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Topic: Victories Against Sexual Harrassment & Backlash?
peggy122's photo
Thu 11/30/17 10:44 AM
Edited by peggy122 on Thu 11/30/17 10:58 AM
Now that a growing number of powerful male figures are being held accountable for sexual misconduct towards women in the workplace , I'm wondering how male-female relationships in the workplace are going to evolve?

For example, do you think that work interactions between males and females could become robotic or strained as men grow anxious about potential sexual accusations from women that could end their career ?

Or could there be a counter-movement of men lobbying against raunchy comments/innuendos/ogling initiated by women towards men?

Will some women be recruited to replace men in executive positions , as a growing number of lawsuits against men present a financial risk to elite corporations ?

What do you envision for the future of gender relations in the workplace in light of the current accountability trend for sexual misconduct?

Tom4Uhere's photo
Thu 11/30/17 11:44 AM
Part of my job as a manager involved the company's compliance management. Workplace Harassment is taken very seriously.

When I was required to do training on compliance, the sexual harassment classes were always the most interesting due to the fact that my employees were mostly male.

I've heard more excuses for lewd behavior than I thought was possible. What many had problems understanding is that harassment is not always sexual but falls under the sexual harassment guidelines. Something as simple as a nickname can be construed as sexual harassment.

The few female mechanics in my employ were hardened against the lewd behavior of the men. Still, I tasked my foremen to pay attention to their behavior and to stop any activity that they felt was crossing the line. Gladly, I was never required to act on a harassment accusation. Other shops in the company had problems tho.

Sexual harassment protection can be abused as a vendetta. Which, in reality is a form of sexual harassment. The inter-dynamics of such behaviors is childish and shows a fundamental lack of discipline and professionalism.

One thing many people don't know is that if a harassment allegation is submitted, it MUST be documented and handled effectively. A Harassment lawsuit can get many people fired all the way up the chain of command. Some may even face legal charges as well.

Most companies will not tolerate any sexual harassment claim. It damages their reputation very badly. Its cheaper, and wiser, to just fire everyone involved and start fresh...I've seen it happen.

Male or female is not the issue. The issue is the harassment allegation, no mater the genders. Males can harass males, females can harass females. It all falls under the 'workplace harassment' heading and labeled as 'sexual' harassment.

If you are working at a job and feel you are being harassed you can submit a complaint to your HR department and they MUST act on it or they are in violation of the law. It doesn't matter if they agree with your allegations or not, they MUST document and act on it. Failure to do so implicates them in the charge.

There's a time and place for everything.
Grow up and be professional.
You are at work to do a job, not to exercise your vulgarity.

Ladywind7's photo
Thu 11/30/17 01:04 PM
Edited by Ladywind7 on Thu 11/30/17 01:06 PM
Well, sexual harassment is still here in New Zealand. I just quit one of my jobs because the owner of the Restuarant kept being vulgar.
The last straw was when working alone with him, out of the blue,he asked me what I liked in bed. I asked him 3 times to repeat what he said, because I did not believe what I was hearing.
I looked at him and said, "That is private".
Then I went home, rang my actual boss and explained that I will never go back.
I wont file anything. that is too emotionally demanding.
But, yup. The creeps are still not learning...

Tom4Uhere's photo
Thu 11/30/17 01:28 PM

Well, sexual harassment is still here in New Zealand. I just quit one of my jobs because the owner of the Restuarant kept being vulgar.
The last straw was when working alone with him, out of the blue,he asked me what I liked in bed. I asked him 3 times to repeat what he said, because I did not believe what I was hearing.
I looked at him and said, "That is private".
Then I went home, rang my actual boss and explained that I will never go back.
I wont file anything. that is too emotionally demanding.
But, yup. The creeps are still not learning...

That's sad

no photo
Thu 11/30/17 01:29 PM
I don't think the male / female relations ships in the work force will be strained. This has been going on for a long time and there will always be people in the work force who act inappropriately..

In my experience there have been people who have been " known" to be offensive to woman at work or know within the industry as that type. It rears its ugly head the most at industry trade shows and places like that.

you know the saying " instant a*shole.. just add alcohol"

For every man who acts stupid, I know 10 who will tell him to knock it off. But the problem is the worst when the man is at the top of the ladder. Because then you can't tell him to knock it off.

And to be far, the problem is not just male.. yes to a much lesser degree, but there are woman predators out there to.

Work place respect still has a way to go, but I have seen a big improvement over the last 20 years and I do see and work with women who are highly respected in their fields.

RustyKitty's photo
Thu 11/30/17 08:54 PM
so, at a painting event, a guy says about someones picture, " oh, if you turn the picture sideways, it looks like a womans breast".. she took offence to that remark.. (this was not a work situation.)
a big deal was made about it .. was that sexual harassment?
I think some people need to get a life.

motowndowntown's photo
Thu 11/30/17 09:15 PM
There's gonna be a lot of "banter" between co-workers in any environment.
Trouble is determining what "crosses the line" and what is just workplace joshing around. If somebody feels harassed and or bullied, they should bring it up with management. That said, when someone in a supervisory position shows his "package" to a female employee and asks for a sex act or makes lewd comments that calls for a law suit.

Argo's photo
Thu 11/30/17 10:26 PM
Peggy, come to my office...we need to discuss your
promotion to the asst vice president position...in *private

Tom4Uhere's photo
Fri 12/01/17 06:39 AM

so, at a painting event, a guy says about someones picture, " oh, if you turn the picture sideways, it looks like a womans breast".. she took offence to that remark.. (this was not a work situation.)
a big deal was made about it .. was that sexual harassment?
I think some people need to get a life.

There's gonna be a lot of "banter" between co-workers in any environment.
Trouble is determining what "crosses the line" and what is just workplace joshing around. If somebody feels harassed and or bullied, they should bring it up with management. That said, when someone in a supervisory position shows his "package" to a female employee and asks for a sex act or makes lewd comments that calls for a law suit.

The question that comes to mind is
Are people reacting to things because they are 'that' sensitive or
Are they reacting because they know they can cause a stir?

I've known women mechanics that would just deck you if you offended them.
I've known men that whine about any insinuation.
You can ask a co-worker out to a date many times, but as soon as they say no, you gotta drop it.

Its the harassment that defines the problem.
Even if the person being harassed displays compliance with the harassment they could be secretly offended. I have known a few examples where this was true and resulted in people being fired.

At one time, before I was manager, all nicknames were against policy. Yes, it got that bad. One guy was nicknamed "Peaches' because everyday he had fresh fruit in his lunch and most of the time, they were peaches. Another guy, tended to drool while working on electrical, we called him "Dribbles". I was known as the "Tree Rat" because I was always everywhere quickly like a squirrel. While it didn't phase me because I was there to make money, others had problems with the names. Thing is, they didn't start having problems till nicknames were focused upon.

We had this one secretary with a rather large protruding chest. She would find ways to rub her chest on the men whenever possible.
She did it to me. At the time, I was happily married and didn't really like her advances. I said nothing because I understood it was her personality. I just kept away from her (arms length). She had a bubbly personality. She ended up getting transferred to a different site and they let her go for sexual harassment.

Harassment only needs one official complaint. Laws are set to side with the complainant not the accused.

http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/crc/2011-workplace-harassment.htm

Quid Pro Quo Harassment – "This for That"
Examples:
supervisor who fires or denies promotion to a subordinate for refusing to be sexually cooperative;

supervisor requires a subordinate to participate in religious activities as a condition of employment;

supervisor offers preferential treatment/promotion if subordinate sexually cooperates or joins supervisor's religion.

Hostile Work Environment Harassment
Examples of behaviors that may contribute to an unlawful hostile environment include:

discussing sexual activities;

telling off-color jokes concerning race, sex, disability, or other protected bases;

unnecessary touching;

commenting on physical attributes;

displaying sexually suggestive or racially insensitive pictures;

using demeaning or inappropriate terms or epithets;

using indecent gestures;

using crude language;

sabotaging the victim's work;

engaging in hostile physical conduct.

First, unlawful harassing conduct must be unwelcome and based on the victim's protected status.

Second, the conduct must be:

subjectively abusive to the person affected; and
objectively severe and pervasive enough to create a work environment that a reasonable person would find hostile or abusive.

Whether an instance or a pattern of harassing conduct is severe or pervasive is determined on a case-by-case basis, with consideration paid to the following factors:

the frequency of the unwelcome discriminatory conduct;

the severity of the conduct;

whether the conduct was physically threatening or humiliating, or a mere offensive utterance;

whether the conduct unreasonably interfered with work performance;

the effect on the employee's psychological well-being; and
whether the harasser was a superior within the organization.


Management must take prompt, remedial action to investigate and eliminate any harassing conduct. All information will be maintained on a confidential basis to the greatest extent possible.

The Department cannot correct harassing conduct if a supervisor, manager or other Department official does not become aware of it. When an employee unreasonably fails to report harassing conduct, the Department has the right to raise this as a defense against a suit for harassment.

mightymoe's photo
Fri 12/01/17 06:43 AM
Backlash - a rise in the cat lady population for the future? whoa

TxsGal3333's photo
Fri 12/01/17 07:14 AM
Sure there is going to be a lot more to come and sure some that was only joking innocently will be taking serious when it should not be...

It is all geared towards men right now you will find suits finally against women as well. For anyone that thinks it is only men is wrong... just the men would take it as a adventure instead at times and not be offended on the slightest remark...

I understand reporting when it has gone way too far but I do understand that some are just joking around.. And many women let it get too far by joking around back with them.

The last 23 years I have worked around men only, yeah they joke around but then it does not bother me, hell I get right in there and joke with them.. I have had some hit on me I just laughed it off of course some was in a position to fire me but it was all in fun most of the time... Guys talk sexual if you shut most of them down they quit...

I understand some have went over the line and should be dealt with but some of it could be harmless banter that some are being too sensitive and just want to jump on the band wagon reporting... and yet they were right there adding to the mix... leading others to believe they were kewl with joking around..whoa


msharmony's photo
Fri 12/01/17 08:51 AM

so, at a painting event, a guy says about someones picture, " oh, if you turn the picture sideways, it looks like a womans breast".. she took offence to that remark.. (this was not a work situation.)
a big deal was made about it .. was that sexual harassment?
I think some people need to get a life.


I agree. I brought up the same point at a sexual harassment training where it was explained that harassment didn't have to happen at work as long as it was a coworker who 'felt' harassed, because they were going to have an 'uncomfortable' work environment.

Work is not a spa for our comfort and pleasure, although noone should be INTENTIONALLY going out of their way to make us uncomfortable.

I feel that, yes, along with a long line of other cultural trends screwing with the male/female dynamic, how men and women interact anywhere with other men and women they happen to work with is going to change for fear of future 'retaliatory' claims of harassment.

I also see politics about to change tremendously with the new weapon of women that can end careers by having a 'me too' story that requires no proof and has no statute of limitations ...

yellowrose10's photo
Fri 12/01/17 08:56 AM

Sure there is going to be a lot more to come and sure some that was only joking innocently will be taking serious when it should not be...

It is all geared towards men right now you will find suits finally against women as well. For anyone that thinks it is only men is wrong... just the men would take it as a adventure instead at times and not be offended on the slightest remark...

I understand reporting when it has gone way too far but I do understand that some are just joking around.. And many women let it get too far by joking around back with them.

The last 23 years I have worked around men only, yeah they joke around but then it does not bother me, hell I get right in there and joke with them.. I have had some hit on me I just laughed it off of course some was in a position to fire me but it was all in fun most of the time... Guys talk sexual if you shut most of them down they quit...

I understand some have went over the line and should be dealt with but some of it could be harmless banter that some are being too sensitive and just want to jump on the band wagon reporting... and yet they were right there adding to the mix... leading others to believe they were kewl with joking around..whoa




I agree! Some are too sensative or want attention and it takes away from real victims

Tom4Uhere's photo
Fri 12/01/17 09:52 AM


Sure there is going to be a lot more to come and sure some that was only joking innocently will be taking serious when it should not be...

It is all geared towards men right now you will find suits finally against women as well. For anyone that thinks it is only men is wrong... just the men would take it as a adventure instead at times and not be offended on the slightest remark...

I understand reporting when it has gone way too far but I do understand that some are just joking around.. And many women let it get too far by joking around back with them.

The last 23 years I have worked around men only, yeah they joke around but then it does not bother me, hell I get right in there and joke with them.. I have had some hit on me I just laughed it off of course some was in a position to fire me but it was all in fun most of the time... Guys talk sexual if you shut most of them down they quit...

I understand some have went over the line and should be dealt with but some of it could be harmless banter that some are being too sensitive and just want to jump on the band wagon reporting... and yet they were right there adding to the mix... leading others to believe they were kewl with joking around..whoa

I agree! Some are too sensative or want attention and it takes away from real victims

I agree too.
The laws are in place to protect those that are victimized but it can be used as a retalitory strike against a foe or as a method to get rid of the competition.

Joe Blo is up next in line for promotion, then me. I'll wage a sexual harassment complaint against him and get him fired so I get the position. So I start taking offense at anything he says or does to me and build a "history of harassment" that justifies the charges I file. It may not even be a promotion, senority has value as well.
Thing is most HR depts are told any harassment litigation is bad so, people are let go before litigation to preserve the company's reputation. I KNOW this was fact with the company I worked for because they stated it in our compliance training.

Tom4Uhere's photo
Fri 12/01/17 10:07 AM


so, at a painting event, a guy says about someones picture, " oh, if you turn the picture sideways, it looks like a womans breast".. she took offence to that remark.. (this was not a work situation.)
a big deal was made about it .. was that sexual harassment?
I think some people need to get a life.


I agree. I brought up the same point at a sexual harassment training where it was explained that harassment didn't have to happen at work as long as it was a coworker who 'felt' harassed, because they were going to have an 'uncomfortable' work environment.

Work is not a spa for our comfort and pleasure, although noone should be INTENTIONALLY going out of their way to make us uncomfortable.

I feel that, yes, along with a long line of other cultural trends screwing with the male/female dynamic, how men and women interact anywhere with other men and women they happen to work with is going to change for fear of future 'retaliatory' claims of harassment.

I also see politics about to change tremendously with the new weapon of women that can end careers by having a 'me too' story that requires no proof and has no statute of limitations ...

Uncomfortable Work Environment is not a legal definition of Workplace Harassment. However, it can be a company policy item.
http://www.dol.gov/oasam/programs/crc/2011-workplace-harassment.htm

EEO Process – The Department's(Dept of Labor) Harassing Conduct Policy is not intended to replace an employee's EEO rights. An employee may pursue claims of harassing conduct through both avenues simultaneously.


http://www.eeoc.gov/federal/upload/dol.html
701
Purpose.
This Policy is intended to assure that the Department of Labor is taking all necessary steps to prevent sexual harassment and other forms of harassing conduct in the workplace, and to correct harassing conduct that does occur before it becomes severe or pervasive. It updates the Department of Labor's long-standing policy on harassment in light of the Supreme Court's decisions in Faragher v. Boca Raton, 524 U.S. 775 (1998), and Burlington Industries, Inc. v. Ellerth, 524 U.S. 742 (1998).

702
The Definition of Harassing Conduct.
For the purposes of this Policy, harassing conduct is defined as any unwelcome verbal or physical conduct based on any characteristic protected by law when:

The behavior can reasonably be considered to adversely affect the work environment; or

An employment decision affecting the employee is based upon the employee's acceptance or rejection of such conduct.

703 Policy Against Harassing Conduct.

This defines the responsibilities of the Dept of Labor but does not concern individual company/corporate HR policies.

If it actually goes to court, the specifics of the case will be under Dept of Labor.
A company/corporation can conduct inter-company actions as they determine best for their concerns.

If you are taken to court, not only could you be tried federally but also sued by the company AND the parties involved.

yellowrose10's photo
Fri 12/01/17 10:08 AM



Sure there is going to be a lot more to come and sure some that was only joking innocently will be taking serious when it should not be...

It is all geared towards men right now you will find suits finally against women as well. For anyone that thinks it is only men is wrong... just the men would take it as a adventure instead at times and not be offended on the slightest remark...

I understand reporting when it has gone way too far but I do understand that some are just joking around.. And many women let it get too far by joking around back with them.

The last 23 years I have worked around men only, yeah they joke around but then it does not bother me, hell I get right in there and joke with them.. I have had some hit on me I just laughed it off of course some was in a position to fire me but it was all in fun most of the time... Guys talk sexual if you shut most of them down they quit...

I understand some have went over the line and should be dealt with but some of it could be harmless banter that some are being too sensitive and just want to jump on the band wagon reporting... and yet they were right there adding to the mix... leading others to believe they were kewl with joking around..whoa

I agree! Some are too sensative or want attention and it takes away from real victims

I agree too.
The laws are in place to protect those that are victimized but it can be used as a retalitory strike against a foe or as a method to get rid of the competition.

Joe Blo is up next in line for promotion, then me. I'll wage a sexual harassment complaint against him and get him fired so I get the position. So I start taking offense at anything he says or does to me and build a "history of harassment" that justifies the charges I file. It may not even be a promotion, senority has value as well.
Thing is most HR depts are told any harassment litigation is bad so, people are let go before litigation to preserve the company's reputation. I KNOW this was fact with the company I worked for because they stated it in our compliance training.


I agree. Some use it for benefit or attention. Some just have thin skins. Others are legit.

I get someone making you uncomfortable. I have spoken up and said no. After that...game on.

Tom4Uhere's photo
Fri 12/01/17 10:22 AM
Another example with a different view happened to a shop manager I knew in Pittsburgh.

The police (DOT) put one of his trucks out of service for maintenance issues. It was not safe for the road.
He complied and ordered the parts to fix it but his General Manager brought pressure to bear and made him put the truck back into service before fixing the problem.
The company had a written policy that stated 'no unit shall be put into service that is unsafe'.
While the unit was down for repairs the manager was within the law.
When he allowed that unit to go back on the road without being fixed, because his job was threatened, the police arrested the manager. It was his signature on the releasing work order. Technically, not only did he break the DOT OOS citation, he violated company policy.
He spent 6 months in jail and was fired.

He sued the company on harassment and won because two of his mechanics witnessed the GM threaten him.
The GM was consequently fired and charged with harassment. He also sued the GM and won for defamation of character. Last I heard, he is now the General Manager of the same company.

no photo
Fri 12/01/17 11:17 AM

Well, sexual harassment is still here in New Zealand. I just quit one of my jobs because the owner of the Restuarant kept being vulgar.
The last straw was when working alone with him, out of the blue,he asked me what I liked in bed. I asked him 3 times to repeat what he said, because I did not believe what I was hearing.
I looked at him and said, "That is private".
Then I went home, rang my actual boss and explained that I will never go back.
I wont file anything. that is too emotionally demanding.
But, yup. The creeps are still not learning...


Sorry that you had to quit your job to stop being harassed. I was the recipient of sexual harassment at a job & I was lucky in that they fired the guy. I didn't get any backlash only because I told a male supervisor about it & he reported my boss. It is so intimating to work for someone who treats you that way. I remember getting sick to my stomach every day before work.

Ladywind7's photo
Fri 12/01/17 05:42 PM


Well, sexual harassment is still here in New Zealand. I just quit one of my jobs because the owner of the Restuarant kept being vulgar.
The last straw was when working alone with him, out of the blue,he asked me what I liked in bed. I asked him 3 times to repeat what he said, because I did not believe what I was hearing.
I looked at him and said, "That is private".
Then I went home, rang my actual boss and explained that I will never go back.
I wont file anything. that is too emotionally demanding.
But, yup. The creeps are still not learning...


Sorry that you had to quit your job to stop being harassed. I was the recipient of sexual harassment at a job & I was lucky in that they fired the guy. I didn't get any backlash only because I told a male supervisor about it & he reported my boss. It is so intimating to work for someone who treats you that way. I remember getting sick to my stomach every day before work.

Thanks Chris, I am good
I found a better job and all is well.

no photo
Fri 12/01/17 06:21 PM
I found myself is a situation at work as the doctor of operations of a pretty large company where a woman who works in the office came into me to complain that the CFO was sexually harassing her. He would corner her in hallways and rub up against her and make unwanted advances. 3 additional woman came forth to me as well. Similar M.O's. He was slick, he zeroed in on lower pay scale office workers, young women with not much business experience. They were just learning. Some were single, some married.. made no difference to him.. pure predator.

To tell you the truth I really didn't know what to do.. after all he was the CFO. The number 2 man in the corporation. But I went to HR, told the HR director to get a lawyer to investigate the woman's claims. With the CFO having no knowledge. And I stepped back out of it as not to be involved in the investigate.

Long story short, the lawyer recommended firing the CFO, Based on the allegations she heard. She deemed them credible... so did I.

I took this report to the President of the company, he was upset by the allegations. ( his wife was livid) but he did not fire the CFO. I just shook my head. I remember thinking, "are you kidding me!"

Over the next 2 months all of the women resigned. None sort damages.. they just left.

I felt terrible. because I knew in my heart and mind, that they were telling the truth. They had no reason to lie.. none.

I did get to go to his office when it was his time to tell his story to the lawyer ( which he had no idea was even in the building) and say to him. " come with me, someone wants to talk to you".. felt good.. but short lived.

I left about a year later.

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