Church.

Let us not forget that it is the single most comprehensive and historical account of Christianity's beginnings and the texts thereof... Surely you will agree with it's validity?

If you do not, then where else shall we look?

I am open to investigate ANYcredible evidence of the gospel account and it's authenticity, or lack thereof...

I only hope that we all do...

So then... I ask...

Where did the crucifixion accounts in the gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke come from?

EDIT:

And who wrote the book of John?

I tell you the truth let all those who have ears let them hear.

THE CRUCIFIXION

The Apostle John, with Mary the mother of Jesus, Ruth, and Jude, arrived on the scene just after Jesus had been hoisted to his position on the cross, and just as the captain was nailing the title above the Master's head. John was the only one of the eleven apostles to witness the crucifixion, and even he was not present all of the time since he ran into Jerusalem to bring back his mother and her friends soon after he had brought Jesus' mother to the scene.

THOSE WHO SAW THE CRUCIFIXION

At about half past nine o'clock this Friday morning, Jesus was hung upon the cross. Before eleven o'clock, upward of one thousand persons had assembled to witness this spectacle of the crucifixion of the Son of Man. Throughout these dreadful hours the unseen hosts of a universe stood in silence while they gazed upon this extraordinary phenomenon of the Creator as he was dying the death of the creature, even the most ignoble death of a condemned criminal.
Standing near the cross at one time or another during the crucifixion were Mary, Ruth, Jude, John, Salome (John's mother), and a group of earnest women believers including Mary the wife of Clopas and sister of Jesus' mother, Mary Magdalene, and Rebecca, onetime of Sepphoris. These and other friends of Jesus held their peace while they witnessed his great patience and fortitude and gazed upon his intense sufferings.

To all involved:

For the sake of making progress in this discussion, stop with the unsubtantiated personal opinions. One can claim that (s)he tells the truth simply because they claim to tell the truth all day long. If what one believes is based only on the notion that they believe it to be true, and the only evidence presented for such a belief is individual opinion, then that type of presentation holds absolutely no water, and is a waste of our time. Go leak elsewhere...

I have shown my evidence which supports the Orthodox Christian timeline by showing the accepted Orthodox Christian timeline... from it's own source.

I have given arguably the best case against my claim that is accepted by the institutional church... What more could an opposing agent ask?




On a positive note, I feel this discussion has established a few things up to this point.

1.) The Bible does not specifically name which, if any, disciple(s) witnessed the crucifixion.

2.) It has been accepted between those involved in this discussion, myself included, that it is indicated that the apostle John was an eyewitness to the crucifixion.

3.) The importance of substantiating your claim. Provide the source(s) of your formed opinions, if and when asked. These are just common good will practice, I think all who enjoy an intelligent discourse can agree.


Now then, my claim still stands that Christianity is founded on hearsay (spelled correctly on purpose this time)...

My evidence is the Orthodox Catholic Christian doctrine's own acceptances of the timeline(s) during the religion's early formative years...

In case one questions where... it is here...

http://www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/chron.html

Please be able to provide substantiation for a claim... other than personal opinion...

AMEN

IAMCONVIDENT

My first answers is as follows: John 1: 1-1

What was from the beginning, what WE have HEARD, what we have SEEN with our eyes, what we beheld in our hands handled concerning the Word of Life.(acts 4:20)

John 21: 24-25 This is the disciple (John) who bears witness of these things, and write these things; and we know that his witness is true. (John 15:27)

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT

Matthew 17: 1

And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John HIS BROTHER, and brought then up to the high mountain by themselves.

Note: Mary the mother of James and John Now if you note in scripture about Jesus took Peter, James and JOHN HIS BROTHER.

Now this is the scripture with the icing on the cake

John 19:26 - When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son", and to the disciple, "Here is your mother."


Which proves that John is the person in question....


nuff said....


Debbie 1

Creative 0

Creative;

I think the difficulty with your argument comes not with what the bible says - but what it doesn't say. Are we to presume that because the bible does not list all of the disciples at the cruxifiction that none were there? We know there were - else how did Jesus get to the tomb? Who prepared the burial cloth? And since Luke's account is given based on eyewitness testimony of those who were there - since he was not, what evidence do we have to discredit him? It has been well documented the method of cruxifiction used by the romans. This method of torture has never been questioned. Where did we get that information from - since the bible does not describe that in detail either. Where do you draw the line at what is acceptable in historical accounts - and what is not? Do you question the existance of Confucious, Budda, Mohammid? How do we know any of them existed and weren't just fairy tales?

The fact remains that all of the apostles could have witnessed the cruxifiction. Or none of them. It is quite doubtful that Mary did not. Her account would be all that is needed. And both Peter and Matthew would have heard of it through her, and related it, each in their own way based on the audience for which it was intended. So - there's no definitive conclusion to be drawn. At that point in history there were so few that even cared. To the majority of the population, Jesus was just another Jew who was cruxified. It wasn't until years later that the population began to understand the significance of this event. So it's lack of documentation does not belittle the significance of the event,

very very true Eljay...

Are you saying that John the apostle is Jesus's brother?

Are you saying that there is no possibility that the apostle standing there could be ANY of 'her' sons?

Why could it not be James or Peter?

I have seen a good argument for it to actually be Lazarus.

Would that be John the apostle, John the baptist, John the elder, or any other number of Johns...




Let us examine your 'evidence' more closely then, since my earlier concession of "indicates" was not good enough for you...




Your evidence:

" What was from the beginning, what WE have HEARD, what we have SEEN with our eyes, what we beheld in our hands handled concerning the Word of Life.(acts 4:20) "

>>>>>>> This has no more validity to the issue of directly naming who it was standing there, than me saying 'I like punkin poo'...????? Completely irrelevant to what is at hand. You may as well quoted any other scripture contained, as it would have had an equal value to this argument<<<<<<<




Your evidence:

" John 21: 24-25 This is the disciple (John) who bears witness of these things, and write these things; and we know that his witness is true. (John 15:27)"

>>>>>>> So, the author of this passage claims to be the apostle John, and he claims to tell the truth. What does that have to do with naming which child stood beside 'his mother' ??????? <<<<<<<




your evidence:

Matthew 17:1 - And six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John HIS BROTHER, and brought then up to the high mountain by themselves.

John 19:26 - When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son", and to the disciple, "Here is your mother."

>>>>>>> So the author of this second passage you are claiming is the 'disciple who he loved'. It says that when Jesus saw his mother standing there.

The virgin Mary is now John the fisherman's mother? Why could the disciple not be James 'the just'...Jesus' mother? = Jesus' brother..

Brother as in geneology or brother as in friend in worship?<<<<<<<




feral,

I conceded at indicated that is where I still stand, simply to avoid needless argument which you seem to enjoy...

Keep score all you want, you are fighting yourself, not I.


Not to mention the vast difference between John and the synoptics... Quote them some more... at the crucifixion... which one of the four stories do you believe the most feral... since they are all 'perfect' in your eyes?



Eljay:

It is based on hearsay. Does this completely discredit the validity of the information? Who knows...

First things first... it may or may not be completely accurate.

This is undeniable to anyone who has done the classroom experiment that I mentioned earlier...

I feel like a child who just walked into a room (because I haven't read the full thread), but John was James brother. That scripture is just mentioning that John was James' brother, as far as I can tell.

For what it's worth, John 19:26 shows that the diciple whom Jesus loved was appointed as Mary's caretaker. We know that John was the one who had this responsiblity, so the diciple whom Jesus loved was clearly John. No other scriptures are required.

Of the diciples, Peter, James and John were the closest to Jesus. While Peter and James argued over who would be a better leader for the church, John was silent. John knew his place, he was probably Jesus' best friend, he didn't abandon Jesus, he watched the crucifixion and he took Mary as his own mother.

feral,

I hate argument actually.....But I hate when people discredit the Bible even more......I again say to the creative-meister....I don't have to prove anything and just for the mere content of this thread shows me who likes to argue. Your no better to talk to then rabbit or abra or voile......because somewhere in all your heads you just don't either believe or have the faith to do so. (Which is ok) but please stop this crap (Which it is) for others who have not only faith but belief that the Bible is the word of God.

Score keeping is my way of showing you that I showed you....thats it. No again, if you have a problem with using the scriptures as proof....Well again thats your problem.

And as the scriptures to me again are not stories but actual events....How would you expect me to take it? And again if you even read the Bible which I believe you have not....All the scriptures of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins....are the same.....

Your 'faith' is applauded feral... just don't worship the words...