I have to concur dragoness. An easy target that is as usual; a ploy for something else.

Jist; I also have been homeless and without a way to get around. I have slept in cars, in a tunnel under the street. I have slep in a shed. I also had no help from our so called good ole government. One must have an address to get said help. Ha!! My help also came from outsiders, good people that cared. What I took from that; is pay it forward. I learned gratitude. I learned that it takes all kinds, and that we are alone if and until someones heart speaks to them. I learned humanity.
Kat

gardenforge
"they are hardened criminals"

Personally.. I'm not in this thread to discuss who is or is not a bigot. It really serves no purpose in the grand scheme of things.

You are absolutely correct. There is a segment of the illegal population that have chosen the criminal route. This is also true with any other mass exodus to this country in history. The Irish, the Italians... I could go on and on... Each time, they immediately assume the role of outer fringe, less than. Just during yours and my life time it has happened twice.

Remember all the turmoil in the 70's when we saw a huge influx of south Asian people enter? If we had the Internet then.. we would be having the same discussion, only it would be about Vietnamese, Cambodians, Thai, Koreans.... Opening little markets in our neighborhoods, taking our jobs...

When in fact..they were not. They put a store where one was not, before they showed up.

Some of them created gangs.. some of the worst gangs we had seen in a long time. They out did the Italian Mafia in violence and crime in many western U.S. cities, as I am sure they did everywhere.

How about the Cuban boatlift in 1980? Can you see the pattern just in our lifetime? If not, it is not that difficult to see in other influxes as far back as the 1600's



Now we are seeing an influx of Mexican, Central And South Americans entering, both legally and illegally. As a result.. the same thing is happening that always happens. They are the supply to a market. Whether it be the drug market, the gambling market, the prostitution market, or the cheap labor market.

Lets say we put a wall around our country.. Like China tried a long time ago.. or East Berlin tried in the 60's...and we staff that wall with thousands of soldiers. Then we evict every illegal. Wouldn't you think it a reasonable conclusion. knowing that both the China Dynasty and Eastern Block Berlin failed... Despite their walls?
Is it an unfounded conclusion that no matter how hard we try... the ones that are outside and want in will get in eventually? Everyone that has tried it has faded into history. We are not above that.

The only way to keep them out is to eliminate the reason they come. They come for jobs, and opportunity in the underworld. Today's underworld is funded by the drug trade.

So.. If we were to evict anyone.. Maybe we should evict the ones who choose to use cheap labor and the active addicts.

That makes more sense to me.

Fanta brings up one instance of a manufacturer being busted. I'm sure for every one successful sting operation there are hundreds of other corporations flying under the wire. Just as for every drug dealer caught there are a hundred waiting in the wings to take their place.

We can potentially go on and on.. into perpetuity...doing the same crap that other countries have already tried. That we have already tried...Or we can manage it from an entirely new direction.

Generally speaking.. In my life? When something I am doing is not working? I do not start embellishing what ever I am doing with more of whatever I am doing. I change it. Especially if I am doing something someone else did..and fell flat on their face before me.

scttrbrain: "I learned humanity."

Yes.. Funny thing is... In my early twenties, before I had that experience? If we were having this conversation... I would be on the other side of the discussion. However.. sometimes life lessons come in some pretty tough experiences.

Before I could really understand the human condition and the dynamic of humanity... I had to learn humility.

Jistme; Exactly....I was also one that would be on that other side of that coin.
Humility was just one of my teachers.

Kat

Fanta,

Did you bother to corroborate
those statistics with the
data on the FBI's web site?

That sounds remarkably like
an urban legend.

Here's a link on the subject:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/LindaChavez/2006/08/23/banishing_factoids

Before publishing such statistics
as fact, a little fact-checking
is in order first.

http://www.congress.org/congressorg/bio/userletter/?id=158&letter_id=1354780601



here ya go


looks the same


is congress site good enough

and for those idiots that are calling racist underlying agenda


does that mean if the murderer is guilty of the crime
they should not be punished (now that is racist)

you need to do your homework b4 calling anyone a racist

i am pretty sure if you look to find them

you will see where it has been said that those that come here legally have every right to be here

it is the racism of the criminal you speak of then yes i must agree with the anti-criminal element

and criminals need to be dealt with

so yes i suffer from the anti criminal infliction

adj, that was a letter written to said Senator from someone residing in Huntsville, AL. Note the last paragraph.



"ACTION: Please share this data with elected officials. However, NONE of this will matter IF our borders are not secured OR Pres. Bush succeeds in abolishing them (via his SPP, NAU, NAFTA Hwy), AND OUR NATIONS SOVEREIGNTY.

huntsville , AL"

Spoo! Forgot the header to that.



"
Senator Richard C. Shelby (R-AL)
4th-term Republican from Alabama.
Photo: Senator Shelby
Bio & Contact Info
Send Message
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Letters To Leaders
· More Letters to
Sen. Shelby

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Letters To Leaders
All messages are published with permission of the sender. The general topic of this message is Gov't Operations:
Subject:
2006 (First Quarter) INS/ FBI Statistical Report on illegal aliens

To:
President George Bush
Sen. Richard Shelby
Sen. Jeff Sessions

August 14, 2007

2006 (First Quarter) INS/FBI Statistical Report on Undocumented Immigrants"

It is NOT a Congressional Report.

I don't care what's posted on congress.org

That means absolutely nothing.

We're talking FBI statistics here.

Where did Senator Selby get his information?

Check out this link:

http://anthonytrammel.blogspot.com/2007/10/internet-blogs-rumors-facts.html

Go to the FBI Statistics site and find this same information:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/index.html

Can you find it?

mnhiker, if your last post was directed at my post take note that I was agreeing with you. This is NOT a Congressional Report but rather a letter written to the Senator in question (Shelby R-AL.

very interesting


National Drug Intelligence Center
Arizona High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area Drug Market Analysis
May 2007
UNCLASSIFIED
Drug-Related Crime

Mexican DTOs and their affiliates are more sophisticated and significantly more violent than they were in the past. Enforcement arms of these DTOs have shot and otherwise injured law enforcement officials, rival DTO members, and gang members on both sides of the border. Drug traffickers now vigorously protect the product that they transport; they confront law enforcement directly or engage in high-speed chases to avoid arrest and interdiction. For instance, in 2006 several armed smugglers approached a National Guard station along the Arizona-Mexico border between Nogales and Lukeville in broad daylight wearing Soviet-style vests and carrying AK-47 assault rifles. No one was injured or killed during this confrontation; however, the incident illustrates the level of brazenness that Mexican DTOs employ in testing smuggling routes. Additionally, assault statistics indicate that drug smugglers have noticeably increased their level of violent assaults against USBP and other federal law enforcement officers and agents who protect the border. Although most of these assaults involve rockings, smugglers are increasingly ramming USBP vehicles, attempting to run over agents, and firing upon agents, often with automatic weapons.

Some smugglers, referred to as bajadores,5 rob other smugglers who successfully cross the border undetected, stealing their drug supplies, guns, and illegal aliens. Many bajadores reportedly commit such robberies while dressed as law enforcement officials. They obtain information regarding dates, times, and locations of smuggling events from informants working with both the smuggler and the bajadore. Once bajadores steal a shipment, the owners of the drugs usually attempt revenge, occasionally through execution-style homicides. Although most bajadores are low-level traffickers, some work for high-level Mexican DTOs in Phoenix or Tucson and are becoming increasingly violent.
End Note

5. Bajadores historically were Hispanic criminals; however, law enforcement reporting currently indicates that bajadores may or may not be Hispanic.

http://www.usdoj.gov/ndic/pubs22/22934/crime.htm

These statistics
don't come from
the FBI at all,
but from Heather
McDonald of the
Manhattan Institute,
which is a right wing
non-profit think tank!!!

Check this out:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

I am referring to
the first post of
FBI statistics,
not what adj4u
just posted.

Illegal immigration
crime is a problem,
but, come on,
don't believe
all of the hype
or statistics.

At least get
accurate, unbiased
information.

mnhiker,
Good point. I didn't even bother to read what he so brilliantly copied and pasted..

The reality is.. in my experience, that much of the drug dealing and trafficking is being taken over by the Latin in our streets. The Black and Asian are still a party to it, but not as large as it used to be.. The Anglo Saxon White, at least up here... is the major consumer. A misnomer is (and has been mentioned in the other thread on this subject) that all of these folks are Mexican. Nope. I have met Haitians, People from Guatemala, Belize, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Columbia, Venezuela and Ecuador. As far south as Bolivia and Paraguay, in the streets of Portland and Seattle, dealing and armed.

So there is no doubt that there may be a rise in violence attributed to the "Illegals". Oddly, I have never met a Panamanian. I have no idea what that means.

But.. For all the money these various agencies are spending on this "war". You would think we would see a sizable reduction of addiction in our population. We aren't. There is a rise, by any statistic that is not spun.

Then there is meth... All of a sudden it has become the buzz! What many do not know, is meth has been an issue in our communities for several decades. It is not new.

In the early 80's, I lived about 45 miles from where I sit now. About halfway to the summit of the pass to Eastern Oregon. I often drove my motorcycle into and out of town. I could smell the labs as I went by. As many as 12 to 15. Back then I made really good money and was looking for property in a few of those valley's to invest in.. when all of a sudden.. a bunch came up for sale. All were right adjacent to that smell.

Now.. that our government and media have focused on the issue. Gotten a bit of a clue... We are controlling those substances that were used to produce meth domestically.

Not a problem. The "Super labs" just moved south and off shore. Maybe ship (Smuggle) the chemicals into the labs here. Or they use chemicals, recipes and processes that have not yet been identified. There are as many ways to make meth as there are people in a mid-size town.

For every "solution" we come up with.. the criminals have an answer. In that world.. "fool proof" and "no chance", are dares.

It is basic economics.

If you can make a product for $80.00, and sell it, ultimately to the end consumer for $800,000... How far would you go to insure, protect and expand your manufacturing, distribution and market?

Chances are.. if you play it right, maybe you could rise from the slums of a third world country to a very powerful and very rich man. Not much different then those folks that took advantage of all those pension funds earlier in this decade. Just those guys will live in a white collar prison, as opposed to general population in a federal pen. Even the penitentiary is a substantial improvement over your lifestyle before...

How do we beat that by attacking the source?

I bet each and every one of you that reads this knows at least two people who would be tempted to try this, maybe has tried it. But did not have the motivation, simply because it jeopardized the lifestyle they were born into.

Take those two people and raise them in a shanty made of pallets, cardboard, and a corrugated piece of tin... Where they most likely drank from the same place they pissed. Where they sat with their Brothers and Sisters while Mom and Dad walked the 3 miles into town, to work for the middle class and wealthy, for pennies. When they got older..they were enlisted to peddle and con the tourists... maybe pick fruit.... School? Yea.. right.

What you will see..is a very determined, resourceful and ambitious individual. Who's morals are shaped by their experience.

If they have any level of natural intelligence, maybe even brilliance.. and most importantly...charm. It would be no surprise if you stand in their way... someone will push you out of his way, even if it kills you.

Law, as we understand it, makes little difference to someone from that world.

I agree, Jistme.

The illegals might be
making, transporting
and selling the meth,
but they aren't the only
ones.

Nor are they the only
ones using it.

I also agree that the
Latins all get lumped
into the category of
Mexicans.

I think identifying
who is in this country
illegally can be done
by requiring employers
to check identification.

And the identification has
to be made so it is
not easily counterfeited.

I don't hear many people
talking about this.

Fences are not going to
keep them out.

Nor are minute men or
any of the other 'solutions'
being proposed.

well


i would rather see a copy and paste (properly accredited)

than someones personal spin

but spin is fine

if they show how they came up with it

and for the record

i must admit i could not find documentation yet
from ins or the fbi web sites for stats that have been posted

but that does not make them false but does lead to credability issue

but if you notice this header from previous post

National Drug Intelligence Center
Arizona High Intensity Drug Trafficking Area Drug Market Analysis
May 2007
UNCLASSIFIED
Drug-Related Crime

not the word UNCLASSIFIED

which would lead a reasonable person

to understand some reports are classified

which maybe those stats may be or maybe not

regardless of whether they are correct or not

one thing is undeniable

every illegal alien in any country of the world

is a law breaker whether you admit it or not

and for those that say are you native american

grow up it is not relevant parts of the country was bought and paid for others were received threw negotiations

whether fair or not that is how it was

and yes i am native united states citizen born here from generations born here

"And the identification has
to be made so it is
not easily counterfeited"

Funny.. Oregon recently advanced their technology. They have put in place a facial recognition software, incorporated into their state I.D.. As it turns out.... I needed to reinstate my I.d.. Which used to be a simple task of going, proving you are who you say you are, filling out a few forms, paying then getting a picture taken.. and walking out with a new I.D.

Now.. you get a paper I.D. to substitute till your real I.D. card is sent in the mail. It may be good enough to cash a check, show an Oregon cop... But I needed to get on a plane and travel to the east coast! It was not good enough, according to a random TSA agent who I stopped and asked, while I was waiting in line to check in... He said I probably would be able to get on the plane, but chances are... I would not be able to get back. His last post was in Atlanta... he would have never let me pass with a non laminated piece of paper.

I did not get on the plane in fear of getting stuck on the east coast. Later that day.. my real ID was in my mail box.

A few days later.. on the news. A woman from this area was stuck in Las Vegas. She had her paper I.D... I would imagine her real I.D card was in her mailbox here. Oregon can not send another to the address in Nevada. Greyhound and Amtrak would not take the substitute either. As far as I know.. the woman still may be in Las Vegas!

I'm glad I decided to come home. Rather then risk being stuck in Morth Carolina. For once, my common sense kicked in.

adj, when you say recieved through negotiations I assume that you mean treaties. Take a good look. Had the Treaties been kept (note: No treaty was ever broken by any of the signatory tribes but by whites) today's native nations would have a lot more land. Unfortunately gold and the need for more land by whites broke every treaty made. Even Mt. Rushmore was carved while the land belonged to the natives and without their permission.

The Trail of Tears was brought about getting the Cherokee off land that was theirs by Treaty.

As a person who claims native blood take a good look at the history of the native in North America.

btw Today the Cheyenne cannot perform age old ceremonies in the area of the Black Hills without permission of the Park Service. The Black Hills were called the heart of the Cheyenne Nation prior to arrival of Whites.




Strangely a satellite shot of Black Hills shows that it is formed like a human heart.