Lol would you look at that , judge and jury too !!!

A relationship is just like friends with benefits.

This is so true. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that, but it becomes very obvious that is not the case. What they really mean is they want a f...buddy. It got so old, I gave up looking for anything.

I get what you're saying Geezer and what you've said throughout this thread makes sense to me. There was a time when I looked for the "Omg" feeling or the "spark" right away and went with that. It was instant relationship without the friendship. That either did or didn't come later. That type of relationship does not work, at least it didn't for me. It was more of a physical relationship that anything else. I've found it to be very short lived and have seen it be short lived in others.

Developing a friendship with someone first leads to a more sustainable relationship... whether that be someone you are friends with without having sex, or someone you are attracted to and it becomes more of a sexual relationship. That special relationship built on friendship has the possibility of becoming even more... one where both decide they want to share a life together as a "monogamous couple".

This makes sense to me, however it gets complicated... or I make it complicated because I don't jump in bed with just anyone I'm attracted to. If it happens, I've reached a point where I'm very fond of that person and I'm wanting a more exclusive relationship with him.

I've yet been able to have a special kind of friendship that involves sex where I didn't eventually feel like I was good enough to bed down, but not good enough to make a commitment to. That feeling really sucks!

There's a part of me that would really like to be able to do that because I very much enjoy sex and getting close to a man in that way... just wired differently I suppose because I end up either falling in love or caring way too much.

Thanks! You do understand. The section I boldfaced is probably the worst case scenario of building friendships. It is difficult to hurt a friend and more difficult to be hurt by a friend.

The thing is, it happens organically for me. It's been my experience that loving women and truly wanting them to know they are wonderful and attractive (along with flirtation and sexual tension) is a lot more appealing than wanting sex. The sex just happens and usually it is not sustainable because one or the other is still searching for that one. It was sustainable with Li. We are still together 7 years later.

That's awesome Geezer, and thank you! I've struggled with the idea that a man truly cared and wasn't just after a roll in the hay if it didn't go further than friendship. I don't think every relationship that becomes sexual is meant to develop into a life long event... although when I'm engaged in such a relationship, my ego refuses to acknowledge that it doesn't necessarily need to be a life long thing.

My ego starts screaming that there can be no other for that person but me. And if we are being sexual and he starts looking elsewhere , holy cow... that's the ultimate insult and major ego deflater. I'm supposed to be the only one, lol.

So in the end, some times it's "easier" to just remain in the friendship zone of the platonic type than to take a risk and have your ego crushed. Me personally, I've taken a couple risks over the last year or two and my ego is a little bruised so I'm hesitant to take the chance again.

After hearing what you've been saying, I now believe that there are some men who really do care, just for some reason aren't in love to the point of wanting to make it happily ever after... just as it is with me, there are some I truly cared for but didn't want the life long event with.

Doesn't that risk work both ways.

Yes it does, so it's understandable the man's hesitancy as well. Least it is to me.

The ego is a powerful thing. It made me an idiot when I was young. How do we not get angry and insulted if we feel one way, but the feelings aren't reciprocated to that level? It's a natural reaction to rejection.

I had an epiphany a long time ago. One day it occurred to me that I was lucky to have spent any time at all with a particular woman. The gratitude changed my entire way of thinking and made me start to understand what awesome creatures all of you are.

I don't hesitate Better to have loved and lost.
Then to never loved at all.

Yes, I'm grateful I can at least see when my ego gets in the way... it's easier to keep it in check that way.

I like the epiphany you had. That is a positive way of looking at it and helps to cherish the time together regardless of how long it lasted. Very cool.

Thank you for reminding me of that. I used to live by those words.. not sure when I stopped, but I believe it hurts more to hesitate and not allow yourself to love than it does to allow love in your heart even if it's not returned.

That statement "Better to love than to be loved" is actually true, when that love is genuine.

Now I agree with this !

As was pointed out by others, many people seem to use the term friend zone to categorize those that they've not only ruled out as potential mates, but also decided aren't really appealing as a close friend either.

From my perspective, this topic is about levels of intimacy.

I'm fortunate to be the close friend of a woman. She and I have connected deeply at the level of emotional intimacy. I truly love her. We've learned through the development of our friendship that we're misaligned as romantic partners. Though I desire very much to experience physical intimacy with her, even if that never happens, our emotional bond as friends is a wonderful gift that I'm grateful to continue enjoying.

People say that a lot !!

We really shouldn't have to pry.

I may not remember the names of half the
women i've boned.

But, i will NOT be in any type of relationship
with a woman, if she and i can't be friends too.

I have a lot of catching up to do in this thread. I was writing a response to this while at work when we suddenly had a situation which required me to halt my response and lose what I had written. (Let's just say some physical intervention was required with BOTH clients at the same time.)

Anyway...

I think there is a lot of truth to what Cranky said in the quote.

However, I have a test that I use, and I know I'm not the only man who uses it. When I'm really strongly attracted to someone -- a woman who is truly special -- I have difficulty thinking about her sexually. It's not a matter of desire or physical attraction -- the desire and will is there. Rather, it's that the attraction to personality, common interests, common goals, thought processes, etc. (all the intangibles) is so strong that sex becomes a secondary thought. I'm too busy thinking of the entirety of who she is, and how that makes me feel.

This happened to one of the most sexually active men I've known just before he got married. I remember him mentioning it right at the moment it finally occurred to him. We were talking, and he began saying that he and his girlfriend at the time hadn't even had sex yet. Then he paused as it dawned on him. Next he said, "Oh my god, I haven't even thought about having sex with her yet. That's really odd." He then mentioned that he had a hard time even imagining having sex with her.

At first glance, this sounds bad, right? The truth is that when a woman is so special that we are attracted to her entire being, many of us men simply don't sexually fantasize about her. It becomes an alien thought to us. We may think of how physically beautiful she is, and that may make our heart flutter. But then we will think about something she said, or something she did, or the way she expresses herself....anything but wanting to get in her pants. Why? Some would say it's because she arouses our spirit rather than our loins. She lifts our whole being.

I think there are many women that don't understand this.

I also think there are men who don't either.

Personally, I've known about it since I was a teenager.

I also think sexual desire is much more complicated than some people realize. If a man or woman "friend zones" a person based on lack of sexual desire, they may not be giving themselves a chance to recognize other forms of attraction which can lead to sexual desire. They are basing it too much on the physical or first impressions rather than actually bothering to get to know the person on a more intimate-but-non-physical level.

Personally, I have a tendency to move quickly but not because of sex. It's actually because of the friend zone. I don't want to invest myself -- emotionally or time-wise -- with someone who is going to just leave me stuck and hanging indefinitely in the friend zone. Being stuck there is psychological and emotional torture.

Plus what happens in the meantime while we are "just friends"? Do I watch her date everyone BUT me? Do I date other women and risk losing any opportunity with her? If we are both dating other people, will that draw us farther apart so that we never really get to connect on that level? There are way too many things that can happen. Should I place my entire life on hold for a "maybe someday"?

That's too much drama. I'm going to lose interest because I'm honestly going feel it's one-sided. Better to just move on.

On the other hand, if a friendship evolves organically without any initial thought of romance or sex, that's something utterly different. Unfortunately I've had very few of those in my life. Mainly because I just don't run across many women who share enough common interests with me to really bond as friend like that.

One of the reasons why it took me so long to get over my last girlfriend is that in many respects she really was my best friend. I hated letting her down the way I did. But I loved her too much to let her place her life on hold while I got myself straightened out.

Anyway....I'm sure I've left something out. It's been nearly 7 hours since I had my first thoughts for typing this response. This is the best that I've been able reconstruct that thought process.

Where are we. Not being in a relationship because were afraid of break up.
Not having sex because we think they want someone else.

Or just going to try it again and hope things work for the best

Spirit arousal is a great way to describe it, and that lift to our being can be just as, or more satisfying than sexual release.



Yes, I believe we're all susceptible to making snap judgements based on limited observational cues. Finding a balance between reasonable filtering, and openness to exploration and discovery can be tricky for a lot of folks.