Health related issues that can be controlled? like being fat, smoking, or drug use?

How about we implement a max of 15-20% body fat passport for people to go into places, to minimize the higher risk people getting the 15% and better sick?

The greater evil... is the road that divides people, yet make them participate in a society with no common values

The greater evil... is the road that leads to a lack of autonomy to the individual

Lots of people died for freedom too, ya know

I was referring to health related issues like myocardial infarction, stroke , aneurysm, subarachnoid brain bleeds , pneumonia , menengitis , pancreatitis , kidney/organ failure , sepsis , immunosuppression , cancer any condition which requires hospital level care .

You didn’t answer my question about shortage of hospitals to meet population demands (covid/non covid) . What is your solution for how hospitals will cope with a large outbreak .. that potential still exists until enough people have immunity ?

I am sure you have heard it said that covid will find the unvaccinated . Are you certain the hospitals will cope ? That there will be adequate resources to ensure everyone gets the care they need . I am certainly not . Even if 90% of NZ’s population are vaccinated .. the strain from hospitalisations of non vaccinated will still overwhelm healthcare . Likely people needing elective surgery /cancer treatments etc., will be compromised unless changes are made . Vaccination buys time but unless other changes are made we face an ongoing predicament .

I would think preserving and protecting life is a common value .. though I agree not everyone shares that value .

Autonomy is all very well when that choice affects only you .. when it impacts on others and creates harm then autonomy can be detrimental . Isn’t that what our justice systems are based on ?? Do you accept law enforcement as necessary to protect society from those who choose to behave autonomously in ways that society deems harmful /destructive . Autonomy is an ethical right but it can also have limitations .

Have you been vaccinated Bob ? Do you work in an environment that is mandating vaccination ? Do you have anyone in your life that is vulnerable to covid ?

I noticed you didn't answer mine either!

1) my solution.... first come first serve. People are being turned down surgeries and dying in their attempts for healthcare to address the Rona as paramount. Here, everybody pays into it, but people are getting refused. Horseshlt.

2) Hospitals will be able to cope less if there are mandates. I KNOW (not heard of) several people in the health care industry that took a leave of absence or outright quit when they saw the writing on the wall. Maybe they can recruit janitors if they watched an entire season of ER or House - as long as they are vaccinated.

3) Our justice system was based on innocent until proven guilty - which is an incredible accomplishment to have made - and I don't think you really appreciate the magnitude of that. The right of the individual supercedes the right of a society. Your argument that you are "harming" people by being unvaccinated and plugging up a healthcare system that they pay into as well, is a huge stretch

4) No I do not accept law enforcement is to enforce laws for people who chose to be autonomous. I do not think that a person that refuses to pay for a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt, should be held at gun point and taken to jail. I do support the police. They have a shltty job that doesn't get appreciated. But if there's laws for the police to hold people accountable for not wearing a seatbelt, yet there's no laws to hold somebody who doesn't disclose whether they have the AIDS or HIV to a sexual partner - that has nothing to do with cops and when they arrest.

5) My vaccination status is just as much your business as mine is to how many times you've been treated for STDs, any medication you may be taking, or your menstrual cycle.

I'm not going to answer 6 and 7 because I don't see a point to either question, other than digging for personal info - which shouldn't be addressed in a public forum

Now answer mine! I'll rephrase it

If all you're worried about is the impact it has on the healthcare system, do you feel as though we should divide ourselves on the fat vs average? That is the same autonomy that burdened the health system long before the Rona came around.

not sure what you are asking me bob ? I don’t quite understand your connection of obesity treatment with autonomy? Are you implying that obesity is an autonomous choice which impacts non obese ?? Perhaps you can clarify .

Obesity is not a disease and is considered a silent pandemic as it can take many years before its effects manifest . We do have treatments and therapeutic programmes to intervene . With covid we do not .

“Everyone“ is entitled to receive healthcare .. the sad thing is healthcare is treated as a finite resource and not everyone has equal access . As populations age I am sure obesity will place more of a burden to health systems but in terms of immediate priority .. a “novel disease “ which we have limited treatments for will use more immediate resources . The lack of oxygen in India is indicative of how fragile health resources are .

I never said anything about obesity TREATMENT.... I was making the comparison from unvaxxed people getting divided from vaxxed - and your rationale.

Your position is, you feel as though unvaxxed people have the POTENTIAL to burden the healthcare system. Fat people IS an epidemic that DOES burden the healthcare system.

Do we need to divide fat vs skinny as well, so we don't burden the healthcare system?

Should we punish fat people with their jobs and social lives so that the healthy can stay even healthier by not having a fat person POTENTIALLY pick up the virus easier due to their poor health and share the same space as nonfat people?

Oh and bob .. why you are sounding defensive ??? there is no pressure for you to answer any personal question or to justify why . I would be happy to answer personal questions relevant to the topic .. which is vaccination ... you could always start a topic about sexual health

Not defensive at all.... I'm just painting you in the corner using your own rationale


And I'm most definitely speaking to vaccination AND division - which is actually what the topic is about

That's why you won't answer the question!

then you have misinterpreted what I posted ...

I inferred

“covid” places a burden on the health system . Until there is global immunity .. “covid “ is a threat to “everyone “ . including the vaccinated . Without herd immunity covid will continue to mutate .

your obesity division argument is nonsensical and imaginary . I would never support discrimination against people with high BMI . .. in any form . Covid does not discriminate and at some point everyone will encounter this pathogen . Vaccination currently .. is not an absolute guarantee .. but it does reduce risk of needing hospital care /death . I fully support that .

only in your mind lmao .

my participation in this thread is not to support division or political agendas . I am trying to understand why such a divide exists .

I have answered your question .. you just didn’t appreciate my answer

I disagree... covid is only a threat to people with compromised immune systems and underlying health conditions

I agree.... covid is a burden on the healthcare system

I agree.... covid will continue to mutate

I disagree.... the obesity argument is not nonsensical and imaginary, because it IS a burden on the healthcare system - which is your only valid argument for getting the nonvaxxed, vaxxed. Otherwise it should be an individual choice

I agree.... nobody should be discriminated against. Even nonvaxxed.... even if they burden the healthcare system as much as fat people do.

I disagree... covid DOES discriminate. It takes out the elderly and unhealthy



The thread was not about the virus.
The thread was about division.
A society cannot properly function without anything in common.

Actually you didn't....had you answered, I would have kept grilling!

Not to embarrass you, but to make you aware that you are discriminating for whatever reason - which is not who I think you are

I have removed the points we have agreed on lol :-)

1 and 3 ... No disrespect but you are not a health professional . Healthy people of all ages and demographics , without pre-existing conditions have died from Covid . Delta has changed who is susceptible . It is a much more infectious strain of covid . I am healthy with no risk factors (apart from working in an infectious environment ). Yet I would not underestimate or downplay the seriousness of this disease . .. not because I want people to have their rights taken away but because I care and understand the full potential of this pandemic .

2. The burden to healthcare was not my only argument . I believe I mentioned protecting the economy .. pivotal to all of this is protecting global populations by minimising the spread and risk of covid mutating to something more dangerous .

And lastly .. “a society cannot function without something in common“ ... uniting to preserve life and care for something more than self , seems like a profound “something” to have in common .

Thanks for sharing in this discussion with me bob .. stay healthy and fight the good fight

1&3. I'll agree to disagree. I don't need to be a health professional - I can just be a student of the subject, educate myself and come up with the same conclusion

2. I purposefully avoided your "protecting the economy" argument, because that was a slam dunk. People lost their jobs, homes and lives because of lockdowns. The only valid argument that I could entertain was the healthcare requirement

3. Uniting in preservation of life shouldn't be the glue...it's inherent in the word society and how we all want to live - together. But you're right, it would be nice, but we already have prochoice people that already doesn't want to unite over life

I enjoyed the discussion as well. You stay healthy yourself! I'll do ok

Hi Bart apologies I have only just seen your response !!! ...

Having open heart surgery requires a protected environment .. That includes the staff who are caring for you . I appreciate what you are saying and I am sure surviving such an ordeal may alter personal perspective .

I am not sure what viral specialists are basing that prediction on . Clearly they are only considering delta and existing strains . .. over the next five months with international travel now back on the cards , relaxing of social distancing /mask wearing and winter yet to come .. in my mind at least , covid still has the upper hand . As you. can see from the figures I posted the percentage of the global population who have been vaccinated or have been exposed to current strains of covid is still astonishingly low .

My eyes will be on Israel and the UK over the next six months . Perhaps I will be more inclined to have confidence in American predictions once that has passed .

Assisting poorer countries struggling to vaccinate and get ahead of covid has implications for every nation . Uncontrolled spread in any country will just keep perpetuating the transmission cycle and risk . . Travel will act as a catalyst .

Well done for stepping up to be vaccinated Bart .. . Keep safe x

i appreciate your staunch attitude of keeping people safe, first and foremost. That is exactly the kind of attitude all medical professionals should have. Thank you Blondey111 for your devoted service to this pandemic. I still don’t agree with you on the vaccine mandate, but I understand why you feel the way you do.

tēnā rawa atu koe Bart .. I really appreciate your kind words and understanding

Getting the Covid-19 vaccine should be a choice and not forced. I don't care who got the vaccine and who doesn't get it doesn't effect me in anyway. I choose not to get the vaccine and that is my choice alone I am doing what is best for me. I don'tlike how the government is forcing people to get this vaccine and if they dont get it they will lose their job, that is not right. This vaccine is not a one size fits all

Looks like another year without Christmas again as all the deer seem to be getting covid. So now they want to vaccinate deer being how successful and easy it has been to get all the humans vaccinated. Even the zoo's are going to start vaccinating some of their animals. In Denmark they are killing 15,000 minks that have gotten covid and then humans are catching a mutated version of covid from those minks, it's unclear how many types of animals will contract covid or be able to spread it back to humans. What I don't understand is why so many people have been in close enough contact with deer to get them sick? The minks are more understandable, and cats are much more likely to get it than dogs. Seems like there are many people who will make an awful lot of money off these billions of vaccines we will need thru out the world.