my friend it was the declaration of independance.

Sorry M, I get overexcited sometimes and confuse myself....

Redy's and DJ's posts were about the constitution but as you point our, yours was indeed the declaration of independence.

My mistake.

BTW my friend
The point of my argument never has been to convert anybody to christianity that is not my job.
My only point is, Ok people you got your rights to be whatever you want to be (awesome), but now that you have it don't abuse it, and let those who want to be christian just be.
Notice, I'm not defending extremist fanatics because I don't feel that is the right way to live.

BTW, speaking of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian either, although he did admire Jesus, just as many here have expressed their admiration for his teachings. As you may recall, I also attend Unitarian Universalist services regularly...

"Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

http://www.monticello.org/reports/interests/religion.html

Jefferson was also a proponant of seperation of church and state.

"The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was mentioned in an eloquent letter written by President John Tyler on July 10, 1843. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. This led to popular and political discussion of the concept, including criticism that it overstates the limits created under the Constitution."

The Declaration of Independence declared America's freedom from the Kingdom of Great Britain. It was drafted in 1776.

The ideas in the Declaration of Independence, drafted by 33-year-old Thomas Jefferson with help by other Founders, were powerful. Invoking the authority of God frequently throughout the document, the Declaration contains the most striking legal statement of all time: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness." The phrase "that all men are created equal" was original to the Declaration of Independence and was quoted frequently by Abraham Lincoln (e.g., in the Gettysburg Address) and by other future Americans.

There is an interesting issue as to whether Jefferson simply copied the substance of the Declaration of Independence from the Virginia Declaration of Rights, which was published earlier and would have been in Jefferson's possession when he drafted the Declaration.

Regardless, the Declaration of Independence drew upon Christianity and the Enlightenment English philosopher John Locke. In his famous work "Two Treatises on Government" (1690), Locke declared that all men have the natural (inalienable) rights of "life, liberty and estate (property)." Adam Smith, the great economist, modified this to be "life, liberty and the pursuit of property." Notably the Declaration of Independence does not emphasize a right to pursue property, however, speaking instead in favor of pursuit of "happiness".

Locke is a very interesting philosopher and another strong proponant of seperation of church and state.

"Locke's arguments for religious toleration connect nicely to his account of civil government. Locke defines life, liberty, health and property as our civil interests. These are the proper concern of a magistrate or civil government. The magistrate can use force and violence where this is necessary to preserve civil interests against attack. This is the central function of the state. One's religious concerns with salvation, however, are not within the domain of civil interests, and so lie outside of the legitimate concern of the magistrate or the civil government. In effect, Locke adds an additional right to the natural rights of life, liberty, health and property — the right of freedom to choose one's own road to salvation. "

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke/#LocRelTol

Locke also theorized that the mind was a "blank slate" or "tabula rasa". This was in contrast to the Cartesian or Christian philosophies of the day. Locke maintained that people are born without innate ideas- no "original sin".

I strongly support the idea that the church has nothing to do with the government.
My friend we agree in that one.
what we apparently won't agree is in 2 issues:

1) Witnessing a public prayer is absolutely harmless (notice the word WITNESS).
2) Once the people that at some point were unfairly discriminated got their rights, they should be happy with that, and not try to alianate the rights of other people who remain traditional.

i agree with you as well that any kind of pressure from school officials upon students to follow any kind of religious belief is just wrong.

And as a conclusion, I withdraw this issue because we won't ever agree, and I rather keep your frienship than win an argument. As a matter of fact an argument can't be lost or won. The only purpose of an argument is to let the audience know my points of view, and at least get the audience's acknowlegment of my views.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom Anoasis

this kinda proofs my point

about govt overstepping authority

COLUMBIA, S.C. - A 75-year-old woman who had known her family planned to shoot anyone who came on their land was convicted and sentenced to life in prison Friday for her role in the deaths of two law officers.

Bixby wasn't home at the time of the shooting


from
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21496164/


now tell me i am paranoid

------------------------

from thread

http://www.justsayhi.com/topic/show/46882?page=1

"i agree with you as well that any kind of pressure from school officials upon students to follow any kind of religious belief is just wrong."

Yes.

"The only purpose of an argument is to let the audience know my points of view, and at least get the audience's acknowlegment of my views. "

Argument? Who's arguing? I like to talk to all the people in Religion, partly because there are so few of us and I feel like I get to know these few better and partly because most of the people here think about these issues... they don't just regurgitate what they have been spoon fed.... so I respect their views even when I don't share them. As I respect you M.

"Thanks for sharing your wisdom Anoasis"

"wisdom" Hee hee...

you're so funny.

actually anoasis

you a pretty intelligent

most of the time





















boy i hope 3 dozen is enough

((((DJ)))))

3 dozen? Wow I don't think I've ever gotten more than 2 dozen before...



That must be for the "most of the time" huh?

I will let it go because you have the best cake, not to mention being made of marshmellows (at times).

BTW, I love your tree. So pretty.

I'm off to bed. You kids have fun...