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| Topic: do you think people are capable of change? | |
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Give them a crocodile sandwich and make it snappy!
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bring it back from specifics to generatlizing what is change what is involved in making it stick? Acceptance Yes....the most important Key is acceptance. Without that, all the desire and commitment in the world won't bring about a change. |
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 bring it back from specifics to generatlizing what is change what is involved in making it stick? Acceptance Yes....the most important Key is acceptance. Without that, all the desire and commitment in the world won't bring about a change. |
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his reasoning? it's in our genes why fight it
my reasoning? it's in our genes fight like a mutha fuka Hi Tmommy and thank you for such an important topic. I'm not sure if basic personality traits can be changed but I believe they can be understood and controlled or at least kept in check some of the time. The brain is complex and effected by physical injury, chemical imbalance, abusive environments which in part forms who we are. This will certainly effect a person's ability to change, to choose or even know right from wrong. Behavior can be changed and like you stated early in the chat we (humans) make choices everyday. I think in the case of addiction it's important to have a support group. Friends, family, mentor, church or someone to offer love, understanding and sincere, meaningful help when needed. People can change, we can choose to change but we have to want to change and even then, as you eloquently stated, fight like a M.F. |
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Okay, I finally read enough (not everything) so I can see that although you posted this as a very broad question (Can people REALLY change?), it's really mainly about alcoholism for you. That's important, because it totally changes my answer. Makes it simpler.
The vast majority of people who are either medical or social-support type alcoholism experts all agree that it is MOST important for the potential alcoholic NEVER think that they can change. That they should ALWAYS think of themselves as an alcoholic in remission, at most. And this has nothing to do with any calculation of how dedicated they may be, how moral, how genuinely caring about their families, or how tough or how disciplined they can be or ANY other factor or character judgment. It is a purely functional approach to what has come to be recognized a more biological than a psychological condition. Addiction behavior of all kinds is the same. Some people can take heroin, or snort cocaine on and off at will, and never have a problem (other than with the law). Others are born susceptible to addiction, and can't EVER indulge. It is a sign of real character and personal strength that the alcoholic DOES maintain always that they are an alcoholic, in fact. |
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Edited by
TMommy
on
Fri 08/04/17 12:57 PM
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mmmm..it is more like I am a walking contradicition on this one
something I was not really aware of on the surface level I believe anyone is capable of change my logical brain accepts this as truth but yet..there are many who cannot do it or is it will not.. that is the question is it specifically about being addicted mmmm...the conversation spurred the thread topic because in my mind there seems to be a division line those who can change those who cannot wonder how much of this is based on my experiences clouding my judgement the thread is about change are we all capable of it what makes one succeed while another fails yes this is a topic close to my heart but you can discuss it from a philosophical or academic point of view and it can be about anything or anyone you know that has made some definite and lasting changes in their life |
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mmmm..it is more like I am a walking contradicition on this one something I was not really aware of on the surface level I believe anyone is capable of change my logical brain accepts this as truth but yet..there are many who cannot do it or is it will not.. that is the question is it specifically about being addicted mmmm...the conversation spurred the thread topic because in my mind there seems to be a division line those who can change those who cannot wonder how much of this is based on my experiences clouding my judgement the thread is about change are we all capable of it what makes one succeed while another fails yes this is a topic close to my heart but you can discuss it from a philosophical or academic point of view and it can be about anything or anyone you know that has made some definite and lasting changes in their life this is a very interesting topic for me too and for us all. God bless your heart. thank you. |
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God bless? Remind me, who was it who turned the water into wine?
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I wouldn't laugh, Sir.
I think you know the answer. |
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ya know when you hear someone say oh a psych major? did you go into it to figure out why you are so screwed up? hahahaa..there's more than one grain of truth in that 
father was an alcoholic but folks divorced when I was five mom on other hand, was bi-polar so my brother and I grew up with someone who was either up and happy " get in car kids we're going shopping" or up and angry " get down on your knees with this toothbrush and clean that better" or down in dumps sad lighting candles and drinking beer dad we would see couple times a year but he was getting arrested for DUI's and going to court, lost many jobs along way and he was an educated man with two degrees so brother and I one year apart in age raised in same environment he chose to drink. I didn't his reasoning? it's in our genes why fight it my reasoning? it's in our genes fight like a mutha fuka Lady same story....Mum was bi-polar, Dad was an alcoholic....that was them I'm just heavily emotionally scared, but man do I have character...have walked the walk...it's about the spirit, no one can take that from you, I hear a lot of talk on this forum about Christ and the Bible, it's like school of the air. If you can take yourself off somewhere peaceful, eat well and exercise.... it will be hard, but it can be done....I was a very heavy drinker, don't know weather I was an alcoholic, but you could be forgiven for thinking so. Repair the spirit......go within or go without.... 
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imagine how many theoretical view points I have studied by now
from Freud to Jung to Erikson, Piaget, Carl Rogers, Skinner Rational emotive Gestalt CBT Behavioral Solution Focused System Choice/Reality psychoanalytic Adlerian Transactional Analysis not sure if it's a lacking somewhere in my education.. but none specifically deal with this concept of change but who knows..I am taking an addictions class this fall for an elective maybe I will learn something new 
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Edited by
lu_rosemary
on
Fri 08/04/17 02:28 PM
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Congratulations!!.
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Interesting conversation y'all have going here. The common thread is people being 'able' to change. I have a different take on change, You may have read this in my posts on other topics in the past. I had an alcohol problem in the past. I went to rehab and AA meetings for a few years. It taught me how to drink, basically. Most alcoholics see alcohol as a monster that destroys their lives. I saw my drinking as a weakness in myself. When I drank, I caused problems in my life, for that, I was an alcoholic. I gave up drinking for years. I stopped going to meetings and stopped beating myself up. I realized that I was the one that was weak. I took control of my life. I have a fully stocked bar in my house right now. Its mainly there for entertaining purposes. I do enjoy a nice drink every once in awhile but I never get drunk anymore, ever. I can fully control myself now. Lots of alcoholics will tell you it is one day at a time. I have taught myself to live one moment at a time. When you face death and survive it gives you a new perspective on things. It changes you. Not knowing or expecting a tomorrow also changes you. It gives you a special push to have control of yourself in the moment. Everybody is always in a state of change. From the moment you are conceived you change. There is no actual baseline personality. Your personality is a construct of the moments of your life. You are who you are now because of those moment by moment changes. What is perceived as baseline personality is repetition based on perception. Change the perception and the personality changes accordingly. Moment by moment. When we see others we want them to change to fit our impression of who we think they should be. Perhaps it is because we think it is easier to understand and accept others if they are what we believe they should be. Our expectations give us continuity when they justify. Its a social battle we fight on a personal level. Being alone on this planet among billions of others allows me to let others be themselves. I know that the only person I have power to change is myself. The most I can do is try to understand others as the people they are. Problem is, a lot of people I meet have no idea who they really are and are not in control of themselves. I've learned to accept that as well. I don't want you to change. You be you and I'll be me and if we click together we will have something, if not, you go your way, I'll go mine. Top post....well thought and logical... |
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The larger idea about people changing in fundamental ways, has fascinated me for decades.
Something that makes it tricky to tell if it has even happened, is that it's often hard to tell the difference between a change of METHOD, and an actual change of MIND. I've found that a lot of the time, the people who have seemed to change the most, have actually changed the least. Like a left wing fanatic who switches and becomes a right wing fanatic, thus revealing that what they actually were all along, was only one thing: someone who feels the need to tell everyone else how to live. I've known druggies and drinkers who one day declared they had an epiphany about it all, and turned into rabid anti-intoxicants fanatics, for example. They didn't actually change at all. They just went from getting a kick out of being drunk or high, to getting a kick out of feeling self-righteous. |
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The larger idea about people changing in fundamental ways, has fascinated me for decades. Something that makes it tricky to tell if it has even happened, is that it's often hard to tell the difference between a change of METHOD, and an actual change of MIND. I've found that a lot of the time, the people who have seemed to change the most, have actually changed the least. Like a left wing fanatic who switches and becomes a right wing fanatic, thus revealing that what they actually were all along, was only one thing: someone who feels the need to tell everyone else how to live. I've known druggies and drinkers who one day declared they had an epiphany about it all, and turned into rabid anti-intoxicants fanatics, for example. They didn't actually change at all. They just went from getting a kick out of being drunk or high, to getting a kick out of feeling self-righteous. A lot of truth in that. I think it has a lot to do with the compulsions we have. Changes in specific behaviors can change but there is still the underlying compulsion that we can't see. For a simple example; You have a compulsion to spin three times before you enter a room. You change; You now jump three times before entering a room. The underlying compulsion is still there even tho you changed your method to satisfy it. Real changes occur when the underlying compulsion changes. For me, I fought my drinking problem for years but never addressed the underlying compulsion. Once I figured out why I was drinking like that, I gained control and drinking became a non-event. I think it is the same with any real change we make. We figure out what it is that we want to change and change the imperative instead of the method. |
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Behaviour is closely linked to beliefs and value systems .. I disagree Igor .. the change is obvious .. In finding what you term as self righteousness they were able to quit an addiction .. not just a behavioural change .. there is an obvious change in what they value .. drugs/anti drugs .. a complete shift in thinking and perhaps that is what it takes for that person not to relapse 
I understand what you are stating. If you make a change from something that is detrimental to something that is not harmful it is better for you and should be regarded as a positive change. If you change your drinking to shopping it is much less dangerous to yourself and others. But...If you leave the compulsion that drove you to have that drinking problem unaddressed then shopping can become a problem for you eventually. It isn't the act that needs changed it is the inspiration for the act. That is why many people substitute one addiction for another. They haven't addressed the compulsion that drives their destructive behavior. |
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Edited by
IgorFrankensteen
on
Sat 08/05/17 05:21 AM
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Behaviour is closely linked to beliefs and value systems .. I disagree Igor .. the change is obvious .. In finding what you term as self righteousness they were able to quit an addiction .. not just a behavioural change .. there is an obvious change in what they value .. drugs/anti drugs .. a complete shift in thinking and perhaps that is what it takes for that person not to relapse
Look, I know that it might APPEAR that I am saying that no change is real, or that I am trying to denigrate people who try to improve, but fail to completely rewrite themselves. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have always applauded anyone who finds a way to effect more positive behaviors from themselves, even if they do it by "cheating" in some way. One small example I saw a long time ago now, was a poor fellow who was a sufferer of Tourette's Syndrome. One of it's results, was that he felt compelled to blurt out obscenity and vile insults whenever he saw strangers of any kind. In particular, every time he saw a black person, he started to say "N-word" over and over. He found a way to deal with it, which was to give himself a supply of other words which he could steer his compulsion into, such as saying "nickels and dimes" instead. That's a classic example of someone who COULD NOT change their (in this case biological) nature, but found a work-around of sorts, in order to lead a more positive life. I'm entirely in favor of that. What my point is, goes back to the opening question, of whether or not people can or can't FUNDAMENTALLY change. I'm saying that they can, HOWEVER, it's extremely difficult, and extremely rare. And, that it SEEMS to be less rare than it is, because so many people DO find "work arounds" and tricks to make it APPEAR to themselves and others that they have changed, when all they've really done, is to slightly alter their visible behavior to be more pleasing. |
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woowee there are some smart boogerbutts on this site..hahaa ya know I love ya and appreciate the input
I will read and contemplate uh after my coffee kicks in 
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People change incrementally on a daily basis due to external and internal factors. However, if you're talking about deep fundamental changes in ethics, moral compass, thought processes, behavior, etc. then I'd say it is much less likely and frequent.
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imagine how many theoretical view points I have studied by now from Freud to Jung to Erikson, Piaget, Carl Rogers, Skinner Rational emotive Gestalt CBT Behavioral Solution Focused System Choice/Reality psychoanalytic Adlerian Transactional Analysis not sure if it's a lacking somewhere in my education.. but none specifically deal with this concept of change but who knows..I am taking an addictions class this fall for an elective maybe I will learn something new
I am sure you will be looking forward to getting away from the study and practicing .. but you know the study never goes away .. right .. professional development and proving competence is ongoing .. welcome to the world of health 
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