Okay.

But, it isn't a matter of what makes me happy.
It is a reality of life.

I completely agree with this assessment based upon intelligent people challenge themselves and find peace in new discoveries and new answers. they basically keep themselves busy to feel the need to rely upon anyone or anything.

where they lack however, is knowing that God is a benefit. they have not figured that out. basically, they feel like they have been handicapped by asking something they cannot see, feel, hear to help them. they have intelligently reasoned and found it's better to suffer on their own terms vs suffering on terms they find no proof of.

so in a sense, they have talked themselves out of accepting there is a higher knowledge and power like God.

now, if they spent that much time debunking science [rather than accepting everything as fact], they would clearly see science really does not have the answers. they provide accepted hypothesis. in fact, there are no facts within science, only accepted theories [which is a fact to them]. makes me wonder why they changed that for a theory to mean fact, and fact to mean theory. it's basically saying, we make it up and accept it as we go. and this where it is easy to find fault within the scientific process.

but the intelligent mind seems to rather accept anything [even a false fact] than to accept there is a higher power and knowledge.

they even choose to ignore the fact that Einstein followed the idea of God from Spinoza.

to the intelligent, God is but a mere remedy and nothing else. too bad they lack understanding to see that is what science has also become to them!!


Been to church.
Followed religion.
None of it made sense.
All of it raised conflict in my contentment.

It wasn't until I dismissed religion that I found inner peace and contentment. I have more Joy in my life.

I am not filled with worry.
I don't fear death.
I don't need a reason for bad things that happen.
I don't need a reason for good things that happen.
I conduct myself based on my own morals and values that, yes, are rooted in my past religion but are justified by me.

Wisdom is gained by experience.
Reading is an experience.
So is watching the grass grow, paint dry and dust settle.

All experiences do not gain you wisdom.
All wisdom is not good wisdom.



I also find preachers lack great knowledge and understanding. it seems with all of their research they have either overlooked or ignored simple truths. like hell, trinity, 7 day creation, and much more. it's as if they cannot reason, or, they know the truth and continue preaching in darkness.

Yeshua instructed them to preach the Gospel. and my money states the majority have no idea what that Gospel even is!!

I do follow God, and have concluded it is a good thing to be with like believers. the difference for me is, I know what I believe. and if the preacher lacks that understanding, it's ok, because chances are I am in a congregation that barely understands the level to where the preacher is at. so my understanding would be foreign to all of them. and I am only there for the fellowship and to praise God!!

if God wants the preacher to hear me, it will happen. but it will only happen when God opens that door. because until then, it will be like speaking jibberish to someone who does not understand my language!!

What is? Belief?
Belief is NOT reality. Its belief.

I can jump off a boulder and believe I can fly.
Reality is, I am not equipped to fly.
So, I fall to the ground and skin my knee.

Reality requires no belief, it just is, whether anyone believes it or not.
Substituting reality for belief is called delusion.
Substituting belief in favor of reality is called knowledge.

Which makes more sense.
The belief that if I jump off a boulder I can fly or
That if I jump off a boulder I will fall because my body is not equipped to fly?

come on Tom, you are smarter than that.

A belief is either simple or basic to controversial and complex
A belief in God or deity is complex and controversial

a belief in whether I jump off a bolder and can fly is really a simple belief and one kids go through, every adult with an IQ over 75 knows we cant fly.

I think most 3 year olds understand this basic belief and the worshipping of God is a complex belief that cannot be explain in a few sentences let along a message board.

God is a benefit to some people.
That benefit is not knowledge it is belief.
There is a big difference between knowing something and believing something.

I believed that I could control my diabetes with diet.
Reality proved that I wasn't with blood tests.
I know that I also need drugs to control my sugar.
My delusion was over-ridden by reality.

When I was in the service my dogtags listed my religion as Christian Science.
At that time in my life, I believed that God would heal me.
I was never really sick, I healed from injuries quickly.
It wasn't my Belief of God healing me.
It was the reality that I was a healthy young man.


Many people confuse fact and reality.
Reality is always a fact but not all facts are reality.
For example, light speed limit in the Universe.

Fact tells us that no mass can go faster than the speed of light.
That is because all evidence we can understand tells us it is a fact.
However, We don't know if that fact is reality or not because we don't know everything about everything.
If our 'fact' were reality, we would no longer be looking.
But, we still look for things that go faster than light or ways for mass to exceed the speed limit.
We explore wormholes, teleportation and quantum mechanics because we are not sure if our facts are reality.


No, science doesn't.
Science is the quest for knowledge, understanding.
Science is what allows us to create the world we live in.
It wasn't belief that created your ability to communicate online.
That was science and the reality from that science.
The car you use to drive to church is there because of science, not belief.

My reply was not to express the conditions of belief's complexities.
It was to show a simple example of the difference between belief and reality.

What gets me and this is pretty important to me...
Is that while I don't demand anyone to believe what I believe
I don't get the same respect from religious believers.
I MUST be wrong unless I believe the same as them.
I find that unreasonable. "Lacking reason".

I have my own belief of "God" but mine requires no justification to anyone.
I have no need to defend my belief because its my belief.
I don't try to aggressively convert anyone to my thinking or belief.
I merely offer reasoning for consideration.

Like many here do.
You speak in a presumptuous manner asking questions than answering them yourself as if the questions you asked need no response because you already think you "know".

OR...
Asking a question and giving my opinion of the answer to inspire others to also give an answer. Why shouldn't I participate in my own questions to ponder?

John 6:44- No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him ...

Generally humans have an inate awareness that there seems to be a higher power. However we cannot discover God, he has to reveal himself to us.

excellent verse

44 No one can come to me unless the Father -- the One who sent me -- draws him. And I will raise him up on the Last Day.

like the parable of the rich man who refused to part with his money, Yeshua [God in the flesh] already knew who would reject Him and who would accept Him. and the rich man walked away from Him. and then Yeshua, gave a surmise concerning what had just happened to those watching.

and I believe the verse John 6:44 is a direct reflection of my last statement!!

Without proof it is all as good as imaginary.

In court, in the laboratory, in the bank, in any place where words, figures, and symbols count for a standard recognised meaning or value, there must be proof of the assertation.

Nice stories about how this X led to that X with the help of invisible X are OK for entertainment, but are not proof.

Sure I have eluded seemingly certain death a half a dozen times or more.
I have had dreams about future events which later happened.
I still have intuitive feelings about some people I meet, which often bear out.

But in the end, all efforts at establishing any type of existence of any deity are man made.

Man made just doesn't cut it.

I have witnessed miracles of probability, amazing human feats, and many things that you just wouldn't believe without seeing, but not one of them can be attributed only to a 'higher being'.

Of all the supposed 'representatives' of all the religious beliefs and religious practices in the world today, surely one of them can point to one item of actual proof of a deity/god/demi-god which is not related to man.

would someone medically pronounced dead and sitting in the freezers for nearly a day, because people back then [late 1970's] were allowed to have their pastor pray for the ill, sick, dead, etc...

my grandfather, with my father, and I was around the age of 10 back then, went with my Grandfather to pray for a member of the church whose son was ill. we were held up because I-465 [Indianapolis] had about a 30 vehicle crash. emergency vehicles weren't as quick to the scene with communications like they are today. but it did give my Grandfather and us a chance to walk around praying for others. by the time all was clear and we could move again, the son had already died and been moved to the freezers like protocol.

from this point, it still took us another 15 hours to get to our destination [with this boy basically now frozen]. when we arrived and met the family, it was still custom we could pray for the child. I will never forget seeing all of those freezers doors thinking bodies were behind them all. the morgue employee went to the one where this young boy was and opened the door and pulled him out. I still remember how blue he was. seemed very strange to me and made me very uncomfortable.

but my grandfather called for my dad and myself and placed us all around this boy. I remember my Grandfather instructing us when 2 or more believers agree in prayer that Yeshua is in the midst of us all. I remember when my hand touched that young boy how cold he was. like it sent the chills through me. it was tough to shake off. but I heard my Grandfather and father praying, so I just began praying myself. I remember how loud it seemed with our voices booming. but most of all, I remember that boys eyes opening and sitting up. I remember his mother just weeping and the other family members began praising God. and I remember the morgue attendant calling for the doctors.

when it was all said and done, that boy was pronounced dead, 20 hours frozen in the morgue freezer, and he walked out of that hospital healed and healthy.

now, if that was not a miracle then I do not know what a miracle consists of. but I do know this much. I saw a boy who was dead and the color of pale blue in a body bag. and then saw that same boy walk out of the hospital like I did myself.

was that God?

in my opinion yes.

scientifically, I have never got a real definitive answer. only that they did not know all of the facts involved. but they knew as much as I knew. a boy died, was pronounced dead, stuck into the freezers, and felt like an ice cube when I touched him to pray for him, and during that 30 minute prayer thawed, opened his eyes, his color returned back to normal, his temperature began to rise, and he spoke, then was re-examined, dressed on his own, and walked out on his own.

so, you tell me what that was if you are so intelligent?

be my guest!!

I believe the issue would always be that people will choose what they want to believe. What some people 'believe' will still be correct while what others believe will not.

Noo matter what one may count as 'proof' another can come up with other possible connections, correlations, or reasons. There is no absolute proof beyond that which becomes accepted on mere integrity and trust of the source and its/their conclusions.

I don't make any claims apart from not being able to see.
Maybe it's the plank in my eye.

I don't claim to be intelligent, I just use big words.

If I could tell anyone what is going on, it would be me who is the god - or devil, depending on if you agree with me or not.

An existing loving god would deal with paedophiles, war mongers, environmental destroyers, and all evildoers hiding behind all religious dogma.

What actually happens: innocent children and animals suffer, weapons manufacturers and industrialists are blameless, the evil greedy prosper, and men of god need laws of men (not power of god) to protect them from mere mortals.

God is a no show. Ungodliness rules.

God's highest representative hides behind bullet proof glass. Why ?
No proof there !

Just one piece of concrete proof from tens of thousands of years of religious assertations can't be that much to ask, if any god is real.

Because he gave mankind free will, but free will comes at a price, some will burn for eternity for their transgressions and some will not.

there comes a time when you must blame man for the choices he makes. hold him accountable for being evil. and yes, it does not seem fair to struggle while people like George Soros lives like a king. but these are all choices being made under free will.

if God hammered us every time we did something wrong, no one would want to believe and follow God because He was being like a hitler or dictator.

these people will pay. and the reward they get is one they actually deserve.

Then it isn't Free Will.

Free Will requires no Heaven and no Hell.
No reward or punishment.

Free Will has no conditions, its free
or it isn't Free Will, no matter what religion says.

You are right. Free will does not 'require' Heaven or Hell, or prison, or sickness, or broken relationships, these are all things that co-exist, nonetheless.

there are many interpretations of free will,

some interpret as free from consequence(either natural or supernatural)
others interpret it only as freedom to choose (even with knowledge of consequences, natural or supernatural) ourself one option out of more than one we are capable of making.

that is your interpretation.

free will , freedom or anything free comes at a price.

God gave mankind freewill, and the consequences of that free will will be determined in the end, heaven or hell

Freedom has a price, we are free do what we pleased with in the law, but the consequences of that, some people will be offended or left behind.

Please say certain countries have free healthcare, but the consequences of free healthcare is the service isn't great and people pay high taxes, its okay if you're rich to pay high taxes but if you're a working class stiff with a family to feed high taxes can be burdensome , want to ask the parents of the little beautiful lad Charlie Gard what they think of their free healthcare in the UK?

Free has a price, nothing is 100% free, there is always a cost or consequence.

Did I not provide proof?