'TheLonelyWalker',

Let's pretend you are chief justice of the Supreme Court.

Now, being chief justice, your unconditional allegiance goes to the application of the laws, and ensuring that they are interpreted in the spirit of the Constitution.

Now, it wouldn't matter that you were Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, or atheist. As a matter of fact, a Chief Justice candidate would assuredly be turned downed, if signs of religious fundamentalism showed up throughout the interview process. A chief justice is first and foremost at the service of the just and thorough defense of the Constitution of the USA.

So in that light you now need to temporarily put your own personnal views, and religious bias aside, and objectively apply a legal cornerstone principle in most democracies which deals with effective 'separation of church and state'.

You would be in effect applying the First Amendment of your Constitution through its 'establishment clause'.

Here it is:

"...the ESTABLISHMENT CLAUSE which prohibits Congress from making any laws seeking 1) the establishment of a national religion, and 2) the preference of one religion over another..."

Plain and simple. In the public domain, the law of the land says NO NATIONAL RELIGION, and NO PREFERENCE OF ONE RELIGION OVER ANOTHER.

What happens at Church, at home, our any other 'private domain' instances, read 'private school, is fair game for whatever religious rituals.

But not so in the 'public' school system, or other public institutions, where you would be establishing a preference for one religion over another.

Pray if you wish, while others may pray if they wish, wherever and whenever, but silently, privately! No marketing needed, nor allowed!!!

You can rest assured, neither you, nor anyone else for that matter, whatever the religion, will ever be prosecuted, for praying silently, privately.

And that is how this great country of yours coame to be, and has grown to what it is today: separation of state and church.

Those whom don't understand that principle, and I don't imply you 'lonely', are fundamentalists causing much more harm to this country, and the true principles of freedom than anyone can imagine.

The separation of state and church is the cornerstone to our freedom. Before the sepration of state and church, there was no possible feedom!!! Let's never forget that.

I absolutely agree with u, my friend, but...


The Declaration of Independence of the Thirteen Colonies
In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of "NATURE'S GOD" entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.

He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.

He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.

He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.

He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.

He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.

He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.

He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.

He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.

He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the consent of our legislatures.

He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power.

He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:

For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:

For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:

For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:

For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:

For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:

For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:

For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies:

For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:

For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.

He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.

He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.

He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.

He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.

He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages, whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.

In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.

Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.

We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmenti

---------------------

what part of this is so hard to understand

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

this part
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

-------------------------

if it is a part of your religion to spread the word

and you are prohibited from doing so because of

-------------------------

from original post third paragraph

Due to a recent ruling by the Supreme Court, I am told that saying a Prayer is a violation of Federal Case Law.

--------------------------

is infringing on the 1st amendment

regardless of what religion it is

----------------------

do i like the idea of some one saying that

the god of blue leaves and praying to it

is the way to be

NO i don't

but it is there 1st amendment right to do so

---------------------

now if they are in a public payed forfront

then do they have less rights

maybe they should maybe they should not

but if you infringe on the public employee's rights

how long will it be before the rights

of those in public will be infringed on

-----------------------

you say i am paranoid----is it really paranoia

if it is true

how many smokers are permitted to smoke in public assess areas

in ohio none

if this was truly for health reasons (as they proclaim)

the option of installing an air purification system
to clean the smoke out of the air would be in the law

but it is not

---------------------

have you heard the phrase

give them an inch and they will take a mile

---------------------

you say this is off topic

is it really what is the topic

religion in public

or the infringement of rights

-----------------------

but hey what do i know

i really dislike arguing for organized religion

but what they want is an infringement of the rights

of the individual for the comfort of the masses

just a thought to ponder

should a homosexual

be prevented from

professing their homosexuality

in a public place if employed by the state

or should an ethnic group be banned for promoting

their ethnicity in a public place if a public employee

------

insert head scratching emoticon here

that is just my point
neither sexual preference nor ethnicity should be a basis for an individual or group to express him or themselves, so if the beautiful document called the constitution protects them
why should it not protect every other single human being for professing his/her faith.

I feel that we are so biased against christianity that sometimes we grab anything at reach to attack it.

"I feel that we are so biased against christianity that sometimes we grab anything at reach to attack it. "

TLW, I emphatically agree! We see this a lot in these threads, people so wrapped up in their 'position' they are unwilling to break things down and acknowledge the merit/value of any aspect of "the opposition's" line of thought/opinion/belief. And hating on Christianity seems to be seen as a good thing by some, regardless of context/situation/topic.

Now I'm not sure if you are commenting on the general opposition to the OP, or commenting on some of Red's comments, but....

I don't see the opposition to the OP's quote as 'hating on Christians for its own sake" - IMO that opening statement WAY oversteps what's appropriate in 'religious tolerance' in a school in the US. My opinion may be wrong, but it is not born from me leaping at a chance to hate on Christians.

Sure, there is some anti-Christian intolerance in this thread, but I also see people patiently and respectfully explaining the legitimate basis for their opposition to the opening quote.

oh my GOD (that's right,i said it),is this all you non believers do is hang out in religion chat trying to get your views across?.i never see you guys posting in any other sections.what the heck is with you people???Jeez...i just wanna get slap happy with every one of yall!

One reason I don't post much in other sections is high frequency of childish, contentless posts.

One reason I don't post much in other sections is high frequency of childish, contentless posts.

One reason I don't post much in other sections is high frequency of childish, contentless posts.

To Walker and Message,

You guys know that I’m always stating my views that the Bible was written by men and is not the word of any God.

This neither represents any hatred toward Christians, nor is it intended as an ‘attack’ against it. It’s simply a view that I believe has merit and should be shared with those who are interested.

Also, on a second note,… It’s the very nature of Christianity to ‘save’ people which amounts to ‘converting’ them to Christianity. Therefore Christianity is basically saying to everyone “YOU MUST BELIEVE THIS!”.

So it’s perfectly natural for people to react to that sentiment by offering their reasons why they believe that it’s not the word of God.

It’s the very nature of Christianity to make itself the focus of ‘attacks’ concerning it’s legitimacy simply because it does claim to be the only truth AND it’s constantly trying to convert people to that belief.

I mean, that’s the claim that it is making. It’s not just saying that for it’s own sake, but it’s trying to CONVINCE everyone else that they ALSO need to BELIEVE it!

This is why people are ‘fighting back’ with their own allegations of why they don’t believe it’s true.

Other religions don’t do this. Pantheists, for example, aren’t running around telling everyone that they must believe in pantheism or that God will hate them and send them to hell if they don’t believe it.

I mean, when a religion claims that it has the only truth, and it’s on a MISSION to covert everyone to believe that its true, then it’s perfectly natural that people are going to respond by pointing out all the flaws in that supposed ‘truth’.

Christianity brings these apparent ‘attacks’ on itself by it’s very nature of claiming to have the ONLY TRUTH that everyone MUST believe. And it even goes on mission to convert people to Christianity claiming that it is ‘saving’ them. In fact, some Christians claim that they won’t be happy until the whole world has been saved! That means that they are out to covert EVERYONE to Christianity!

That can be a pretty scary picture for people who aren’t interested in hearing it!

It’s perfectly natural that they are going to want to slay this monster called “Christianity” before it devours the entire Earth.

It’s a threat to many people.

How would you feel if Islam was threatening to convert the entire world to Islam?

I’ll bet you’d be quite upset about that!

"How would you feel if Islam was threatening to convert the entire world to Islam?"


Abra,i hope that was sarcasm because if you haven't noticed.they are doing that!

Abra,
I agree with your analysis of common motives to debunk Christian beliefs, but must add that some people have been (or know people who have been) personally harmed in the name of Christianity and harbor hostility beyond the desire to debunk.. While understandable, that hostility can interfere with fairness, leading to Walkers legitimate criticism that some leap at any chance to attack Christianity.

Massage wrote:
"One reason I don't post much in other sections is high frequency of childish, contentless posts."

I was going to say the same thing, but you said it enough for both of us.

Jtevens wrote:
“Abra,i hope that was sarcasm because if you haven't noticed.they are doing that!”

The rapid recent growth rate of Islam hasn’t been attributed to an accelerated effort to convert, but rather to an increasing hostility toward the USA.

If you want to blame someone for the rapid increased in Islam you need only look to the White House.

Perhaps using Islam as an example at this point in history was a mistake. I was actually going to suggest imagining pantheists attempting to convert the world to pantheism. But since pantheists never attempt to convert anyone I thought that would be a silly example.

very interesting

i must have a white font

all I'm saying is that most of the attacks focus only and exclusively to the christian religion, which seems not fair at all to me.
every religion has its flaws, why we focus just in christianity.

Abra said:

"How would you feel if Islam was threatening to convert the entire world to Islam?

I’ll bet you’d be quite upset about that! "

No Islam is not interested in converting the world to it's philosophy, it would rather eliminate those who don't adhere to it. That is what upsets me.

This is a statement that was read over the PA system at the football game at a Public High School, near you, by school Principal, Dyanara Redykeuleous.

"It has always been the custom at our High School football games, to say a prayer and play the National Anthem, to honor God and Country."

Due to a "not so" recent ruling by the Supreme Court, I am told that saying a Prayer in a public school is a violation of Federal Case Law. As I understand the law at this time, I can use this public facility to approve immigration and allowing millions of uneducated, non English speaking migrant workers to add more dependency on our already stretched aid programs," and if someone is offended, that's OK.

I can use it to condone sexual promiscuity among teens whose Sunday best parents don’t believe their child could be having sex, by dispensing condoms and calling it, "safe sex." If someone is offended, that's OK.

I can even use this public facility to present the merits of killing innocent children in the middle east, acceptable side effect of an illegal war, If someone is offended, n o problem...

I can designate a school day as “cult awareness day” and warning of the tactics some major religious fundamentalists use to take advantage of people.

I can use historical literature, videos and presentations in the classroom that document the horrors that religious factions have wrought for many centuries and call it enlightenment.

However, if anyone uses this facility to honor Sai Baba and to ask HIM to Bless this event with safety and good sportsmanship, then Federal Case Law is violated.

This appears to be inconsistent at best and, at worst, diabolical, for who can deny the living?

Apparently, we are to be tolerant of churches and temples and tabernackles on every corner, and of anyone whose religious views would send another to the heat of the netherlands, but we can not except a living example of the holy oneness of the universe, and the mission HE was sent here for.

Nevertheless, as a school principal, I frequently ask staff and students to abide by rules with which they do not necessarily agree. For me to do otherwise would be inconsistent at best and, at worst, hypocritical.

For this reason, I shall not request that everyone take part in an Om to holy Oneness of the universe, however, since we are a nation that believes in freedom of speech and freedom of religion, I will allow everyone a moment to pray, while the 10th chorus entertains us with an Om.

"However, if you feel inspired to join in praise, the 9th grade has produced pamphlets of the Om that His Holiness Sai Baba has taught. For those who might prefer to remain silent, you may enjoy reading the words of a great philosopher, Buddah on the back of the pamphlet, please feel free to do so. And now the choir, as far as I know, that's not against the law...yet."

And all the while as the Principal spoke, the pamphlets were distributed throughout the stands.

The rest I leave up to you - what would have happened? How would any of you have felt, what might you have done - BE HONEST, imagine you were actually there and seeing and hearing this. How would you have reacted?

Nietzche said: "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently. "