I believe she meant we should be afraid of being friends or in the "friend zone" because it would be better for both of us not to be.

Not even worth the attention. That profile is already deactivated.

I believe"it" was using a language translator and posted in a thread that is getting a lot of eyeballs. I believe if you asked what "it" meant you would be asked to contact it off site.

Well, back to the topic...

It's obvious that I don't like the friend zone.

I've tried to play the long game, but I get cut short by getting ostracized to the friend zone. I don't even get given a chance.

What makes it worse is everything everyone wants to tell me:

- You're a good-looking guy.
- You're a great guy. A sweetheart.
- You're so smart.

Blah blah blah.

If I'm so great, then why do I not even get given a chance? Ruled out from the start. Not even a chance as a friend, making the friend zone a misnomer to begin with because it's really more like an acquaintance.

People really need to stop sending mixed signals, and just be honest.

Yeah, truth can hurt, but so do paper cuts. We get over both. That's just life. Sometimes by trying to be "sensitive" we actually do more harm.

This is one of the many reasons why I have difficulty trusting people -- they just aren't honest enough to be able to handle me.

Many men like to be just friends but many don't know how to be Friends without. Benefits.

I like Platonic activity partners, they work out better. Until I meet a Man for a True Relationship.

I will pay my Own way in dinning and Outings !

I don't Play games with FWB !

It's not about playing a long game or a short game. It's about genuinely loving women. If that is what drives your interactions with women then those other advantages (good looking, sweetheart, intelligent, etc.) will likely work better for you. If you can set aside the particular goals and expectations and be genuinely interested in and supportive of a woman it might make a difference. I'm not talking about feigning interest or wanting to be nice to get you to where you want to be. I'm talking about loving women unconditionally and fully. They are amazing. End of rant./

I prefer a Man go the Distance to show he really cares.

That doesn't mean across town or in his neighborhood but he is willing to Travel just to Meet .

Fortunately there are still men like that out there !! No all men aren't

Alike !!

I've been thinking about this, the friend zone. I'm thinking people define it differently maybe. When I originally was thinking about it, I was thinking about befriending a guy and getting to know them to see where it'll lead, if anywhere. As a friend, a romantic interest or just an aquaintance. To me an aquaintance is just that, not a friend.

Once I realize that it would most likely not work for whatever reason, I will tell them. If they want to remain friends that is fine, as long as I don't think they are hoping I'll change my mind. Apparently a romantic interest wasn't reciprocated or if it was, it's over. I also don't do fwb (meaning sex with friends)for a couple reasons. For one, I never felt there was an actual friendship with those wanting to be friends except those that were hoping I'd change my mind. If there was, maybe I would have tried it. Secondly, I don't want to send mixed messages for those guys I've met that would remain friends but we're hoping is eventually change my mind about a long term with them.

So I think I was clumping befriending a guy to get to know him better as in the friend zone, but I'm thinking they are actually two different things.

Well, it hasn't yet, and I'm a pretty patient person. Sometimes to a fault, as some have pointed out.

There is an aspect of my personality that I was just about to explain, but I'm not sure I can do it justice. It's something that many people will have trouble understanding. So I'm probably better off saving it for another conversation.

But I will say that the view above seems rather altruistic to me. That's because it strikes me as awfully one-sided. It makes it sound like the man has to do all the work.

One of the great truths in life is that all motivations are ultimately selfish in nature. There is no such thing as a truly selfless act.

The view expressed seems to require a selflessness that simply never exists. The man always has a personal motivation, just as the woman does. She can't have it all her way. So rather than reject the man's motivation, she simply needs to acknowledge whether or not his motivation aligns with her own.

Throwing yourself on a grenade to save your comrades? Ask yourself why a person would do that. To save your friends? Not probing deep enough. Keep digging. WHY do you want to save your friends? What would happen if you didn't do so? How would it impact your life? When distilled down to the essence in the most simplistic terms, the lives of your friends have value to you.

That value may include or impact other lives too, but it's the value you place on their lives that drives you. So you jump on the grenade to preserve that value.

In the end, it's about regret.

Best case scenario, you all survive. Worst case scenario, you all die. Most likely scenario, you will die, but at least some of your friends will survive. But if by some strange event you should survive while all or some of them died, you can at least tell yourself that you tried, that you sacrificed yourself for them. You can rationalize away those regrets.

And yet so many people view such an action as a completely selfless act. It's not. Believing so is delusion. It's something we *want* to believe.

And that's how the quoted view sounds to me - something we want to believe but isn't realistic.

There has to be reciprocity.

The question then becomes:
How long should one realistically wait for that to happen?

Enjoying the company of a friend isn't work.

Most relationships do not organically grow out of friendships. That is an extreme rarity.

And if everyone took that route, we would never explore options outside our own small circle of close friends. We would be severely hindering ourselves, afraid of expanding our comfort zones.

I'm not talking about a close friend circle. This is about how we interact with women. I'm trying to suggest that instead of wanting a woman you love women. If you really love them, you want to see them happy, you listen, and be natural, not on the prowl, your demeanor will attract them. It's not about seeking. It's about enjoying their company. You'll have to trust me that it works.

You're a smart guy and it seems like this makes you really over think things. It's not as complicated as people believe. That's all I got.

He is describing HIS side of it, not hers. I am pretty sure the women in his life have given him plenty and if you read what he has said you would see it. Friendship just for the sake of friendship its own reward. No payoff. No pot of gold. Just the simple joy of being with people. Do all your friends only like you because what they can get from you? Is that the only reason you like people? At that end it is selfishness.

Most of my life I have given unselfishly. That is what I was taught from the time I could walk. As a woman my job was to give and give and keep giving preferably without complaint or requests for help or support. In return I was told I was being selfish because I didn't lie down and spread them so he could do his business. They thought sex was some kind of business transaction. I will take you out to dinner IF I get lucky later on. I'd rather pay for my own meal thank you.I'll give you extra money to pay for... if we have sex (from a husband). It's your birthday so I will give you sex as a present. (No thanks.)

Like me for who I am as a person. Not even as a woman but as a person. if and when I meet a man that can do that I might be more than willing to change the status of the relationship (friendships ARE relationships too). But if you think sex is a business transaction and that I now OWE you sex in return for being nice to me, or buying something or cleaning the bathroom then you most likely won't get the sex. But if you respect me (yup there's that word), talk to me, spend time with me doing just normal things that people do without an expectation of a sex payment you might get the promotion. But when you do any of that and expect sex then you disrespect me. You dishonor me. Really if you had a daughter is that how you would want men to treat her? Or your mother?

No such thing as true altruism? There is and if you had a child you loved, a sister or brother, a mother or father, what would you do for them? A dear friend? People enlist in the army not for the fun vacation or to see the world. They become firemen and policemen not for the great uniforms. But they want to serve, to help other and sometimes run into the burning building to rescue someone knowing you might not get out. There is altruism all around you. AND they do all of this for people they don't even know!

MsLee, perhaps you didn't fully read my example?

People who do altruistic things like you mentioned find some personal reward in it. It's not materialistic, but it may be spiritual or emotional. But that reward IS their motivation, not the people it impacts. Most people confuse the two.

I do a lot of "unselfish" stuff. In fact, I had to do it last night at my job because of both clients having behaviors at the same time. Despite the use of minor physical intervention, I was able to calm one client down by simple talking to him with compassion and understanding. Even though he's been intentionally testing me lately, I can see that he's beginning to respond to me more and more. I often have to do things I would rather not, but I make the sacrifice because it's building a working bond with that client. So I'm doing it for him, but technically that's my job.

But both you and Cranky keep throwing out the words "love" and "sex". I think that's where both of you are misreading what I'm saying.

Firstly, I've already removed sex from my equation in my previous posts.

Secondly, I'm already talking about loving somebody as a person.

Thirdly, I'm talking about reciprocity.

If someone is a friend, they are just a friend - unless somebody (either side) broaches the subject of being more.

But most of us do NOT approach somebody we are interested in with the goal of simply being friends. And if we did, we wouldn't be being honest about our intentions.

So if we are honest about our intentions under a typical scenario, how long to does a person wait for reciprocity before giving up on his/her confessed romantic intentions?

Just because you choose to be friends first does not negate those original intentions of romance. If anything, those intentions become the motivation for the friendship.

Therefore, there is no organic friendship unless both sides originally meet and get to know each without any romantic intentions from either side and from the very beginning.

THIS ^

And before some small-minded moron thinks I hate sex....no, that's not the case at all..
Like MsLeeHM said...treat me with respect...like a fellow human worthy of being treated decently...that will come eventually.

Ideally, sex should be the physical expression of a loving feeling..and, if I am not feeling loved, respected, and valued by you aside from the nookie....then no..it ain't gonna happen...

Mayber I am misunderstanding here...but it seems like you are contradicting yourself..

1. But most of us do NOT approach somebody we are interested in with the goal of simply being friends. And if we did, we wouldn't be being honest about our intentions.

That seems at odds with *this*:

2.Therefore, there is no organic friendship unless both sides originally meet and get to know each without any romantic intentions from either side and from the very beginning.

I met a guy several years ago who did some work for me..painted my house (inside, and the trim outside) and numerous other things..
I stayed in contact with him...had his do various things from time tio time...goit to like him as a person..we had a lot in common...guess he feels the same way....we have that easy banter...""get" each other..

Matter of fact..he has taken off work 4 times for a week each in the past 2 1/2 years to come here and do work for me...and only took money once...because he knows I am hurting finacially.
(I now live 2 hours away, and wasn't in bad shape financially when he did work for me the first few years..I gladly paid him)

He can't drive (medical issue), so i go get him,...(his not being able to drive doesn't keep him from being extremely gainfully employed...he works for a subcontractor)

He sleeps in my spare room..we watch TV...go out to eat...but there is absolutely NO romantic inclination on either side..

I never expected to be friends with the guy..it just kind of happened..

Have another male friend,...*him* I was kind of interested in in *that* way..but for whatever reason..he's not...
I've stayed over at his house...he's stayed at my house over night...no funny business...
We too have a lot in common..and can talk about things we can't with other people.

In the real world I approach people, both men and women equally. As potential friends. They still have to earn my trust as I will have to earn theirs. In the real world I don't start with is this a potential partner when I meet a man. I don't even think that way. They are all people first.

On dating sites we have an alternate reality. We do have an agenda. I am not here looking for friends who live 2000 miles away. I have friends right here. So here yes, I look at the profiles and the images. I read what they say. I look at their age and where they live. I narrow down the field. Because HERE I do have an agenda. And it is right there in my profile. I am looking for a special person.

Now when I do meet men we talk. Ii am not wondering what he looks like with his clothes off. I am listening to him. I am assessing whether we might have enough in common to even make it to something more than coffee. It is quite easy to assess if they are only looking for sex. One guy was very clearly racist and that didn't come out in our talks online. If all he wants is sex (I buy my own coffee) then it stops there. A couple want to be friends because there was no attraction on their part towards me. That is fine. But they haven't called. And it doesn't ruin my day. Except for the racist I enjoyed talking to them. And it didn't depend on whether I was going to get lucky (finally after 14 years). I was assessing whether they could be a friend. That first.

My apology if I misunderstood something you said. That is something that happens with the written word sometimes. The voice in our head misinterprets